Will I really see a difference?

[Floridaplumber]

Will I really see a difference?



Just joined the forum but have viewed a few times in the past. Hats off and thanks to Mike for all the valuable videos and info; I really enjoy them.

Not a pro, just an enthusiast who owns a DeWalt 849X rotary. Owned the old Black and Decker Buffmaster before that. I have some experience with rotary, but not sure I qualify as "good" with it..

Have done some minor damage in a few small spots over the years, but I've always enjoyed using the polisher and felt it always improved the appearance of the paint.

Lately, I've used Lake Country pads and various Menzerna polishes/compounds. The DeWalt is powerful, but can get heavy on vertical panels after a while. Seriously considering the new Flex Supa Beast forced rotation orbital.

My question is this: Does the orbital really improve the final finish over the straight rotary?

I keep reading about these holograms left by rotary polishing and I just don't see it after polishing my truck or wife's car.

Love the concept of it being safer and more aggressive than the random orbital polishers. Not being a pro, I figure there must be something to this orbital as all the pros seem to use them along with or instead of rotary machines.

As a professional plumber, I wouldn't hesitate to spend $435 on a tool I used every day. As a guy who just likes detailing and polishing, it's more than double what my DeWalt cost me, so it would be a big investment.

I've also read some don't like the fact that they rotate counter-clockwise. I am used to the clockwise rotation, but not sure that should be a deal breaker or matter at all.

Lighter? More comfortable to use? Most importantly, better results?

Welcome all input if you've used the new Beast, 3401, or even the Mille.

[glen e]

I own a flex 3403 rotary and a griots orbital. The only time I ever use my rotary is what I’m trying to do something like heavy correction, like after wet sanding. The orbital gets used 90% of the time for everything else. The two are very different animals. Yes an orbital with the proper pads and the proper product will make a surface gloss better than any other combination in the Detailing world, in my opinion.

[Mike Phillips]

Great post with great questions.

Actually, the questions you've asked are common questions from people that have historically used rotary buffers considering the switch to any type or brand of orbital polisher.

I'll answer your questions in-depth when I'm behind my full ergo keyboard instead of this laptop keyboard. (I hate typing on a laptop keyboard - my fingers make too many mistakes)


Because this is your first post...


Welcome to AutogeekOnline!

[FUNX650]

Just joined the forum but have viewed
a few times in the past. Hats off and
thanks to Mike for all the valuable videos
and info; I really enjoy them.


Not a pro, just an enthusiast who owns a
DeWalt 849X rotary...
I have some experience with rotary, but not
sure I qualify as "good" with it..

Have done some minor damage in a few small
spots over the years, but I've always enjoyed
using the polisher and felt it always improved
the appearance of the paint.

My question is this: Does the orbital really
improve the final finish over the straight rotary?
I keep reading about these holograms left by
rotary polishing and I just don't see it after polishing
my truck or wife's car.


I've also read some don't like the fact that
they rotate counter-clockwise. I am used to
the clockwise rotation...

“3401”

Without the aid of a “swirl finder” light source,
You may not be able to see any holograms

Which, IMO, begs the question:
‘Is that a bad thing’...(for your purposes)?

•As to clockwise vs. counter clockwise:
-Orbitals generally rotate clockwise. There
are exceptions. The “3401” comes to mind.


•Speaking of Mike Phillips:
-Mike advises to look at “The Big Picture”.

-As such...
His detailing experiences dictate that:
”an orbital polisher is used to re-polish
areas to remove the holograms left
over by rotary buffers”.


•With that in mind; and going forward:
-Kind of boils down to (of course IMO)
how much, if any, will it personally bother
you if there are holograms left over from
the action of rotary polishing?


Bob

[mk9750]

I can address one part of your post very simply.

I moved from a couple of off brand DAs that spin clockwise to the Flex 3401 with the "backwards" rotation. I had the same trepidation as you. In my experience, that issue took all of 15 seconds to get past. It truly is not a big deal. You'll have no problem should you decide to purchase a Flex product.

Welcome, and good luck to you!

[Mike Phillips]

Will I really see a difference?

Just depends on a lot of different factors as, thank God, we're all different.


1: If you only work on white and light colored cars - probably won't see a difference.

2: If you work on black and dark colored cars, (or any color of cars), but don't have great eye sight? you probably won't see a difference.

3: If you don't inspect in good light or strong light AFTER some time has passed and any polishing oils and/or wax or sealant has worn off so there's nothing filling in the holograms - then "no" you probably won't see a difference.



