Looking for some advice on swirls, polishes and cars

[tampatopless]

Former Vette owner/Zaino user who has decided to take the plunge into machine application. Used to do the Vette by hand with Zaino but layering the applications would take an entire weekend and don't have that much time. Plus I traded the Vette in a 2014 Red Mustang Vert. Want to get to a sealant that takes only one coat per outing.

Here are the cars I have in my garage:

1999 White Nissan Altima - Severe exterior degradation with oxidation. Clayed and compounded by hand a couple of years ago. Used Zaino for LSP. Came out pretty well. Kid took the car and didn't even bother to wash it. Now two years later, the car is back and looking pretty rough. Parked under oak for two years. I was really thinking about repainting but car has 160 K on it and there is some clear coat left.

2014 Red Mustang - Beautiful finish but some pretty obvious swirl marks. Looks like it was taken to the car wash a lot, hence the swirls.

2012 Silver Civic - Maybe the best finish of the lot. As with silver, it always looks good.

I have Meg's Ultimate Compound on the shelf. On order from Auto Geek I have Porter Cable, Wolfgang Deep Gloss Sealant, Wolfgang Finishing Glaze and Wolfgang Swirl Remover. I ordered the Porter bundle that comes with a few pads.

I wasn't gonna clay any of the three cars. I mean if you are using compounds and polishes and glazes, what's the point? Won't that take off the imperfections? Plus, I am really hesitant to clay the Mustang and Civic. I don't want to mess up a good thing. Clayed the Altima and Vette once. Didn't do it any harm but I read a lot of stories about people who made their problem worse with claying.

In any event, here is my plan and was wondering what you think of it. All include washing with either Dawn or Meg's carwash. Leaning toward Dawn to strip away old waxes, etc.

Altima - Meg's Ultimate Compound, Finishing Glaze, Wolfgang Sealant.

Mustang - Swirl Remover, maybe finishing glaze and Wolfgang sealant. Now wondering if Swirl Remover is too aggressive. Paint has beautiful gloss but definite swirl marks.

Civic - Finishing glaze and sealant. Maybe just only the sealant.

Was wondering what you guys thought of the plan? I don't want to spend any more time than I have to, but I obviously don't want to waste time by putting a last stage product on a car not properly prepped.

[spazzz]

I think most guys here wouldn't touch a pad to a car without first claying.
Claying might induce a few swirls but the polishing stage would easily remedy those. A proper clay lube is important. I personally use the Mothers kit and have good luck on my 11 year old GM black paint.

Without the clay step you would grab imbedded particles and drag it around in your pad, kind of defeating the purpose.

Using dawn has been proven to not really do anything special for stripping wax. The clay and polish steps would do this anyway allowing your sealant/wax to bond to clean paint.

I used Griots paint prep but that stuff scares me. I did a test on an old headlight to see how it affected plastic and it pretty much melted it. So with that route you have to rinse asap.

I am sure some of the pros can tell you the best combo since I am not familiar with the Wolfgang polishes.

[cardaddy]

Don't know if anyone said it... but :welcome:to AGO! :cheers:

You've got products coming (plus the Megs UC) that should be able to do the job. That's the good news. I would suggest picking up a bottle of Megs Ultimate Polish as well. Reason being is that the Meguiar's products are a totally different type of abrasive technology than the Wolfgang (which are a spin off from Menzerna). (Megs being SMAT, Menzerna/Wolfgang being DAT.)

Here are two excellent threads/articles on SMAT and DAT technology.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23561-smat-pack-everything-you-ever-wanted-know-about-meguiar-s-smat-products.html

The Difference Between Diminishing and Non-Diminishing Abrasive Polishes (http://www.autopia.org/forums/the-detail-institute-presented-by-autopia-carcare-com/40223-difference-diminishing-diminishing-abrasive-polishes.html)


The bad news is you REALLY need to clay it. To expand on the previous reply, moving to compound and/or polishing without claying you'll just end up taking those microscopic particles and moving them at high speed all around, and all over your paint. Imagine taking sandpaper (albeit ever so fine) and putting it on your buffer pad along with your compound product. The results you get without compounding WILL be different than WITH compounding.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/27967-baggie-test-how-inspect-above-surface-bonded-contaminants.html

Want it to be much easier to do, be MUCH more cost effective, last longer, AND be able to do it with your PC?

