Unable to find a combination that will remove swirls

[Mike Phillips]

I ended up trying an older bottle (3-4 years old) of Meguiar's Ultimate Compound I had left over with the Grey Lake Country pad on a Flex XC 3401 VRG and finally saw some improvement.

I needed 6 passes per section with the speed between 4 and 5 to remove most of the swirls in the test spot.

I did the hood and front fenders and got most of the swirls out but I did need to do several sections twice.

I started out today on another panel with the same technique but it now has almost no effect on the swirls. I have tried smaller sections, slower hand speeds, more pressure on the buffer, and higher buffer speed, but nothing seems to work. The weather is hot and humid (Central Florida), but it was the same yesterday when I did the hood and fenders.


I'm pretty much out of ideas as to how to proceed. Right now, I can think of 3 potential causes for my issues:

1) Expired product (my bottle of Ultimate Compound is at least 4 years old). I'm planning on buying a fresh bottle tomorrow and see if that helps.

Maybe the problem but I doubt it. When I worked for Meguiar's, one of the things the chemist stressed with their formulation was stability up to 5 years minimum.

2) The car has a paint sealant or coating that was not taken off by the iron remover. I have not applied anything previously, and to my knowledge the dealer did not either. The only possibility I can think of is a paint protectant from an automatic car wash that got applied without my knowledge.

This is a non-factor. Any compound, pad and tool combination abrasive enough to remove paint will obliterate anything ON the paint.

3) This car was built with the hardest paint on the planet.

Possible. Paint technology is always changing and you never know what you have until you do some testing.

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I really don't know what to try next.

Thanks in advance!

Todd

I RARELY use the grey Force Hybrid pads. The are so stiff they simply don't conform to a panel and thus they don't seem to work the abrasives against the paint as well as the normal orange Lake Country Force Hybrid pad which I use ALL the time.


1: I'd suggest trying an orange LC Force Hybrid pad with the new UC you get. UC or Ultimate Compound is good and should work on most defects on most paints.

2: I'd also suggest cranking your BEAST up to the 6 speed setting, pressing down, or pressing AGAINST a ventricle panel with about 10 pounds of pressure to the head of the polisher.

3: Move the polisher slowly and make AT LEAST 8 solid section passes - maybe 10 to 12.

Then inspect the results.


If this doesn't work then you're going to nee a more aggressive compound or more aggressive pad or both.

[Mike Phillips]

Are you sure you are not seeing Micro marring left behind from the compounds you used? Have you tried a finishing polish and softer pad?

I’m not one to usually say brand “x” has hard or soft paint but Mazda typically has medium to soft paint IME. Did you start your process by trying the least aggressive method first? The LC force Hybrid grey pads are very stiff and corse. Even if used on super hard paint they will need a follow up polish.

I believe what is happening is that you may be removing swirls while adding them right back giving the illusion that nothing is happening. Try over with a finishing polish and softer less aggressive pad. Then adjust from there.

I think Jim is likely correct in his diagnosis.

Also - when you do a TEST SPOT - you need to do it from start to finish to KNOW the final results.

My experience with Mazda paint is like everyone else that has commented. It's not super hard it's more in the medium range where is right where you want it.


And if this paint is SOFT then you're removing defects and then putting them back in.


I've shared this numerous times in the past, here it is again, when it comes to really soft paints - a FREE SPINNING polisher will finish out nicer more consistently than a gear-driven polisher. It's just the nature of the beast. No pun intended.

FLEX 3401 = BEAST


Also - soft and medium paints will be a lot more prone to micro-marring than harder paints be the micro-marring caused by the product or the pad or the tool.


I'd suggest, like others, do some testing with the new UC and either the orange LC foam cutting pad OR a polishing pad and THEN follow that with a soft finishing pad and a fine cut polish. If you use any Adams products AFTER the Meguiar's Ultimate Compound, make sure they are not re-introduction micro-marring. In fact, if you really want to do some troubleshooting, when you pick up a fresh bottle of UC pick up a bottle of UP or Ultimate Polish and be sure to use this with a soft foam finishing pad on the FLEX on the 4-5 speed setting.

If you have a free spinning tool, use this for the polishing step.

Also - it's vitally important moving forward than any future testing is done with clean, un-contaminated pads, just in-case it's an abrasive issue.



Keep us updated and sorry for not replying sooner - you posted this on Sunday and I try to push away from the keyboard at least one day a week or I'll end up divorced.

[Mike Phillips]

Consider purchasing a rotary.

A rotary is a very useful tool and I have my original Makita I bought in 1987 here in my office. The SAND CAST textured aluminum head is worn smooth like chrome form decades of use, so I'm not stranger to the rotary.








That said, while it's a great tool for the right job, it's not the right tool for any "finishing" step when any brand of free spinning random orbital polisher or in most cases, any brand of gear-driven orbital polisher will finish out hologram-free 100% of the time on ALL paint systems.

This cannot be said about a rotary.


It's all about using the right tool for the job and where the rotary buffer excels is REMOVING a lot of paint, or gel-coat FAST.

[z51l9889]

Mike -- thank you for all the information! This is very helpful.

As you and others suggested, I'll do some additional testing with softer pads and a less aggressive polish, along with trying fresh bottles of UC and UP if needed. The whole time I was working with the Grey LC pad, I was thinking that I shouldn't need something that aggressive based on my past experience with Mazda paint (this Mazda 3 replaced an older 3), but my test spots with softer pads and less aggressive liquids did not give good results. Per your suggestions, I'll do the new test spots with more section passes and I'll slow down a little. I was previously doing 4 section passes for my test spots with a clean, primed pad and moving the Flex at about 2-3 inches/second.

