Junk On Pads

[Bluemach1]

I am working on a black 1999 Lexus ES300 that has never seen a paint correction that I am aware of. We have had the car for about 10 years. It sits outside and gets washed infrequently.

My issue is that when compounding with a PC a lot of junk (dirt?) is coming up on my pads. Before compounding here is what I did:
1) I thoroughly washed the car
2) I clay barred the car with gray and some areas with black as necessary.
3) washed the car again
4) started compounding with Meguires 105 using PC7424 with orange hex logic pads.

The best way I could describe the how the pads look is muddy / dark / black.

There are a couple of spots where bird droppings had etched through the clear. Other than that, It's pretty solid.

Is it possible to have this much crap still in / on the paint after the steps I have taken or is the clear gone and I just think I am compounding it?

As a sanity check, after compounding the trunk and washing it thoroughly, I came back with Meguires 205 on white hex logic and the pads are still coming up dirty.

Any thoughts on this?

[iamahockeynut]

Sure that was a clear coated vehicle?Some of the older Lexus, Toyotas were single stage with some of the non metallic colors black, white, red etc.

[2black1s]

Sounds to me like you've got single-stage paint, i.e., no clear coat.

[LSNAutoDetailing]

Is the "black" you're seeing paint, or just dirt? If it solid black you have clear-coat issues or it's single-stage paint. You should probably get a paint depth meter to make sure you're not taking paint off. If unsure, grab your vin and go to your Lexus Dealer's body shop and ask them. They should be able to tell you definitively. If it is degraded as you say, I'm wondering about the depth of your clear-coat at this point.

If it's not "jet black" on the orange pad, and just mucky gunk looking, make sure you use Pinnacle XMT Pad Conditioner as well to keep the pad conditioned. Pads will normally get dirty and must be cleaned and primed after each panel. See Mike Phillips video on how to clean a pad on the fly.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html

Another problem may lie within the 10 years of infrequent care... You may find that your paint correction will be a multiple day event. You're trying to undo 10 years of abuse thrown at your car by mother nature. Have you tried Iron-X on the car? This step is between the wash and clay. Wash first, then iron-x, let it dwell (do this when there is no sunlight, must not dry!) Then rinse. Then clay/nano-skin.

Bird droppings will etch through the clear at different layers.. Meaning, one dropping isn't going to have a uniform depth of etch. It may take multiple passes...

I Use LC CSC Smart Pads Orange, however, you might have to try the yellow pad which has a stronger cut, or take multiple passes over the bird etchings. If that doesn't work, you may have to resort to wet-sand with 3000 Grit 3m... best to have a pro do it if you're not comfortable.

[Kyle_Elantra]

Does the car have tinted clear coat? By you saying it's "muddy" and not just "black", perhaps the clear coat is tinted.

[Bluemach1]

Sure that was a clear coated vehicle?Some of the older Lexus, Toyotas were single stage with some of the non metallic colors black, white, red etc.


Sounds to me like you've got single-stage paint, i.e., no clear coat.


Is the "black" you're seeing paint, or just dirt? If it solid black you have clear-coat issues or it's single-stage paint. You should probably get a paint depth meter to make sure you're not taking paint off. If unsure, grab your vin and go to your Lexus Dealer's body shop and ask them. They should be able to tell you definitively. If it is degraded as you say, I'm wondering about the depth of your clear-coat at this point.

If it's not "jet black" on the orange pad, and just mucky gunk looking, make sure you use Pinnacle XMT Pad Conditioner as well to keep the pad conditioned. Pads will normally get dirty and must be cleaned and primed after each panel. See Mike Phillips video on how to clean a pad on the fly.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html

Another problem may lie within the 10 years of infrequent care... You may find that your paint correction will be a multiple day event. You're trying to undo 10 years of abuse thrown at your car by mother nature. Have you tried Iron-X on the car? This step is between the wash and clay. Wash first, then iron-x, let it dwell (do this when there is no sunlight, must not dry!) Then rinse. Then clay/nano-skin.

Bird droppings will etch through the clear at different layers.. Meaning, one dropping isn't going to have a uniform depth of etch. It may take multiple passes...

I Use LC CSC Smart Pads Orange, however, you might have to try the yellow pad which has a stronger cut, or take multiple passes over the bird etchings. If that doesn't work, you may have to resort to wet-sand with 3000 Grit 3m... best to have a pro do it if you're not comfortable.

I am shocked to learn that these older Lexus and Toyota's could have single stage paint. Never would have thought it.

From what I am now reading, I am almost certain that this is a single stage paint job. It was common for their black paints. I truly am blown away by this revelation.

So now that I have compounded this single stage paint, now what do I do? Continue on with 205 and sealant as I normally would or is there another process that I need to switch to?

What, if any, damage have I done to the paint. It looks pretty good now after just the 105.

[2black1s]

... So now that I have compounded this single stage paint, now what do I do? Continue on with 205 and sealant as I normally would or is there another process that I need to switch to?

Yes! Or just seal it up right now if you're happy with the appearance as-is.

What, if any, damage have I done to the paint. It looks pretty good now after just the 105.

