School me on pre-wax cleaners!

[Mike Honcho]

So the purpose of a pre-wax cleaner is to prep the paint for a wax/sealant, right? What exactly does this prep do? If a vehicle is not in need of a full blown polishing, I'm assuming this pre-wax cleaner is used to strip all the wax/sealant off so you can start with a clean slate to apply your wax/sealant of choice?

[KBsToy]

Auto Detailing Facts, auto detailing Tips, How to detailing Guides, how to polish, how to wax, DIY detailing, do it yourself guides (http://www.autogeek.net/detailingtips.htm)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions/81546-how-choose-use-one-step-cleaner-wax-mike-phillips.html

[FUNX650]

I'll start by listing as many, of what I see, as
some of the possible cleaning-"categories/steps"
that can, or may, be utilized/taken before(pre)
an application of any LSP.l

*******************************************
-Washes (ex: shampoos; RWs; WWs)
-Iron particles removers (ex: IronX, and its ilk)
-Claying (ex: Clay bars; clay "substitutes")
-Compounds/Polishes/AIOs (ex: products with abrasives)
-Products that are said to be Non-abrasive:
(ex: Prep-Sol, and its ilk; "paint-enhancers";
IPA/"panel-wipes"/'Coating preps; etc).

*******************************************

IMO:
You could use products in each of the
above listed categories/steps before(pre)
LSP-ing; or sort through what I'll refer to
as:
•"looks like there may be redundancies;
•how many bottles do I really need on my shelves..."


Bob

[PiPUK]

IMO, a prewax cleanser (which means a Polish without abrasive) is a product to use if the old lsp needs removed but no polishing is required. I should add that I feel it far from guaranteed to strip an lsp unless you are applying with a da machine (or similar).

If we are talking about creamy, polish-like products, you should not use them to remove all polishing oils - they will typically have many of these oils present so leave them behind (at least for some time, until they can evaporate away). If you want to remove polishing oils, you should be using a panel wipe or ipa blend (IMO, you need a lubricant beyond the ipa/water). One should not expect this to strip an lsp unless the lsp is very badly degraded or pretty rubbish.

[mwoolfso]

So the purpose of a pre-wax cleaner is to prep the paint for a wax/sealant, right? Correct. What exactly does this prep do? If a vehicle is not in need of a full blown polishing, I'm assuming this pre-wax cleaner is used to strip all the wax/sealant off so you can start with a clean slate to apply your wax/sealant of choice? Correct, but you still need to choose the right one as "clean slate" could mean a number of things besides just removing the previous LSP.


IMO, a prewax cleanser (which means a Polish without abrasive) is a product to use if the old lsp needs removed but no polishing is required. I should add that I feel it far from guaranteed to strip an lsp unless you are applying with a da machine (or similar).

If we are talking about creamy, polish-like products, you should not use them to remove all polishing oils - they will typically have many of these oils present so leave them behind (at least for some time, until they can evaporate away). If you want to remove polishing oils, you should be using a panel wipe or ipa blend (IMO, you need a lubricant beyond the ipa/water). One should not expect this to strip an lsp unless the lsp is very badly degraded or pretty rubbish.

Unless my mind is off a bit today, I have a different point of view.

Some pre-wax cleaners use chemical and/or abrasives to clean, or very lightly polish; but nothing too tough that it corrects. Some also have fillers in them too. All pre-wax cleaners will lift embedded dirt from the pores of the paint surface, and all will remove polishing oils and/or a wax or sealant LSP assuming there are none in the pre-wax cleaning product to begin with.

[dschia]

The way i see pre-wax cleaners is its meant to use before applying any wax/sealant/coating, yet can be very different type of product depending how it is market. Some coy market a cleaner wax or glaze (with abrasive and wax within) as pre-wax cleaner as it cleans and fill pores before the wax process. Some coy market a IPA alike type of products for mainly just removing oils without leaving behind much residue. Usually you can general idea on what the product aims to do based on their description.

[zx10r Elle]

Hello Mike Honcho,

Well im not gonna be 'schooling' anyone and would rather be schooled, but until that happens i'll go ahead and share what little ive gleaned from reading the literature available from most of the major manufacturers.

First id like to clarify i'll be using the term 'Cleanser' rather than 'Cleaner' when referring to these types of products as they In My Opinion fit within a different stage of the detailing process, as such; 'cleaners' would be relegated to the wash regime, such as includes Shampoos, Iron-X, Tar-X (and like), claying, and general decontamination finishing with a rinse thereby prepping the surface for the pending next step.

The next step would generally be the correction phase, that is, abrading or leveling the paint to remove imperfections or if so desired utilize glazes, fillers and such in an effort to produce a smooth and glossy finish acceptable enough to the operative to move to the next step.

The next step could be referred to as the (optional) 'Final Prep phase', that is, the surface has been thoroughly washed, decontaminated and polished to the point that is acceptable to the naked eye that an LSP seems all that is left to apply.

This is where conventionally a solution of IPA and water was frequently used to remove left over 'inconspicuous' contamination in the form of polishing oils/lubricants, as well as polishing dust residues which could interfere and inhibit the firm bonding of the LSP.

Seems paint 'cleansers' were developed to supplant 'IPA solution' in this regard as IPA and water exhibited weaknesses with consideration to the pristine condition of the paint surface as oft times it could produce marring or micro scratches. Paint cleansers promise more lubrication as well as more functionality in preserving and preparing the paint surface for the LSP.

That being said lets review what some of the Paint Cleansers supposedly actually accomplish :

CarpPro Eraser - Carpro is actually the most honest and straightforward with their description of Eraser in that it is directly compared to IPA Solutions, with the added benefit of lubrication, anti-static dust repellency, paint fillers as well as a pleasant smell.