Get a 5½" Nanoskin, fine grade pad for your PC. (Or the twin pack of red and blue hand held Nanoskin pads.) You can do all three of your vehicles with it, 3~4 times over. :dblthumb2: Clay will not last that long, but yes, it's half the price. Clay however is junk if you drop it. It's also junk if you do something really dirty with it (like the bottom part of the vehicle) and try to move it back to a more critical area (such as the upper parts, hood, fenders, etc.).

You mentioned you ordered the PC kit "with a few pads". Of course a 'few' are a start, but what we (everyone that's been machine buffing with similar machines) all know is that unless you ordered a minimum of 3 orange and 3 white you don't have enough to get a vehicle completed. Not that only orange and white are the only one's you'll need, but they are an EXCELLENT start. (Yellow has the most cut of any foam pad and generally isn't needed but in the worst of circumstances.)

What I'd suggest is 4 orange, 4 white, 2 blue, 2 black. Or if you take your time when compounding and polishing you might could get away with 3 orange, 4 white, 2 blue, 2 black, 1 red.

Notice I always keep at least 4 white in that list because you can use them for compounding an polishing, they are very versatile.

Reason being, pads build up and hold heat inside. You'll get the obvious heat on the surface from working product on paint, but you'll actually end up with more heat between the backing plate and the back of the pad in the Velcro from the kinetic energy (friction) being converted into heat. It has been so bad in some instances that not only was the pad damaged beyond repair, but the backing plate itself has literally melted.

So when working with a pad, especially during the compounding stage (as this builds more heat than when polishing) it is CRITICAL that you swap out a used pad fairly often for one that's cool. On a hood for instance, I'd always suggest a minimum of 2 compounding pads. Same thing for the roof. You can do a front fender, a bumper, generally a door with only 1 pad (for each panel). I'll break up the door (on a coupe) and rear quarter panel into 2 areas, using 2 pads there. Basically 2 for the entire side. It's not uncommon to use 6 (or more) compounding pads, (especially on larger vehicles) if you're moving straight through, start to finish. It just makes it easier to keep moving than to wait on pads and backing plates to cool down. (The backing plate will retain heat from the last pad, so it's important not to overheat it or you'll end up having to change it out as well, lest you melt it down.)

If you have 3 (or hopefully 4) you can start with 2 of your pads primed and ready to go.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/35292-how-prime-foam-pad-when-using-da-polisher.html

Once you start on the hood, cleaning that pad on the fly after EVERY 20"x20" (no larger than 24"x24") section. When half the hood is finished, take that pad off and (after cleaning it on the fly) lay it to the side where it can get air underneath it, foam side down, allowing it to cool. Move to your second pad and finish the panel. At the end, clean that one and lay it aside to cool. Take your third pad, start with that one and keep going. Hopefully by the time that one has finished it's work (on a fender, door, etc.) you can then go back to the first pad (that is now cooled) and use it to keep going. Just keep rotating them like that, first-in - first-out.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html

Another reason for a good selection of pads is to accommodate various paint systems. On your 3 vehicles you have totally different paint systems. That Nissan paint is likely a bit soft, especially as it's old and a bit neglected. The Honda silver is probably the hardest of the lot, leaving the red Ford paint in the middle. Actually I've seen the metallic blue paint on the 2012 Ford GT500 as being pretty darned soft.

Will you need more than the Wolfgang TSR? I'd say so. I use Meguiar's and Menzerna more than Wolfgang (but have used, and keep the sample bottles in my selection) and will say that TSR will finish down pretty darned good. On the Honda it may be all you want, but on that Mustang I'd do a 2-step process with it. Good chance that this is where you'll experiment on whether the orange or white pads will get your first level of correction to where you want it.

Always do a test spot, ALWAYS!
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/50162-how-do-test-spot.html

The test spot will tell you everything you want to know about your pad and product selection. When you're new to machine buffing I'd say tape the hood off and make 6 24"x24" test areas. (You'll have room for more, but that's a start.) Select your pads, your product, your machine speed, and write it down. Your arm speed and arm pressure should be the same for BOTH pad/product selections and you also want to do the same amount of section passes when doing the test spot. With SMAT products I like to use 4 ~5 passes as a first measure to see what is happening. You can end up doing as many as 6~7 but with 4~5 you can start to see the results. With DAT however you'll need to work it through till it works down, which will be 7, 8, even 10 section passes.

