Question regarding Ceramic Pro Coating and other important information

[awancorp]

Good Afternoon Mike,

I recently have ordered the BlackFire Pro Ceramic Coating, HydroSeal and BF SiO2 spray sealent.



My question is simply for each of these three products, how long do they or are they supposed to last? I know the prep work required for each, but what I am getting from your reviews is that for the hydro seal you do not even have to clay bar, and can just wash and apply, correct? But with the others you do of course, right?



And finally,

With one of my cars, I am getting a professional to put on the Ceramic Pro 9H coating (either 1 or 4 coatings) which is a permanent coating and will protect against bird droppings even if theoretically left on forever.



How would the above three products compare to this in terms of longevity and protection?

Any help would be appreciated before so I know which one to apply. And, naturally, applying your favorite wax on top of any of these whether be it P21s or Pinnacle Sovereign, would that add any value or increase in shine/gloss?

Thanks in advance,

Haroon

[Mike Phillips]

Good Afternoon Mike,

I recently have ordered the BlackFire Pro Ceramic Coating, HydroSeal and BF SiO2 spray sealent.


My question is simply for each of these three products, how long do they or are they supposed to last?

And I don't know how long they last. Just being honest. At least not based upon real-world experience. Most of the time I review any product or tool, it's in that moment I'm using it. If I own the car or it's a co-worker's car, then I'll continue to see the car and this can help to monitor longevity. But if the car is a "cool" car that I detail for a friend or customer, I might not see the car or the customer again for some time.

The BIG PICTURE answer for how long anything lasts starts as you mentioned, the prep work performed to enable the product to work or bond or whatever magic is taking place and then next answer or FACTOR to how long anything lasts comes down to how the car is used and how it's washed or touched.

I know the prep work required for each, but what I am getting from your reviews is that for the hydro seal you do not even have to clay bar, and can just wash and apply, correct? But with the others you do of course, right?

Good question. First - I'm not a fan of sealing dirty, contaminated or swirled out paint. There is a market for people NOT like me that just want protection and water beading and I guess these types of products will suit their needs.

Me?

If it's my own car, a car for one of my detailing classes or a customer's car, then I do what it takes to do the job right. For neglected paint this usually involves,

1. Washing
2. Chemical decontamination
3. Mechanical decontamination
4. Paint correction work - be it polishing, or compounding followed by polishing.
5. Sealing the surface - this could be a wax, a synthetic sealant, or a coating.
6. Or skipping the paint correction and sealing steps and simply using an AIO

So that's how I roll. I'm not actually of spray-on, rinse-off, water beading projects. I kind of like the Si02 washers, where the magic potion IS the car wash, but the spray-on products that you rinse off, be they from ANY company or brand, they're really not my style when it comes to car detailing. I get it that there's a lot of people that do like these types of products and I believe it was CarPro that gets credit for starting this category of product and the trend that made them popular.

I write reviews to explain what a product is, when to use it, why to use and how to use it but that doesn't also mean I use or prefer the products for my own detailing style. Kind of like when I wrote a review for the Makita PO5000C. I found the too well-built but I don't use it and if a FLEX 3401 was in the same garage then I wouldn't use the Makita. I'm not a fan of 5mm gear-driven orbital tools. Had Makita introduced an 8mm gear-driven orbital tool then there might have been a different outcome in my preference.

And finally,

With one of my cars, I am getting a professional to put on the Ceramic Pro 9H coating (either 1 or 4 coatings) which is a permanent coating and will protect against bird droppings even if theoretically left on forever.

Here's what I've experienced and shared in the blogosphere over the last 17+ years.

Modern paints, that is clearcoats, which are in the Urethane family of paints - these paints are pretty tough in and of themselves. If a bird dropping is corrosive enough and left on the paint long enough that it will etch the urethane paint, what I've seen is it will etch anything put on the urethane paint.

So I don't know that any brand of coating is going to stop the corrosive action of the acid in bird poop, or at least in some bird's poop and under the worst conditions. We can all hope. We can even pray to the Gods of Coatings, but I'm not sure there's a 100% bullet-proof "anything" when it comes to the birds.

To make this point - here's a real-world experience that I wrote about in 2008. The incident tool place in 2002. What I describe HAPPENED to a car I detailed and was standing by when the bird dropping landed on the paint.