I'm 100% confident I have more articles and more in-depth replies, (which are like articles), on the topic of holograms than anyone else breathing. It's a COMMON topic that once in a while can lead to emotional differences of opinion. A quick search on Skynet using the below search terms,

Holograms rotary buffers swirls mike phillips autogeekonline.net


And here's what I found.




So I'm real comfortable talking about rotary buffers or as some call them rotary polishers and also the scratch pattern they impart specifically and technically referred to as holograms but also called buffer trails or buffer swirls.

Just joined the forum but have viewed a few times in the past. Hats off and thanks to Mike for all the valuable videos and info; I really enjoy them.

Thank you. Without trying I ended up teaching people the difference between a swirl and a squirrel.

Not a pro, just an enthusiast who owns a DeWalt 849X rotary. Owned the old Black and Decker Buffmaster before that. I have some experience with rotary, but not sure I qualify as "good" with it..

Have done some minor damage in a few small spots over the years, but I've always enjoyed using the polisher and felt it always improved the appearance of the paint.

Lately, I've used Lake Country pads and various Menzerna polishes/compounds.

My first polisher is the Makita 9207SPC - to my knowledge, this was the first variable speed rotary polisher. Before this they are either one speed, (fixed speed), or 2-speed, a low and a high setting.




I say this is my first polisher because I still own it. It's about 5 feet from my monitors here at my desk in my antique wax collection and collection of unique tools.

The DeWalt is powerful, but can get heavy on vertical panels after a while.

Agree. The DeWALT 849X is a great tool but it's also a full size rotary. Not a big deal size and weight-wise until you start buffing out a lot of vertical panels.


The difference between buffing out horizontal panels versus vertical panels


Horizontal Panel

You pretty much guide the polisher where you want it to go as the weight of the tool, 7+ pounds, is often all that is needed for light to medium correction work. Of course you can bear down on it when you need to do some heavy cutting or as I like to call it - chopping.

In this picture, for the most part I'm letting the weight of the DeWALT 849 do all the correction work, (together with a wool pad and a compound), and all I'm doing is guiding it around the Bat Antennae.

Kind of hard to see the actual antennae in this shot,




You can see it here though,



I was very careful as I didn't want the wool pad to grab the fragile Bat Antennae and yank it out of, and off of the Batmobile.



Vertical Panel

You have to both PUSH the tool against the panel AND HOLD THE TOOL UP. This isn't a big deal but it will tax different muscles and more muscles. Over time, for example if you're buffing out a neglected boat, you'll feel it the next day.

In this pictures, I LEANING into the DeWALT 849X to show a class how to remove deep oxidation.

Seriously considering the new Flex Supa Beast forced rotation orbital.

My question is this: Does the orbital really improve the final finish over the straight rotary?

An orbital polisher, be it a free spinning random orbital polisher or a gear-driven orbital polisher, guarantees zero holograms left in the surface. For most people, this would equate to really improving the finish, including me.

I keep reading about these holograms left by rotary polishing and I just don't see it after polishing my truck or wife's car.

I listed factors as to why you might not see holograms left in the paint after using only a rotary above in the first portion of my reply.

I'll share my opinion.

When a pad is ONLY spinning in a single direction on a painted surface, it will impart it's own unique scratch pattern - whether your eyes can detect it or not. It's there. If you don't see it, then there's no visual downside to finishing with a rotary only. I do make the case that even if you don't see hologram scratches - there is a downside in that the surface is left more open and this can lead to faster deterioration simply due to a great overall surface area being exposed to the elements.

I explain this in detail in this article, the only article I've ever seen like it. Point being, anyone can buff out a boat or a car, but to use a keyboard to dive deep down the rabbit hole takes time and wordsmith skills. For what it's worth.

Holograms in gel-coat boats by Mike Phillips

Love the concept of it being safer and more aggressive than the random orbital polishers. Not being a pro, I figure there must be something to this orbital as all the pros seem to use them along with or instead of rotary machines.

If you're just doing your own cars and you're happy with the results from the DeWALT rotary, there's nothing wrong with that. If you want the correction ability of a rotary buffer but without the downside of requiring more muscle to hold, press and control any brand of rotary buffer, then a gear-driven orbital is the next best thing.

As a professional plumber, I wouldn't hesitate to spend $435 on a tool I used every day. As a guy who just likes detailing and polishing, it's more than double what my DeWalt cost me, so it would be a big investment.

Agree. The FLEX tools are not the lowest cost options on the market. I would say this though, you RARELY ever see any of the BEASTS for sale used. AND when you do see one for sale, my personal experience knowing some of the people that have bought and then sold their FLEX BEAST tools is they ALWAYS regret it. And then buy another.

I've also read some don't like the fact that they rotate counter-clockwise. I am used to the clockwise rotation, but not sure that should be a deal breaker or matter at all.