Then the easiest way is to prime 2 *different cut/different color* pads with the same compounding product. So your notes should read something like.

Section 1 & 2 Megs SMAT compound: (Maximum 6 passes)
Section 1: orange pad, machine speed 5, Megs UC, medium arm pressure, slow arm speed, 4 passes . (Arm speed should be 1" per second or so.)
Section 2: white pad, machine speed 5, Megs UC, medium arm pressure, slow arm speed, 4 passes.

Now here is where you can change it up a bit with the same 2 compound/pad selections. You can turn the speed up to 5.5, change to a bit more are pressure, maybe 1 or 2 more section passes then compare the two.

Same thing when you start to do a test spot with your Wolfgang product. Just remembering that you'll need to work it down more, AND..... you can likely start with a higher cut pad than you did with the SMAT product.

Something like, Section 3 & 4 Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover (Maximum 8 passes)
Section 3: orange pad, machine speed 4.5, WG TSR, medium pressure, slow speed, 5 passes.
Section 4: white pad, machine speed 5.5, WG TSR, medium pressure, slow speed, 5 passes.

Obviously you'll be working the WG (DAT) products longer than you did the Meguiar's to get them to work down, but you want to stop, wipe it down, then inspect it at a similar amount of passes in order to see the difference not only between the two pads with the same product, but the different products with the same color pads. You'll be surprised at how much correction you can get with only 4 passes of a SMAT product, just as you will be amazed at how well the DAT product cuts during those first 2 passes (yet it'll continue to break down and get finer and finer).

So the key is to see what it looks like *before* it's totally worked down in order to get a 'feel' as to what works best for your particular situation/paint/pad/product.

Remember, use the least aggressive method to get the job done.:xyxthumbs:

Once you pick the section that you like the best (for the compounding stage) you can then do something similar with your pad/product selection for the polishing stage.

I'd (at least on the test spots) use similar products on the compound and polish test to see what works with what. That's not to say that you wouldn't go back after Meguiar's 101, 105, D300, or UC with Menzerna 4000 or WG Glaze. Just that you'll never know what works with what until you've tried it.

It's no big deal to compound with SMAT then finish with DAT.... many do. I do sometimes, but not every time. In fact, it's well accepted that DAT based products tend to finish down better overall for a wider group of users than SMAT products. SMAT products can and do finish down to an EXCELLENT finish. You just have to realize that you don't work them as long as DAT products. Like I said earlier, 4~6 passes, period. Wipe it clean, and if it needs more correction... then reapply product to your pad and do a few more passes. Being as it doesn't break down you have to be careful not to overwork the product (thereby making the abrasive particles get larger along the way with spent product, abraded paint, etc.) and end up hurting the overall finish. Whereas DAT you just keep going till it's gone.


So that was the long answer.

Short answer is YES you need to clay. :D

[JMP]

WOW!! And thanks for that...even if review for some...GREAT write up....AGO correspondent in the making!! Wolfgang trio, four pads each orange, white and blue, wax of choice( Collinite, pinnacle...etc.. Paint prep is most important) or seal and wax. CLAYING the paint is most important. DO THIS MOST IMPORTANT STEP. Good luck, welcome...ask any questions.

[dlc95]

Thanks, Tony! I just took screen shots of that post to keep in my reference compilation. :xyxthumbs:

To the op: The clay is almost a must before machine polishing on my opinion.

[tampatopless]

That's excellent advice. And I'm gonna clay each vehicle. I've clayed before, so I"m familiar with the process. And I had no idea about the number of pads. However, only a few are coming with the package and I might have trouble getting some shipped before this weekend, which was when I was going to compound and polish the Altima. Might try to find some more locally. But I'm not gonna start any car without a good number on hand.

My next question is about the WG Swirl Removal. Not exactly thrilled about tearing into the clearcoat of a beautiful red 2014 car. But the swirl marks are definitely there. I guess I could do with a lesser aggressive pad. The AutoGeek chart is helpful. However, it puts WG Swirl Remover on the aggressive end. Was wondering about a less aggressive polish. However, if I'm reading you correctly, CarDaddy, I can use something like the swirl remover with a less aggressive pad.