How long does it take for a bird dropping to etch paint?


From AskTheExterminator.com

Unlike mammals, birds have no bladder because they do not store liquid wastes. Birds pass their urine into a common chamber used for digestive and urinary wastes. This chamber, called the cloaca, also contains reproductive by-products. So, when a bird lets go with a "bomb" it contains white uric acid crystals and a bunch of digestive wastes like insect parts and seeds.



The above is just a portion of the article. Click the link to read the entire experience I shared.

How long does it take for a bird dropping to etch paint?

How would the above three products compare to this in terms of longevity and protection?

Not as long. What you're talking about with the Ceramic Pro 9H product is a normal application of a dedicated coating AFTER any paint correction has been performed and then after the paint has been chemically stripped to accept the coating. These other products are instead products of or addition-to products for the normal application of a dedicated coating.

Any help would be appreciated before so I know which one to apply.

Normally after you pay big bucks to have a certified detailer install the Ceramic Pro 9h coating to your car's paint you would ask them what they recommend to use for regular maintanece of this coating. My guess is they will recommend a Ceramic Pro product and keep you in the family. I normally tell others to follow this plan of action. Years ago I coined the term,

Synergist Chemical Compatibility


As it applies to "our" detailing world. I'm happy to see other people use the term.

And, naturally, applying your favorite wax on top of any of these whether be it P21s or Pinnacle Sovereign, would that add any value or increase in shine/gloss?

I would say "no".

I would suggest reading more of my articles on this forum about coatings because I have covered this topic a LOT. Now follow me,

IF - IF you're going to pay to have a coating installed or spend that investment doing it yourself, then what you want on the car is the COATING an the characteristics and benefits IT provides. If you put a car wax on a coating you loose the benefits and characteristics of the coating and gain the benefits and characteristics of the wax.

A quality coating, properly installed also creates what I call,

The glassy look.

Waxes and sealants create a lot of GLOSS but in my opinion, a ceramic coating takes the appearance results to a tick higher level and that's the glassy look.


So ask your coating installer what they recommend for products and recommended maintenance.

Thanks in advance,

Haroon

Well I don't know if I helped you but I tried.

I would say thank you for bringing this question to the forum. Know that I ask everyone that sends me questions via e-mail to post them to the forum. The forum is just so much better at sharing

Info - using formatted text
Pictures
Videos
Links

Than e-mail and also Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and Instagram.


I see you posted this today at 06-24-2019, 01:35 PM

I've been in the garage the last few hours packing for my upcoming Roadshow Class in Auburn, Indiana.



Saturday, July 20th and Sunday, July 21st <-- Info and link to sign-up
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5634 Co Rd 11A
Auburn, IN 46706
Host Website - krusemuseums.org

[awancorp]

Mike
Thank you so much for such a detailed and thought out response! I had a professional install Ceramic Pro 9H on my toy. I also purchased from Autogeek the BF SiO2 spray sealant which I used on my other car with excellent results.

I also purchased the Blackfire Pro Ceramic Coating and read your article on how to prep and prepare the paint to apply this product. My question is, on my other car, I purchased the predecessor to the Blackfire Pro Ceramic Coating from Autogeek in 2014 and prepped and applied that product. It has been 5 years, and since the car is garage kept, and barely driven, it still beads water! My question is, is the article you wrote that explains how to prep and apply the BF Pro Ceramic Coating enough in this case, or since a previous (the older BF Ceramic product from 2014) ceramic product was applied, should that be removed first even though its been 5 years, and how would I do that before then following your prep and application article? If you already have such an article published, or answered this question previously, if you could point me to it.

Again, thanking you in advance!!

Very Respectfully,
Awancorp

[The Guz]

Mike
Thank you so much for such a detailed and thought out response! I had a professional install Ceramic Pro 9H on my toy. I also purchased from Autogeek the BF SiO2 spray sealant which I used on my other car with excellent results.

I also purchased the Blackfire Pro Ceramic Coating and read your article on how to prep and prepare the paint to apply this product. My question is, on my other car, I purchased the predecessor to the Blackfire Pro Ceramic Coating from Autogeek in 2014 and prepped and applied that product. It has been 5 years, and since the car is garage kept, and barely driven, it still beads water! My question is, is the article you wrote that explains how to prep and apply the BF Pro Ceramic Coating enough in this case, or since a previous (the older BF Ceramic product from 2014) ceramic product was applied, should that be removed first even though its been 5 years, and how would I do that before then following your prep and application article? If you already have such an article published, or answered this question previously, if you could point me to it.

