Quite the mystery - How soft can clearcoat/fresh paint be?

[Toxix]

Quite the mystery - How soft can clearcoat/fresh paint be? (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/89994-quite-mystery-how-soft-can-clearcoat-fresh-paint.html)

Hey Mike and all,

I'm in a dilemma and need as much help as everyone can offer.

Vehicle - 2012 Mustang GT - Black (UA)
Products Used - DG 901, Clay, - Menz FG400 + SF4000, Griot's Garage Paint Prep, Flex equipped with Hybrid Orange and White Pads

So I have one of my regular, loyal clients with a 2012 Mustang GT, Black.
It was recently in an accident where the driver's side got damaged.
The fender, door, rear quarter were all replaced and painted late last year (August 2014).

The first thing I noticed upon washing and drying this car is that the towels, the same waffle weave towels I've been using for years were leaving some very fine scratches and holograms but ONLY on the driver/newly painted side. Although unlikely, I assumed that towel had some grit in it or something. I moved onto a new towel on a different panel, same thing, holograms and fine scratches. These towels are stored, washed and handled very meticulously and have been for many years.

I polished out the car using the Menzerna + Flex weapons and got the paint in perfect condition.
I stripped the car using IPA + Griot's Garage Paint Prep. After this, I proceeded to rinse and dry the car.

My surprise (and rage) the fine scratches and slight hologramming were back after I dried the car. Same places, fine scratches on the driver side fender and fine scratches + holograms on the driver side door. No scratches, no holograms or anything on the factory painted side.

I was very careful to use BRAND NEW towels from my stock this time around.

Any ideas on what could be causing this? Why is it the driver side, this newly painted side is being dominated by my gentle towels and washing techniques?
I have used brand new towels, nothing has changed on my end, was very careful with all buffing towels + anything that touched the car.

The repair and the paint job look fine to me but I'm very concerned about the durability of the clear.

So some questions:
Did the paint shop use cheap clear? Or nearly not enough/too much?

Is there something I can do? This is one of my regular clients and I want to make sure his ride is perfect every time.

Do these panels have to go in for a repaint?



Any help would be greatly appreciated from any of you.

[ihaveacamaro]

First I thought it was because it was newly repainted, but once I read that it was painted in august, I knew that wasn't the case. After 30-90 days, any repaint is good to be polished.

Some paint, including repaints can be very soft. They are a beast to work with as you have found out. Some paints feel like the wind could scratch them! lol

It does not have to be due to lack of clearcoat or too much. Just the properties of certain paints.

Nothing to do except be uber careful. I use sf4500 in these cases, because I've found that to be the best polish on super soft paints.

[Toxix]

First I thought it was because it was newly repainted, but once I read that it was painted in august, I knew that wasn't the case. After 30-90 days, any repaint is good to be polished.

Some paint, including repaints can be very soft. They are a beast to work with as you have found out. Some paints feel like the wind could scratch them! lol

It does not have to be due to lack of clearcoat or too much. Just the properties of certain paints.

Nothing to do except be uber careful. I use sf4500 in these cases, because I've found that to be the best polish on super soft paints.

Hey Roshan, thanks for your response (and also the videos you take the time to make to help us all).

From what you are saying it seems like my client is out of luck here.

I find this quite disappointing as I have used the SF4500 already so when it comes to weekly washing and drying but one half of the car will forever be finely scratched and hologram'd out?

If this were a daily driver I would have accepted this but he travels far and wide with his Mustang to go to autoshows and put his car upon display (which in return, brings me business).

Can the bodyshop where he got his panels painted do something about this?

[Mike Phillips]

Can the bodyshop where he got his panels painted do something about this?




They could repaint and use a different paint?


How about this idea?

Get the e-mail of the shop owner or manager, (most people have e-mail in the year 2015), and share the link to this thread with both the shop owner and manager and the owner of the car.

Bring everyone into the loop.

If in fact the issue is the actual type of paint then this is good feedback for the body shop and also shows the car owner that,

A: The issue is with the paint not your skills or product choices.

B: You're pro-active to help everyone and see this issue through to a remedy


Just some food for though...


Another option would be to print this thread out and give the owner a copy and see if the owner will go with you to the shop to share a copy with the key personnel at the shop.


:)

[FUNX650]

Addressing some of the bodyshop/painter unknowns/issues:

-BC/CC Paints: Type/Brand used...?

-Paint (CC) thickness...?

-Paint curing method...? (probably never will match
the OEM's paint kitchens' heat levels.)
Question:
Does/Will higher heat lead to "harder" cured CC-paint?

-Paint's cut&buff-Man...?: makes or breaks the paint job
Note:
Some of the scratches...and rotary holograms...were possibly inflicted at this stage.

*********************************************


...so when it comes to weekly washing and drying

but one half of the car will forever be finely scratched and hologram'd out?

To this I'll say that:
-No way the vehicle has to have holograms!
You should be able to remove the rotary-induced holograms. (Use a DA, like a PC7424XP....per: MP)

-Afterwards, if there are any scratches left...attack them by using "the least aggressive first"<<<(MP)...using something like a very mild polish and a Waxing-pad; etc.

Best of Luck!


Bob

[ihaveacamaro]

Hey Roshan, thanks for your response (and also the videos you take the time to make to help us all).