To me, and again this is just my opinion and the opinion of a guy that teaches pretty much all the various tool options on the market, the direction any tool spins a pad is a non-issue. I'll just leave it at that.

Lighter? More comfortable to use? Most importantly, better results?

Welcome all input if you've used the new Beast, 3401, or even the Mille.

The PRIMARY benefit to any brand of gear-driven orbital is ZERO PAD STALLING. Or as the saying one of our forum members vobro coined, (and I agree and like the saying,


All BRAWL and ZERO STALL

He was referencing his FLEX 3401 but the zero stall feature applies to any gear-driven orbital.


As a person that has buffed out cars for decades using primarily a rotary buffer, (the Makita in the above picture), and this was because all the cool tools we have available to us today had not been invented yet, I love rotary buffers or to use the more accepted marketing term now days, I love rotary polishers - when they are the right tool for the job.

When I can get the job done without a rotary, then I grab the Supa BEAST.

And when I do use a rotary, the first rotary I grab is the cordless FLEX PE14. Unless I'm removing sanding marks out of a boat I've machine sanded, it will do everything else. And if I am removing sanding marks out of a boat hull - then I grab the corded FLEX PE14


And for everything I wrote above - standard disclaimer, these are my thoughts based upon my experience, your mileage may vary.

[spazzz]

Certain tools just fit my hands better the 3401 is one of them. I need it, like I need my Estwing hammer or 12 inch 440 Channellocks.
Sure you can get the job done with other less expensive tools but I am sure glad I made the investment every time I use it.

Buy it if you have the scratch.
I went from my first polisher the PC7424 straight to the Flex and had zero problems. It is pure bliss to use.

[2black1s]

... My question is this: Does the orbital really improve the final finish over the straight rotary?

I keep reading about these holograms left by rotary polishing and I just don't see it after polishing my truck or wife's car...

Personally, If you have been using a rotary with results that SATISFY YOU, and YOU do not see any holograms, or what I call "buffer trails", then why the need for a change? Keep doing what your doing.

That said, I'm an old rotary guy with experience back to the late 1960s and I currently use a "conventional" Random Orbital for most of my light polishing and finishing work. The rotary has been relegated to major corrections.

... I've also read some don't like the fact that they rotate counter-clockwise. I am used to the clockwise rotation, but not sure that should be a deal breaker or matter at all...

I'm one of those guys.

The counter-clockwise (and counter-intuitive in my view) rotation is probably the the number one reason I don't own a Flex, or other forced rotation tool.

When approaching an edge or sharp body line, the polisher, regardless of type, needs to be (or should be) canted a certain amount and in a certain direction to ensure the pad's rotation is away from, or "off" the edge. After all these years using a clockwise rotation polisher that action is instinctive to me without giving it much thought. A polisher with a counter-clockwise rotation throws a wrench into that.

Most say that the opposite rotation is no big deal and you get used to it pretty rapidly, but I just don't see it that way. It seems to me that I would have to "think" each time I approached an edge to keep my "instincts" in check. And an instinctive move during a momentary lapse in concentration could have some disastrous results. I'm just not willing to take that risk.

My thoughts may be an over-reaction and unwarranted in some's eyes, but they seem real as could be to me. I'd like to try a Flex sometime, but I'm not spending $400.00 or $500.00 bucks to do so and then find out that my "instincts" are too hard to overcome.

[Rsurfer]

I own a 3401 rotary and a griots orbital.

What brand of rotary is this?

[Mike Phillips]

One more comment...

There are times when I normally wouldn't use a rotary OR a gear-driven orbital polisher and that's for really soft paint.

They way I type out my thinking goes like this,


All other factors considered, a free spinning random orbital polisher will finish out nicer on the widest spectrum of paints versus a gear-driven orbital -Mike Phillips


I shared this observation back in 2012 here, see my reply to Crazy Amos in post #32

Christmas Detail - Ferrari P4 - Move over Rudolf






It's just something I've seen with soft paints. It's a FACT that a gear-driven orbital is more powerful. You could state the previous statement like this,

A gear-drive orbital is more aggressive

Power and Aggressive mean the same or equal thing in the context of buffing out soft paint. Here's an example of a car that had very soft paint that I would have preferred to have buffed out using any of the BEASTS - but because the paint marred so easily, the safest option was a free spinning, SHORT stroke random orbital polisher.

Original BASECOAT/CLEARCOAT paint - 1996 Porsche 993





And for the above car I used the 8mm Griot's Garage ROP as well as a few other tools.





If you look at the date stamp of when I posted the above write-up, it was before the Griot's G9 was invented.