large throw DA: microfiber vs wool

[sansa]

Hello everyone. I would treat a really old argument today. I know there are many threads about this but I barely can see a comparison when it's used a large trow da polisher, that is the kind of polisher we should consider if we want to compound...

For example a great thread by Todd from rupes was made using a porter cable with a little throw that we know it's good for finishing but not for cutting. Also he basically used almost only thick microfiber pads and we know that a big cushion doesn't help if we have to cut (citing Larry Kosilla we'd have a weaker "punch" using a thick pad).


So can you tell me your experience with "thin" microfiber and "thin" wool pads on a large throw DA (like the rupes 21)?


Please answer only if you tried these two pads with a large throw da

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks for the PM to let me know no one answered this thread and your questions.


Here's the deal...


Thin pads work best on free spinning tools like the Porter Cable. So YES a THIN PURPLE FOAMED WOOL PAD will out cut a foam cutting pad BECAUSE

FIBERS ARE AN ABRASIVE

That's why fiber pads tend to leave micro-marring in the paint more than foam pads because FIBERS ARE AN ABRASIVE. They CUT the paint.

When we doing our Test Spot on the Ferdinand Magellan Rail Car we started out testing a Meguiar's microfiber pad. Sure it removed the swirls, scratches and oxidation but it left micro-marring in the paint. It was the FIBERS that were cutting the paint.


Thick versus Thin

And of course thick pads don't rotate as well as thin pads on free spinning orbital polishers. At least 6 years ago, if not before, I coined the term thin is in, check out the time stamp of this thread by the same name.

Thin is in... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/28825-thin-new-lake-country-hydro-tech-low-profile-5-1-2-x-7-8-inch-foam-pads.html)

So pretty much anyone that's been reading free how-to articles on this forum knows that thin pads rotate better than thick pads. I also addressed this in my first and second how too books.


http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/587/300_1_book.jpg http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/587/300_2_book.jpg




I also cover how thin PURPLE FOAMED WOOL PADS rotate better on free spinning orbital polisher like the Porter Cable and Griot's Garage polishers in my boat detailing book.


http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/587/300_5_book.jpg






As for using NON RUPES pads and chemicals with a RUPES tool that's up to you.

What I wrote in my book is RUPES is a paint polishing SYSTEM not a tool.


http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/587/300_4_book.jpg




In my book, in my classes and when I detail cars I will normally use RUPES as a system not try to use NON RUPES pads and products with their tools.

I have not written the article,

The Air Test

But I will. I do cover this way of testing non-RUPES pads in my RUPES book on page 7


And for your question about using thin microfiber pads on large orbit stroke tools the answer is I have found the RUPES microfiber pads work exceedingly well for cutting and polishing and I cover this topic in FULL in-depth detail on pages 74 and 75.


I know others have used non-RUPES microfiber pads with success on RUPES orbital polishers and I'll let them chime in with their experience.

Most important thing to do whenever buffing out a car that you have NEVER buffed out before is to START by doing a TEST SPOT. Another term I coined in this industry that I'm happy to say is now an industry standard term used by so many....


And "yes" I have an article on the history behind the term Test Spot

Test Spot - The story behind the story... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/24043-test-spot-story-behind-term.html)


Here's the first use I can document in the forum world, probably exist father back in the Usenet Newsgroup world.

Test Spot (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/How to do a Test Spot when detailing cars by Mike Phillips)


http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/588/Test_Spot_History.jpg



Hope some of the above helps...

Thanks for alerting me via PM no one had replied to your thread. That said, in most cases questions from anyone should be posted to the forum, not sent via a PM.


:)

[sansa]

As for using NON RUPES pads and chemicals with a RUPES tool that's up to you.

What I wrote in my book is RUPES is a paint polishing SYSTEM not a tool.

I do cover this way of testing non-RUPES pads in my RUPES book on page 7


And for your question about using thin microfiber pads on large orbit stroke tools the answer is I have found the RUPES microfiber pads work exceedingly well for cutting and polishing and I cover this topic in FULL in-depth detail on pages 74 and 75.


I know others have used non-RUPES microfiber pads with success on RUPES orbital polishers and I'll let them chime in with their experience.



Thanks for the detailed answer. The reason why I made a question about Rupes or EVO21 (or other large throw polishers) + thin wool is because I can't use microfiber. I know the microfiber system + rupes would work great but they need SMAT products like Meguiar's or Wolfgang and I would try to stay with the Menzerna products that we know they are not good with microfiber...

Hence, I thought large throw polisher + thin wool + menzerna should be a really good idea... But you say NO. So case closed :)

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks for the detailed answer.



That's how I roll in the car detailing info world.






The reason why I made a question about Rupes or EVO21 (or other large throw polishers) + thin wool is because I can't use microfiber.


