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  1. #21
    Super Member Eldorado2k's Avatar
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    Re: advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting

    Quote Originally Posted by DetailZeus View Post
    I guess you could suggest the car was becoming harder to clean but think about how subjective that is.
    That’s correct. You know when your protection has took a dump when your quik detailer wipedown is no longer as smooth as it should be and/or you begin micro marring during your wipedowns. Hopefully you don’t experience the latter.

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  3. #22
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    Re: advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips View Post
    While your sentiment is noble and I completely understand what you're saying you're also on the losing side of the argument. Here's why,


    Perception is reality


    Remember the above. Memorize the above. Never forget the above. Perception is reality whether it is or not. That's how our world works.

    The unwashed masses BELIEIVE water beading is a sign of 2 things,

    1. Protection
    2. Durability



    Any product that does NOT bead water well and for a long time will be labeled by the unwashed masses as an inferior product. Once the consensus is formed, (and it will form), it's game over for SALES of that product.


    Educate the unwashed masses? -->


    Won't happen. Never going to happen. Losing business model. The winning model as proven by all the experts in the car detailing world is to make your product bead water as good or better than Zaino.








    Good point but your point doesn't matter. Perception is reality and once you have a person designated an "Influencer" their word become the word of god and all masses will march off the cliff with them.




    You're wrong. Meguiar's tried and tried and tried to educate the masses but it was a waste of time, money and resources. Perception is reality and if your product doesn't bead water really well and for a long time then the masses will say it sucks.


    I do believe it's possible a company could bring out a new "wax" or "synthetic sealant" or "ceramic paint coating" you know, the current three categories of product we use to protect our car paint and take on the difficult task of educating the masses on all the benefits of why a protection product that makes water lay flat is better than a product that makes water bead-up but it will be a monumental undertaking and every time they post a picture of their product on the horizontal surface of a car making water lay flat 1 MILLION Facebook detailers will post a picture of water beading up on their latest detail. And then they'll do it again.

    Heck someone, somewhere is right now posting an AMAZING picture of water beading! And now someone just did it again... and again... and again... and so on and so on....

    WE LOVE HOW WATER LOOKS WHEN IT BEADS UP ON OUR FRESHY DETAILED CAR

    No body loves or even cars how water looks when it lays flat.




    Meguiar's is a leader in integrity in this industry but they took their lumps and moved on. They tried and tried and tried and "we" the unwashed masses would not have anything to do with it.


    Go up to any Facebook Group and start collecting all the pictures people post of water beading and then repeat these words to yourself.

    Perception is reality


    Sorry if you don't like what I wrote above but I've been there and done that and like mentioned before, lived it as a Veteran of the Zaino vs NXT Wax Wars.


    Good morning Mike, thank you for taking the time to write your in-depth and detailed response.

    I agree with you 100% in that perception is reality, weather its right or wrong. It is what it is!

    On the matter of Meguiars attempt to educate the market place, I was unaware that Megs did in fact make a sizable investment and effort in educating the masses on the superiority of sheeting over beading. The "take-away" I got from your most recent post on this was that Meguiars had a sheeting product but failed to commit the necessary marketing effort to make it a success. That was MY perception! And it was apparently wrong! I stand corrected now, Thank you!

    The great thing about perceptions is that they can be changed! After reading your more detailed response this morning, mine has!

    I stand behind my assertion that a savvy company (perhaps Meguiars) should revisit this interesting concept. Times change and if the right marketing campaign and supporting technical data can be brought to the market place, it would pave the way for a truly unique product success story.

    Thanks again for your informative and authoritative response on the matter. You changed my "perception!"

    Kindest regards...

  4. #23
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    Re: advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting

    But think what a cool, novel, contrary idea this would be for a boutique brand to take on. Start with a water-sheeting, oil-repelling, sealant that is still incredibly slick and shiny. Pair it with a branded snowfoam and demonstrate how the solution is able to stick to the paint, dwell, and encapsulate the grime because of the wetting abilities of the surface. Next your shampoo can be chock full of all those water conditioners and wetting agents that are great for cleaning but bad for visual performance because they make water stick...wouldn't matter. Top it off with a DI system and you let your car drip dry because the water evaporates evenly.