None.

****

[lots2learn]

I have a 2001 black ES300 and it's single stage. I've been correcting the paint for several years with a 1st generation PC, Meguiars UC and Meguiars yellow polishing pads. This combination has worked very well for me through the years but the pads always turned black and needed to be cleaned on the fly. The paint is actually very soft so I've never used 105. Just a few weeks ago I used the Flex 3401, Meguiars yellow polishing pads and 205. The results were astounding with much less paint removal. Once you get the shine you're looking for and with good maintenance you may find that you'll rarely need the power of 105 again. Good luck.

[LSNAutoDetailing]

I have a 2001 black ES300 and it's single stage. I've been correcting the paint for several years with a 1st generation PC, Meguiars UC and Meguiars yellow polishing pads. This combination has worked very well for me through the years but the pads always turned black and needed to be cleaned on the fly. The paint is actually very soft so I've never used 105. Just a few weeks ago I used the Flex 3401, Meguiars yellow polishing pads and 205. The results were astounding with much less paint removal. Once you get the shine you're looking for and with good maintenance you may find that you'll rarely need the power of 105 again. Good luck.

This is a great thread because it just goes to show that you cannot take something for granted when working on a car. You can't assume just because it's a late 90's or 2000's model that it's going to be clear coated.

Quick test to see if you have single stage paint. Grab a MF Foam hand applicator, use some Meg's Scratch-X, put a small pea sized amount on the pad, prime it and gently buff a small inconspicuous section. If the pad is clear (product only), it's clear-coated. If the pad changes to the color of the car, it's single stage paint.

Here is a great article from Mike Phillips on single stage paint:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/66800-4-steps-restore-single-paint-paint-1972-mercedes-benz-280-se.html


But remember, before just grabbing product, always use the least aggressive and do a test spot. 105 is a cut level #10 SMAT and 205 is a fine polish with micro abrasives and is a #4 on the cut scale.

[Bluemach1]

Thanks for that information. I need to do some more research on single stage paint. Maybe some questions can be answered here?

Is "new" (in my case 1999) single stage paint different than "old" (as shown in the example you posted)?

Can the newer paint take more abuse by mother nature and hold up to more working time with a machine?

This car, as earlier noted, sits outside and does not get much special attention. We are in Northern California and get lots of sun and a fair amount of rain. There is NO oxidation on this paint at all. However, there are plenty of water spots. I have worked pretty aggressively with 105 and orange hex pads and the water spot rings are still somewhat visible. As you know, I thought I had clear coat. Because of this, I halted compounding fearing that I would break through the CC. But now knowing that it is SS, how much can this be worked? I suppose it is compoundable / polish-able up to the point where it breaks through to the primer?

If that is true, I can go back and work some more.

To finish off after doing my 105 and 205, I have changed my product line up to include M07 and M21.

[lots2learn]

I'll leave the response regarding old vs new SS paint to those who know. I don't think you're quit satisfied with the results yet and I get it. The water spots would be driving me nuts. Paul_g has the right approach with least aggressive method. If it were me I would back down to a less aggressive compound and a less aggressive pad. If you stay with Meguiars then consider Ultimate Compound or Swirl-X and make a couple extra passes. But I must say, the best advice I didn't follow was to learn to live with some imperfections. Particularly when working on a car you drive every day. I didn't follow this advice and I caused a bigger problem by almost burning through the paint while chasing an etching caused by bird droppings. Truth is, I see the imperfections but most people don't.

I got excited when I saw you were going to use #7. If you have not used it yet then you will be amazed. #7 seems to bring about the most amazing results when applying to dark single stage paint. I love this stuff and it never ceases to bring a smile to my face when I use it. The polishing oils just brings tired paint back to life. I'm excited for you because I know what it did for my Lexus the first time I used it.

[OCD Detailing]

Just to throw out another possibility, the black can be from the rubber moldings. I know if I even hit the sunroof rubber moldings for a second with the pad, it turns black.

[Mike Phillips]

Does this picture look like what you're seeing?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1590/Autoscrub013.jpg


Those pictures were taken from this article,


How to remove stains and embedded dirt out of paint (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/56794-how-remove-stains-embedded-dirt-out-paint.html)



:)

[Mike Phillips]

Here's an article I wrote that covers the majority ot types of paints....


Single Stage Paint - Tinted Clears - Basecoat/Clearcoat - Embedded Dirt (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/43347-types-paint-single-stage-paint-tinted-clears-basecoat-clearcoat-embedded-dirt.html)



Lots of good pictures showing the differences too...


:xyxthumbs:

[Bluemach1]

Yes, indeed it does! I have two things happening here. 1) black single stage paint. 2) dirt embedded in the paint.

The difficulty is being able to tell which is which. I have completed the compounding with 105 and orange pads. I have moved on to 205 and white pads. Still pulling up a lot of "brown" mixed with the black. After I finish with the 105, I will go back over with a pre-wax cleaner then M07 then M21.

The paint on this Lexus is really, really bad with lots of pitting from droppings and water stains. I am really going above and beyond what it should get but it is good experience.