I know the microfiber system + rupes would work great but they need SMAT products like Meguiar's or Wolfgang



Wolfgang is not SMAT it's DAT.

:dunno:





and I would try to stay with the Menzerna products that we know they are not good with microfiber...



Who says Menzerna is not good with microfiber pads?????

Here's the deal. Cutting can and will leave scratching, marring, micro-marring, swirls or WHATEVER you want to call the scouring and haze left behind (if there's any left behind), and that's why it's NORMAL to follow any cutting step with at least one more follow-up step using a less aggressive pad and product.

In most cases, if you use a fiber pad of ANY type and you see less than perfect results then SIMPLY follow the cutting step wit a foam pad and a high quality polish that uses GREAT abrasive-technology and this secondary step will clean up the mess left by the first step that is of course normal when polishing most paints.





Hence, I thought large throw polisher + thin wool + menzerna should be a really good idea...

But you say NO. So case closed




First of all NO WHERE in my first reply did I EVER say that using a thin wool pad with Menzerna and a large orbit stroke polisher would not work.

Never said it. You need to re-read what I wrote.


I said I tend to use the RUPES system AS A SYSTEM that means I use their pads, their products and their tools as they intended.

RUPES does NOT make a wool cutting pad for their orbital polishers as of today - at least that I know of.

Lake Country makes foamed wool pads in a variety of sizes and thicknesses.

A: These are not RUPES pads.

B: I have not used these pads with RUPES tool so I don't know if they work or not.

C: I probably would never use these pads with RUPES tools and products because as I've stated multiple times in my replies I tend to use RUPES as intended and that is as a SYSTEM.

D: If "I" need more cut then instead of using a Purple Foamed Wool pad with an orbital polisher I'll simply use a real/normal wool cutting pad on a rotary buffer like the FLEX PE14.


I'm guessing there's a language barrier between us in this discussion on the forum but I cannot have people mis-interpreting what I say or mis-representing what I say in the forum world or the real world.


Here's my guess for what it's worth....

The Purple Foamed Wool pads on a long orbit stroke polisher like the RUPES BigFoot 15 and 21 when used with Menzerna products will PROBABLY cut really well.

Here's my next guess.... this combo will probably leave micro-marring in the paint. It won't be the Menzerna it will be the FACT that you're using a FIBER pad.

It's the INDIVIDUAL FIBERS that cut the paint. This is why, generally speaking FOAM pads will tend to finish out better than fiber pads on a WIDER SPECTRUM OF PAINT SYSTEMS.


I hope that helps.... I really have to move on to other hot projects....


:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

For those reading this that don't know what Purple Foamed Wool pads are you can get more info here,


Lake Country Purple Foamed Wool Pads (http://www.autogeek.net/foamed-wool-polishing-pads.html)



:dblthumb2:

[sansa]

Wolfgang is not SMAT it's DAT
sorry I know that... my fault.... But the meaning is SMAT(like meguiar's)+microfiber is a well tested combo



Who says Menzerna is not good with microfiber pads????Many people in the forums...



First of all NO WHERE in my first reply did I EVER say that using a thin wool pad with Menzerna and a large orbit stroke polisher would not work.

Never said it. You need to re-read what I wrote.


I said I tend to use the RUPES system AS A SYSTEM that means I use their pads, their products and their tools as they intended.

RUPES does NOT make a wool cutting pad for their orbital polishers as of today - at least that I know of.
You said it is a system so I think this means that everything different from the system should be avoid (like wool pads)...

I didn't know you've never tried Rupes with wool. Sorry for the misinterpratation...




The Purple Foamed Wool pads on a long orbit stroke polisher like the RUPES BigFoot 15 and 21 when used with Menzerna products will PROBABLY cut really well. I'll give it a try :props:

[Zubair]

Personal preference I use MF with my DA's and Wool with my Flex's. There are many that use wool on the Rupes Bigfoot, each to his own. As Mike said "TEST SPOT".

Alot of the time detailers overthink things when a test spot is all that was needed.

[sansa]

Personal preference I use MF with my DA's and Wool with my Flex's. There are many that use wool on the Rupes Bigfoot, each to his own. As Mike said "TEST SPOT".

Alot of the time detailers overthink things when a test spot is all that was needed.

Well I have to say Flex 3401 is more similar to a rotary because it provides more power on the surface and the orbit is shorter. It's really far from the rupes 21 style I think... So this is not the case..

Also the people you are talking about uses standard wool pads or purple wool pads with large throw DA polishers that is a kind of weird technique (really used in oriental countries) and that Mike does not suggest... The proper pad for a DA should be the thin wool pad but I haven't already seen an example of this pad with rupes 21 or evo21...