Also, on the Honda, I think I'm just gonna clay it, hit it with the WG Finishing Glaze, seal it and then leave it alone.

Do folks typically use the DA to apply sealant? I'm a former Zaino by hand person, so I understand the need the put on very thin coats. Just wondering if the DA is good at that.

Also, good tip on the test sections. That's probably critical for the red Mustang. Plus, it's easy to see what's going on with a red car. Not so much with the white Nissan.

[MarkD51]

That's excellent advice. And I'm gonna clay each vehicle. I've clayed before, so I"m familiar with the process. And I had no idea about the number of pads. However, only a few are coming with the package and I might have trouble getting some shipped before this weekend, which was when I was going to compound and polish the Altima. Might try to find some more locally. But I'm not gonna start any car without a good number on hand.

My next question is about the WG Swirl Removal. Not exactly thrilled about tearing into the clearcoat of a beautiful red 2014 car. But the swirl marks are definitely there. I guess I could do with a lesser aggressive pad. The AutoGeek chart is helpful. However, it puts WG Swirl Remover on the aggressive end. Was wondering about a less aggressive polish. However, if I'm reading you correctly, CarDaddy, I can use something like the swirl remover with a less aggressive pad.

Also, on the Honda, I think I'm just gonna clay it, hit it with the WG Finishing Glaze, seal it and then leave it alone.

Do folks typically use the DA to apply sealant? I'm a former Zaino by hand person, so I understand the need the put on very thin coats. Just wondering if the DA is good at that.

Also, good tip on the test sections. That's probably critical for the red Mustang. Plus, it's easy to see what's going on with a red car. Not so much with the white Nissan.

Wolfgang Finishing Glaze is a very fine polish, some here have said the equivalent of Menzerna SF4000. I've used it, and can say that it may work you if you plan on removing considerable swirls. That it may not effectively get the job done.

But I agree to try that first, and perhaps see where it will get you? Many thoughts on which techniques, and products to use.

You might be able to get away with the WG FG on certain areas, and finish down to perfect. In any case, even with WG FG, and soft pads like a White Pad, you will see improvement. Whether you are personally happy with 75%-85% correction is of course up to you.

One can then always resort to a more aggressive product, like WGTSR on the whole vehicle, or just certain areas which need more correction, then again follow behind with the WG FG. The WG TSR is a fine enough polish, that it can finish down to a beautiful jaw dropping finish, where one doesn't have to resort to WG FG. As you assume, sometimes less is better.

One of the most important aspects then of car care, is after then doing all that work, the process begins all over again, and dependent upon what products and techniques you use to wash your vehicles, this will be highly important. With careless methods of washing, those swirls can be back just as bad as before within just a few washes.

As for hand applying sealants-waxes, I myself prefer hand application versus machine.
Machine may cover larger panels quicker, have a tendency to better "massage" in the product, but machine application can also be a little bit messy too. It's easier to sling product, get where you don't want it, and this might then mean extra time with cleanup getting product out of panel seams, trim, glass, etc.

With hand application I can better control exactly where the product is to be applied, and stay away from areas where I don't want product.

The most important, is well prepped paint, then all sealants, waxes and even coatings will last longer.

[MarkD51]

Sealants, and Waxes of course do offer a good degree of mar resistance.
One important rule of thumb I feel, is to always err on over-waxing, rather than under-waxing.

Let's say Zaino, DG, WG Sealant 3.0, etc., claims a hypothetical 8 months protection. Of course IMO, it will be unwise to then wait 8 months for the heck of it, to then "test" those claims before another re-application.

An older couple I know here, bought themselves a gorgeous 2015 deep Grey-Blue Metallic Hyundai Sonata about 4-5 months ago, fully loaded, leather interior, a really nice classy looking car.

I know the wife always keeps her cars looking pretty, her last one was a silver 2003 Mazda 3 that just before she sold it, it looked like a 2013 model, that clean.

I assume her husband does not have a DA machine, and just last week, I looked again at her 2015 Sonata in the bright sun, the paint was absolutely flawless and totally swirl free.

This tells me that the husband does excersize extreme care when washing, and is keeping up with protectants on the paint, and trim.

Keeping cars looking like that here is no easy task I'll say, this area is a very dusty region.

[Paul A.]