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  6. #24
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    Re: advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorado2k View Post
    1st of all, I agree with what Mike just posted...



    As far as these specific comments^
    With all due respect, I couldn’t disagree more..

    There’s so much that could be said that I almost don’t know where to start...

    It’s a shame to hear someone try to say Meguiars “took the low road” when in fact they’ve stuck their neck out for the sake of the detailing world and have always been known for providing quality products at a fair price.

    Stuck their neck out countless times and sometimes don’t get the respect that’s deserved.. What do I mean by that? Well you talk about developing new and innovative products for the betterment of the car detailing world? To say Meguiars hasn’t played a large part in leading the way in regards to innovation of products would be flat out wrong.

    Who was the 1st to introduce microfiber pads for DA polishers?

    Who sold gallon concentrate of Rinseless Wash at probably the fairest price you’ll ever see before long before it became as popular as it is today?

    Who’s the originator of certain products like Last Touch Quik Detailer, and then we see another brand come out of the woodworks with “Final Touch” quik detailer and even make it pink just to top it off? Who’s integrity is in question? Lol.

    Speaking of original products, Meguiars products are produced by them and solely for their line of products. No relabeled stuff inside of the bottles, and not every brand can say that. They even make their own pads. Hows that for originality.

    You’re thirsty for new and innovative products? Well how many detailing brands have you seen consistently try something that’s never been seen before? Stand out from the crowd? Product superiority? Who else has the guts to introduce products such as:

    Meguiars Wash Plus- Talk about taking a chance and sticking your neck out.. How can you accuse them of taking “short cuts” when they put their neck on the line with products like this? Who else would have the guts or imagination to produce a new product like this?



    I don’t think it changed the minds of the masses... But 1 thing it sure wasn’t was a “short cut”

    How about Meguiars Paint Protect-



    This could also be remembered as an innovative attempt. Fairly priced and long lasting which in turn provides good value. Too bad it didn’t meet sales expectations and it’s now discontinued.. A for effort, certainly wouldn’t call it a “short cut” attempt.

    More innovative products? How about Meguiars Ultimate Fast Finish-



    How many top quality detailing brands sell you a gallon of glass cleaner concentrate, that yields 11 gallons of high quality glass cleaner for less than $20 dollars? You can’t even get 24oz. of RTU glass cleaner for under $20 bucks from some other brands... Who’s taking short cuts for fast bucks again?

    Cmon man, too many good people at Meguiars, I’ve been fortunate enough to have met many of them in person and I’m here to say they’re among the nicest most genuine group of people you’ll ever meet. It starts from the top down.

    Sorry for the long post, I just felt the need to set the record straight.advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting
    Good morning Eldorado2k, and thank you for your detailed response as well!

    With regard to my comments on Meguiars "taking the low-road", I got that "perception" after reading Mike's recent post on the matter. I came away with the impression that Meguiars didn't provide enough marketing support. After reading Mike's more in-depth and informative response this morning, my perception on that has been corrected.

    I have absolutely no ax to grind with Meguiars whatsoever. They are indeed a legendary ICON within the industry, and have been for many, many, decades. Furthermore, one is hard pressed to name a product manufacturer that has brought a wider (sometimes dizzying) selection of product offerings to the market place!

    Again, my comments with regard to Meguiars were isolated to that particular perception on that particular matter and not intended to be "perceived" as a general opinion of the brand. I, like so many others LOVE Meguiars and anticipate being a satisfied consumer of their product offerings for decades to come!

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  8. #25
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    Re: advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting

    Quote Originally Posted by midwestray View Post
    With all the advancements in Paint sealants and wax's, it seem someone would come up with some kind of barrier to stop water spots from adhering and causing damage to paint. example: Some people may have to leave their vehicle at the airport for days in the heat of summer etc. Also does the chances of water spotting decrease in winter when the sun can't bake it into the paint? Again an example: Taking car to a touch less car wash to remove salt spray when the temp is freezing?
    Thanks!
    Ray
    Best option is a rubber Membrane based coating

  9. #26
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Pilot View Post

    Good morning Mike, thank you for taking the time to write your in-depth and detailed response.

    I agree with you 100% in that perception is reality, weather its right or wrong. It is what it is!


    Thanks again for your informative and authoritative response on the matter. You changed my "perception!"