Again, thanking you in advance!!

Very Respectfully,
Awancorp

Polishing will remove the previous coating in preparation for the new coating.

[awancorp]

Polishing will remove the previous coating in preparation for the new coating.

Thank you!!!

[awancorp]

Ok, so now I am confused. I went through my order history back in 2014, and that predecessor which is still available, is the Pinnacle Black Label Diamond Surface coating which states it can last up to 3 years. This newer product, which I purchased, the Blackfire Pro Ceramic Coating has 9H hardness and can last up to 2 years. Which product is better then? They both are ceramic coatings, but it seems the Blackfire has 9H so is harder but doesnt last as long?

Any insight or help would be welcomed.

Thanks!

[BudgetPlan1]

Ok, so now I am confused. I went through my order history back in 2014, and that predecessor which is still available, is the Pinnacle Black Label Diamond Surface coating which states it can last up to 3 years. This newer product, which I purchased, the Blackfire Pro Ceramic Coating has 9H hardness and can last up to 2 years. Which product is better then? They both are ceramic coatings, but it seems the Blackfire has 9H so is harder but doesnt last as long?

Any insight or help would be welcomed.

Thanks!

Ignore any mentions of 'eleventy-billion H hardness' as theyre mostly a pointless measurement. While in theory, it may be very, very slightly 'harder' than you paint, the real difference is so small it's really not worthy of consideration...marketing gibberish.

As for true longevity vs claimed longevity, you'll never know for sure how durability will really turn out until you actually try it in your climate and your situation. Some things can be estimated by finding others experiences in similar conditions and usage but that's still just an educated guess.

We have/had 2 cars with considerably different usage patterns; both protected with same set of products/coatings:

1. At 3 years, 17k miles, Car 1 was still performing (w/ regards to coating) at about 85% 'as applied'
2. At 2 years, 42k miles, Car 2 was in need of re-polishing and re-coating.

1. Car 1 is about 5500 miles a year, no freeway, sits outside from April thru November but only really driven daily November thru April, short trips, no freeway.
2. Car 2 is year round daily driver, generally always garaged, 25k miles a year, 95% freeway.

Both are in NE Ohio.

Same protection, varying usage far different likely outcomes. Freeway use, especially during winter, is very, very hard on a vehicles finish. Road salt, brine, chemical de-icers, road grime ain't good for anything regarding a cars finish. Merely sitting outside in the elements has little effect on (this particular coating) coating degradation.

Point being, no claims listed on a box can even begin to adequately predict longevity. It's the ultimate YMMV scenario. And in NE Ohio, longevity based merely on the passage of time is a poor barometer of coating performance. Heck, I can take a 6-month 'coating-lite' product like Gyeon CanCoat, plop it on a car that only goes out once a week in nice weather 3 months of the year and it'll last for years.

[acuRAS82]

Well explained, Budget! <slow-clapping>.

To Budget’s point about learning from others experiences to get a guesstimate for how long something may last in your environment, here’s an example of how I’m using that to guess what to do with one of my cars this winter:

A forum member who lives in PA told me his winter experiences with PBL coating. He has a daily driver and like I do and the coating failed during the winter down on the lower panels due to the salt/brine mix.

I live in PA too and will see plenty of this mix including highway miles, so I will use the PBL Coating + PBL Synergy Ceramic Wax to add additional protection. In addition, I will plan to re-apply Synergy Wax and/or add PBL Surface Coating to the lower panels at minimum since I think it’s likely I will have similar failures where the other member did.

Once the winter is over I can add my own experiences to my knowledge bin and hopefully make even more informed decisions for these LSPs, in my environment, going forward.

[awancorp]

Thank you everyone!

[Markymapo]

As mentioned above it all depends on driving conditions (Eastern PA). If it’s a bad winter and I see an acceptable window of opportunity in Feb I will put another coat of Collinite 476 or 845 on my daily drive (f150) as constant salt and grime can really wear away at your coating (I will top with 915 ifI can)