Blackfire Coat Paint Prep - Blackfire states that Paint Prep has oil, filler, polish residue, finger print, grease, dust, waxes and smudge removal ability also comparing itself to IPA solution, with a pleasant smell and lubricity.

Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion - Is stated to remove waxes, grime and pollutants that washing cannot remove. It has fillers. Recommends to always follow with a wax.

GTechniq Panel Wipe - Literature states that Panel Wipe was specifically designed to remove oils and residues that could interfere with coating applications, as well as mentioning evaporation rate and lubricity.

Wolfgang Perfekt Finish Paint Prep - Wolfgang states that WGPFPP will remove polishing oils, fingerprints, fillers, silicone oils, as well as having lubricity and aroma benefits.

DP Coating Prep Polish - DP literature states that Prep Polish will remove unwanted contaminants that could prevent a coating from proper bonding. Also states ability to remove below-surface contaminants, water spots, road film and light surface staining.

Optimum Paint Prep - Optimum states that Paint Prep dissolves old wax, removes polishing as well as compounding oils.

Pinnacle Black Label Surface Cleansing Polish - Literature states that PBLSCP will remove embedded dirt and grime, heavy road film, light water spots, oxidation and light swirl marks as well as stains.


Paint Cleansers are 'NOT' polishes, that is to say, in this context they do not have the ability to physically abrade the paint surface to remove imperfections, they may evidently contain fillers which can conceal defects prior to LSP application however.

I realize this information is far from comprehensive but its the best I have done so far just to keep things organized for my own sake.

In fact, the best analogy I have come up with is Clearasil Acne Cream, its not used in the shower and its not used for applying makeup, but rather in between.


Steve

[PiPUK]

Unless my mind is off a bit today, I have a different point of view.

Some pre-wax cleaners use chemical and/or abrasives to clean, or very lightly polish; but nothing too tough that it corrects. Some also have fillers in them too. All pre-wax cleaners will lift embedded dirt from the pores of the paint surface, and all will remove polishing oils and/or a wax or sealant LSP assuming there are none in the pre-wax cleaning product to begin with.


This area is a bit of a mess of terminology. There is no strictly right answer.

Some pre-wax cleaners use chemical and/or abrasives to clean
I would say that all products of this class use chemical methods to clean. They will be oily emulsions. Once you add any abrasive, we would class it as being a polish, not a cleanser. Even if it only 'polishes' and does not 'correct', it is still mechanically abrading the surface and the term 'polishes' should be interpreted as it being a polish, not a cleanser.

Some also have fillers in them too
As above, once you add fillers, it isn't a cleanser any more. It now becomes a glaze (or an all in one, if you have abrasive present). If you think about it, it cannot be a cleanser because those fillers will leave something behind and thus the surface really can't be considered 'clean'.

All pre-wax cleaners will lift embedded dirt from the pores of the paint surface, and all will remove polishing oils and/or a wax or sealant LSP

Given that a prewax cleanser is basically a polish without abrasives, it will present the same issue of residual oils as the polish will. Unless the product is using highly volatile oil content (which would be a new one on me), the oils in the cleanser are going to be there, why are they going to magically disappear when the oils in a polish won't? In terms of stripping, if it is a cleanser, without abrasive, then you cannot guarantee that it will remove an LSP, especially if you are working by hand. Even some of our quick detailers can survive a cleanser when worked by hand. If it has abrasives, then the story changes but then it is not a cleanser, but a polish.

Again, this applies to the creamy type products, not to an IPA/panel wipe type product. I was going to spell out the hierarchy of this product type but I am going to keep it under my hat as it occurs that the confusion that many brands create might mean that they don't get it either (and I am not inclined to help!).

[FUNX650]

This area is a bit of a mess of terminology.
There is no strictly right answer.

:iagree:

For example:
Meguiar's definition of polishes, paint cleaners,
...even "pre-wax" itself...varies quite a bit from
mwoolfso's (m), and yours (p), that's listed below:
(Note: like the one I've highlighted)



(m)Some pre-wax cleaners use chemical
and/or abrasives to clean

(p)I would say that all products of this class use chemical methods to clean. They will be oily emulsions.

Once you add any abrasive, we would class
it as being a polish, not a cleanser.

Even if it only 'polishes' and does not 'correct',
it is still mechanically abrading the surface and
the term 'polishes' should be interpreted as it
being a polish, not a cleanser.

(m)Some also have fillers in them too

(p)As above, once you add fillers, it isn't a
cleanser any more. It now becomes a glaze
(or an all in one, if you have abrasive present).

If you think about it, it cannot be a cleanser
because those fillers will leave something behind
and thus the surface really can't be considered 'clean'.

(m)All pre-wax cleaners will lift embedded dirt
from the pores of the paint surface, and all will
remove polishing oils and/or a wax or sealant LSP

(p)Given that a prewax cleanser is basically a polish without abrasives, it will present the same issue of residual oils as the polish will. Unless the product is using highly volatile oil content (which would be a new one on me), the oils in the cleanser are going to be there, why are they going to magically disappear when the oils in a polish won't? In terms of stripping, if it is a cleanser, without abrasive, then you cannot guarantee that it will remove an LSP, especially if you are working by hand. Even some of our quick detailers can survive a cleanser when worked by hand. If it has abrasives, then the story changes but then it is not a cleanser, but a polish.

Again, this applies to the creamy type products, not to an IPA/panel wipe type product. I was going to spell out the hierarchy of this product type but I am going to keep it under my hat as it occurs that the confusion that many brands create might mean that they don't get it either (and I am not inclined to help!).


Bob

[Mike Honcho]

Great "lessons" guys!