    Kindest regards...

    Good discussion...

    And just to note, yesterday on the Autogeek D101 FB Group, I saw a post requesting pictures of, drum roll please......

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .


    WATER BEADING


    Mike Phillips
    Director of Training Autogeek & Marine 31
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  10. #27
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    Re: advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips View Post
    I guess the root cause of the change in chemistry can be traced back to Guru Reports and "The Wax Test" those are the experts that caused Meguiar's to stop making waxes that sheet water.

    Car Wax History
    Ha ha, I forgot all about Guru Reports...I wonder what I did with my copy of that wax test...

  11. #28
    Super Member dlc95's Avatar
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    Re: advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting

    Quote Originally Posted by DetailZeus View Post
    But think what a cool, novel, contrary idea this would be for a boutique brand to take on. Start with a water-sheeting, oil-repelling, sealant that is still incredibly slick and shiny. Pair it with a branded snowfoam and demonstrate how the solution is able to stick to the paint, dwell, and encapsulate the grime because of the wetting abilities of the surface. Next your shampoo can be chock full of all those water conditioners and wetting agents that are great for cleaning but bad for visual performance because they make water stick...wouldn't matter. Top it off with a DI system and you let your car drip dry because the water evaporates evenly.
    Sorry about the "dislike"! That was inadvertent.

    Another thing you brought to my attention was offering - as a manufacturer/re-labeler is to offer both a dedicated beading product, and a sheeting product for those interested.

  12. #29
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting

    Quote Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy View Post

    Ha ha, I forgot all about Guru Reports...I wonder what I did with my copy of that wax test...

    I am so sad to say I cannot find my original copy. This would be the copy I marked up via a yellow highlighter for my own reference and for reference when I wrote the Zaino Case Study. The Zaino Case Study was a report I wrote to explain how marketing via word-of-mouth on the Internet, primarily through discussion forums, (Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and Instagram had not been invented for years down the road), was replacing word-of-mouth in the physical world.

    I gave the original copy of this report to Barry Meguiar and my guess is it's long gone. I do have the electronic version. It was page 31 of this report where I put into practice what I learned at Hewlett-Packard, that is their rule for meetings. At meetings at Hewlett-Packard, you could NOT come to a meeting with ONLY a problem or a complaint. If you wanted to point out something negative, like a problem, you also had to offer up your suggestion for the solution. Otherwise keep your mouth shut. Love that rule.

    Here's how I applied it in the Zaino Case Study. The Zaino Case Study highlighted multiple problems but the primary problem was that at that time, Meguiar's had a hole in their line. (some of you may recognize that phrase). The hole in the line was they did not have a single product that was a pure synthetic. That is a synthetic paint protecting product that also did not include either chemical cleaners or some form of abrasives. Every product at that time either had chemical cleaners, abrasives or Carnauba.

    Zaino was a pure synthetic and it was kicking everyone's company's ass on the Internet, which of course means it was kicking every wax company's ass in the real world, i.e. across all the garages across America (and the world). So in keeping with what I learned at Hewlett-Packard, (in Corvallis, Oregon), on page 31 I included my suggestions for the solution to the product. My suggestion was a pure synthetic. A product that had zero cleaners. Zero abrasives. and Zero Carnauba. Just pure synthetic paint protection. This is where NXT Tech Wax came from and then later M21.

    Most my colleagues at Meguiar's never gave or give me credit for this but the Vice President at that time, Atticus Firey, the Strategic Planner, Dick Koth and the head chemist, Gary Silvers, they all knew where NXT came from and they gave me credit for the creation for this product.


    Just a little Car Wax History.


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  14. #30
    Super Member dlc95's Avatar
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    Re: advancement in sealants and wax's for water spotting

    I used to have a ton of Turtle Wax Vision.

    It's claim to fame was that contained ASF / 3M flouropolymers, etc. The promoted characteristic was water sheeting. I always thought that that was a cool idea... Exactly 21 years ago (Oct 97), Wal Mart was blowing them out at $1.00/bottle. I bought 20 of them. Still have one too!

    I also have a plastic tub of Megs M26 that probably predates the wax wars era.

    I was out of the craft when the whole wax wars happened with Zaino and NXT.

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