From what you are saying it seems like my client is out of luck here.

I find this quite disappointing as I have used the SF4500 already so when it comes to weekly washing and drying but one half of the car will forever be finely scratched and hologram'd out?

If this were a daily driver I would have accepted this but he travels far and wide with his Mustang to go to autoshows and put his car upon display (which in return, brings me business).

Can the bodyshop where he got his panels painted do something about this?

Well as Bob says above, it shouldn't have holograms if you're using a DA.

But for the fine scatches, Bob also gave another great tip which I forgot, sf4500 on a red wax pad can work to remove scratches as well.

What you could do is get it to be perfect one time, and then put a coating on it. The coating may be harder than the clear coat and allow it to be washed properly.

As for the body shop, see what they say. Apart from a repaint, I don't know what they could do, because if you can't remove the scratches, there's hardly any chance that their in house detailer could, at least from what I've seen by body shop detailers in my area lol.

[2old2change]

Kevin Brown has a method he has shared with those that have come across super soft paint that seems to scratch with just the use of a micro fiber towel. Basically he puts 5-6 drops of M205 into a 32oz. water bottle with sprayer. Basically water buffing. I will search and see if I can find his write-up.

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

I polished out the car using the Menzerna + Flex weapons and got the paint in perfect condition.
I stripped the car using IPA + Griot's Garage Paint Prep. After this, I proceeded to rinse and dry the car.

My surprise (and rage) the fine scratches and slight hologramming were back after I dried the car. Same places, fine scratches on the driver side fender and fine scratches + holograms on the driver side door. No scratches, no holograms or anything on the factory painted side.

Any help would be greatly appreciated from any of you.


Sounds like the paint did not cure properly. It should not be this soft 6 months after a repaint. Perhaps the baking cycle was not performed right. (temperature, time, etc)

As for taking care of it, does the paint swirl up after just wiping away the polish residue? Or did it come back after your IPA, GG Paint Prep inspection?

[Kevin Brown]

Kevin Brown has a method he has shared with those that have come across super soft paint that seems to scratch with just the use of a micro fiber towel. Basically he puts 5-6 drops of M205 into a 32oz. water bottle with sprayer. Basically water buffing. I will search and see if I can find his write-up.

Thanks, Paul.

Yup. And it can be MIRACULOUS.

Lots of high-end guys using this procedure, as well as several that are not so experienced.

[Toxix]

To answer a few questions here.

- I did not use a rotary, I used the Flex 3401 with Hybrid Orange and White Pads for FG400 + SF4000

- The holograms I mentioned are not rotary holograms. More like towel swipe scratches and such. To elaborate on it, you can see which way I swiped the towel based on looking at the hologram looking scratches on the paint.

This is especially irritating because of I know I am not doing anything wrong; Also, one half of the car is filled with these light scratches which shine in day light on larger panels like the doors and fenders.

More importantly, every. single. time. the car is washed by himself or I the finer scratches and towel marks will build up and build up.

If it was noticeable after only one rinse and wipe down I can't imagine what washing 2-3 times a week + before shows would look like.

[Toxix]

Sounds like the paint did not cure properly. It should not be this soft 6 months after a repaint. Perhaps the baking cycle was not performed right. (temperature, time, etc)

As for taking care of it, does the paint swirl up after just wiping away the polish residue? Or did it come back after your IPA, GG Paint Prep inspection?

I am VERY concerned that this is the case that the car will need to go back into the bodyshop.
Upon wiping away the polish residue I use a very plush and soft microfiber towel similar to the Cobras.

Upon drying with a waffleweave the scratches appear as if I had taken it to a touch-car-wash.

[Setec Astronomy]

I know Thomas Dekany did a Jet Black BMW some years ago, that he could not wipe off the polish without marring it, and IIRC he had to resort to using a machine to polish off the buffing residue (rather than using a towel by hand). I can't find the thread though, I imagine it was on Autopia. Maybe he will chime in.

Not that that helps you, really. It will only help you delivering it back to the customer without marring, won't help him with his car show troubles.

[tdekany]

Ha! Mine name being mentioned in the same thread with KEVIN BROWN's!!!!

If I read it correctly, you used menzerna polishes? BTW, I wouldn't use WW towels on paint, but I do love them for drying glass.

1 - I believe that your polishes hide/cover up and not really remove final imperfections. So when you wash/rinse/clean the surface, the oils are washed away. Or you rub too hard trying to get the polish off the paint. Recently, I did 7 day old repaint and HD POLISH was the only one that came off effortlessly, where even Optimum's would just smear and I'd put back some light swirls. But as Setec said, once you return the car, what happens then? Try coating the panels for easier maintenance.

[Setec Astronomy]

Ha! Mine name being mentioned in the same thread with KEVIN BROWN's!!!!

Good points, Thomas--do you remember the thread I was talking about? It was at that dealer you used to work at frequently.

[davey g-force]

- The holograms I mentioned are not rotary holograms. More like towel swipe scratches and such. To elaborate on it, you can see which way I swiped the towel based on looking at the hologram looking scratches on the paint.

It's just a terminology thing, but I'm pretty sure holograms is the name given to the patterns inflicted by incorrect or aggressive use of a rotary buffer ONLY.

Anything inflicted by hand, DA or anything else are not called holograms. The term "marring" is commonly used for those cases. :)