I did expect micro-marring with the Grey pads and was planning on a final polish step all along. I do have a PC and a long throw mini polisher, so I will use those for the final polish.

I'll keep you all posted on what I find out, but it may be a couple of days before I get a chance to work on it again.

Thank you to all for your comments and suggestions!

[Mike Phillips]

Per your suggestions, I'll do the new test spots with more section passes and I'll slow down a little. I was previously doing 4 section passes for my test spots with a clean, primed pad and moving the Flex at about 2-3 inches/second.

I did expect micro-marring with the Grey pads and was planning on a final polish step all along. I do have a PC and a long throw mini polisher, so I will use those for the final polish.

I'll keep you all posted on what I find out, but it may be a couple of days before I get a chance to work on it again.

Thank you to all for your comments and suggestions!

Looking forward to the update.

[z51l9889]

I have done quite a bit of testing based on the comments. I did several test spots using the Adam's products and Meg's UC and UP on various pads. All testing was done with the Flex on speed 5 using 10 section passes and a hand speed of 1-2 inches/second per Mike's recommendations. I found that UC on a white pad followed by UP on a white pad gave the best results, with UP on an orange pad followed by UP on a white pad being a close second. I also tried both of these combos with 8 section passes but that didn't clean up the fine spider web scratches. I definitely need the 10 passes to get good results.

Please note that I didn't use a finishing pad for any of the testing because I wanted to first make sure I could get rid of the damage. While the test spots showed I could get rid of the damage, I still had a little bit of hazing. Based on the comments, I did a section of the trunk lid (which was giving me all the trouble initially) with the new process but substituted a red finishing pad on the PC instead of the white pad on the Flex. This eliminated the hazing and really brought up the shine and depth. I've now gone back and re-done the hood and trunk lid and they look absolutely amazing. For this finish, really soft pads and lots of passes are the hot setup. This is going to be really time consuming, but the results are totally worth it.

Thank you once again for all the suggestions. They were extremely helpful and I greatly appreciate everyone taking the time to answer my questions and help me figure this out.

[Mike Phillips]

I have done quite a bit of testing based on the comments.

I did several test spots using the Adam's products and Meg's UC and UP on various pads. All testing was done with the Flex on speed 5 using 10 section passes and a hand speed of 1-2 inches/second per Mike's recommendations.

I found that UC on a white pad followed by UP on a white pad gave the best results, with UP on an orange pad followed by UP on a white pad being a close second.

I also tried both of these combos with 8 section passes but that didn't clean up the fine spider web scratches. I definitely need the 10 passes to get good results.


Please note that I didn't use a finishing pad for any of the testing because I wanted to first make sure I could get rid of the damage.


While the test spots showed I could get rid of the damage, I still had a little bit of hazing. Based on the comments, I did a section of the trunk lid (which was giving me all the trouble initially) with the new process but substituted a red finishing pad on the PC instead of the white pad on the Flex.

This eliminated the hazing and really brought up the shine and depth.

BOOM!

This is why we test.

I've now gone back and re-done the hood and trunk lid and they look absolutely amazing. For this finish, really soft pads and lots of passes are the hot setup. This is going to be really time consuming, but the results are totally worth it.

At least you found a combo that will work for you. Here's my guess though, for what it's worth.

Once you proved a free spinning tool with a softer pad worked to maximize gloss and clarity after the heavy correction step, my guess is - if you were to use a LONG STROKE free spinning random orbital polisher like either the RUPES BigFoot 21 or the Griot's BOSS 21 - it would do what the 8mm free spinning random orbital Porter Cable polisher will do and do it better and faster. Just guess based off of experience.

While I do most all my work with one of the BEASTS - I do know that when it comes to maximizing the results, it's pretty hard to beat a 21mm long stroke polisher with the right pad and product combo. At least on most paint system.

Thank you once again for all the suggestions. They were extremely helpful and I greatly appreciate everyone taking the time to answer my questions and help me figure this out.

Wow! Now that is how you type up an in-depth summary of the changes you implemented and the results achieved.


Nice work and thank you!

I don't use this emoticon very often but it's deserved here.

[Belo]

interesting thread. I wonder how a product like hd-one would do with the right pad combo for issues like this.

[z51l9889]

Wow! Now that is how you type up an in-depth summary of the changes you implemented and the results achieved.


Nice work and thank you!

I don't use this emoticon very often but it's deserved here.

Thank you very much! Coming from you, that is high praise indeed. I'm an Engineer by trade, so detailed experiments is what I do. I actually laid out a test matrix and took notes. This is a very high level summary of what I did -- my wife is always telling me I give too many details, LOL.

I'm very grateful to you for opening my eyes to something here. I've always used a maximum of about 6 section passes. I was told many years ago that more passes than that might cause issues with over-working the product and possibly introduce damage. I know the products have improved greatly over the last several years, but I had no idea you could go, or would need to go, 10-12 passes with a product. Looking back, this has worked against me at times, including this project.

You're never too old, or too experienced, to learn something new...

[Billy Baldone]

What I find great about this particular thread, is that it sure does emphasize a test spot. Yes we all know for example that most GM clear coat is hard, Asian paint is softer.... etc. So, for the most part, we know what process works most of the time.... But every now and then, we come across a finish that defies our normal logic. I remember a few years ago Richy posted about really really hard Porsche paint, no repaint, just really super hard, when it is conventionally softer. So if you are doing this for customers, you need to keep a bit of a variety of polishes/pads, and even machines to tackle what comes before you. And by having a few options for your test spots, you have a better chance of actually getting the result you are seeking. Great thread, and feedback from everyone here