Welcome, tampatopless, to AutoGeek and it's wealth of incredibly usefull info! I, too, came from the "Zaino days" and have moved on to many other products for various reasons. You have received lots of good info here already and that is a testament to the wealth of experience and expertise here.

My only emphasis to add is what i have found an invaluable step in the process...paint decontamination. That is, getting all the crap out of and off the paint before machining it to perfection. I treat that as a seperate "mechanical" or physical process first after the wash and before any machine cut, buff and/or polish. I have been claying for several years and was happy thinking i was removing imbedded contaminants. While it was a necessary step and yielded great results, i now add my iron removal step in as well. I love Iron X and now remove even more stuff from the paint i never realized was there. I am now more confident i am maching "cleaner" paint.

You also have what looks like a stable of different paint hardness. Every Ford i have done has been on the hard paint side while every Honda has been on the soft side. The Nissans i have done have ranged from soft to medium. What i am hinting at is that what may be needed to level swirls on the Mustang may remove too much on the Civic. As previously recommended, always do a test spot and work from the least aggressive to eventually find what is effective for each vehicle.

I will also add that i am also in Tampa and would be more than happy to help you out if you need any. You certainly sound like you already know a thing or two about proper paint care but if you'd like any assurance or confidence in jumping into the machine stages, let me know.

[herrubi]

To the OP, I'm in a similar situation as you. I have always taken excellent care of my vehicles, hand polishing and waxing, using a buffer with bonnets with fairly good results. I have recently decided to "upgrade" my system and equipment and bought a GG 6 kit. I have a 9 year old black suburban that is in excellent condition but needed some swirl removal. I have started on the roof until I get more comfortable with the DA Polisher and see what works for me. I'm still a bit nervous about going down to the the rest of the vehicle. I started with white pads and Megs UC and UP with pretty good results but I can still see some small scratches and want it better. My next step will be to try it with the orange pads which I need to order since they did not come with the kit that I purchased. I also clayed the roof first which I have never done in the past and could not believe how much that step alone improved the surface. I have really learned a lot from this forum and have been on here frequently as I get started with this new (to me) way of taking care of my vehicle. The offer for Puckman for assistance in the learning process would be fantastic. I would sure take advantage of that but unfortunately I'm up in Northeast Illinois. Have a good day all!

[tampatopless]

Thank you all for the excellent advice. Perhaps the biggest benefit is that the advice here gives me some confidence. My plan is to start on the Altima, which is 16 years old and actually needs to be repainted. I think using the Porter and working with different polishes and pads will help before I tackle the newer cars. Thank you very much.

[cardaddy]

Thanks, Tony! I just took screen shots of that post to keep in my reference compilation. :xyxthumbs:

To the op: The clay is almost a must before machine polishing on my opinion.

Thanks Don! :dblthumb2:

Sometimes..... well you know me, I get in the zone. :laughing:



I will also add that i am also in Tampa and would be more than happy to help you out if you need any. You certainly sound like you already know a thing or two about proper paint care but if you'd like any assurance or confidence in jumping into the machine stages, let me know.

THIS!!!!!

Dude, you should really take him up on this offer.

Honestly, it's very difficult (if not close to impossible) to do any real damage to your clear coat (on that new Mustang and that Honda) from working on it with a DA style buffer with foam pads. The state of the Nissan paint may make it a bit harder to work with, but even it should be able to be corrected to some degree (maybe massively better) without any harm. :dunno:

The trick is in getting used to the pads, machine speed, arm speed & pressure and how different pads and compounds respond. This is where having another fellow 'geek' around can turn what could be a frustrating day into a fantastic day. :)

[beamerstrumpet]

On your comment of "getting pads localally" you may have a good supplier around there,, HOWEVER I MUST STRESS THIS: DO NOT GO AND BUY THE HARBOR FREIGHT PADS. They are good for tile and household stuff,, but do not touch your car with them. their buffer is great after its modded but do not use the pads. order LC or whatever,, my personal favorite are Buff and Shine. if you pay overnight Ill bet T. Eric Allen at Autoality can help you out.

ONE MORE note: be awayer that LC/ MEgs and Buff and shine all have different color codes on their foam. A green B&S is not the same as a green LC. you can look up the levels on each web site.

[Ebg18t]

I am South of Tampa. I can lend a hand or let you try a product if you need something I have. Just shoot me a PM if you need help.