Obsolescence of detailing chemicals and other products

[sg.]

Hello,

I am new to detailing, and my work involves electronics -- and electronic products become obsolete very quickly. I am wondering about the rate of technological advances for detailing chemical and other products.

1) came across a forum post which indicated that the design of the Porter Cable 7424XP has remained unchanged for some years now and that its manufacturer has no plans to enhance this products despite requests for specific features. Would appreciate any insight into the manufacturer's reluctance to enhance their product.

2) has Meguiar's new Paint Protect - 365 Day Durability (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?62175-Paint-Protect-365-Day-Durability) made any other protection product obsolete, and if so, which ones? Some posters at the linked location asked if Paint Protect was a "me too" version of "HydrO2" -- and the announcer indicated that on the contrary Paint Protect might be superior to HydrO2 (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?62175-Paint-Protect-365-Day-Durability&p=555354&viewfull=1#post555354). But there are lots of comparable products including PBMG's Pinnacle Black Label Diamond Paint Sealant

Aside: Obsolescence happens when technology advances; and quite a few inventions come about when minds conceive of different combinations of known technologies. So why don't manufacturers provide more technical information about their wares? One can't compare products by just trying it out on a test surface -- one needs to have an understanding of the underlying product and its working: This quote of David Ghodoussi of Optimum Car Care's response to a question about the Klasse and Werkstatt sealants (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/26063-other-acrylic-sealant-brands.html#post322347) implies that it is important to take into account any long term impact of the chemical used -- a sealant that looks and works great for a few months might be silently corroding the underlying surface (and there are vendors such as Griot's who make it a point to say that their products are pH neutral).

[Kamakaz1961]

In the electronics industry things change fast! Agreed. As for Detailing products and equipment, not so much. I have a PC7424XP and had it a few years and still use it. Its purpose has changed as I use the Flex 3401 VRG for the major work. As for product that doesn't change as much either. They will still be affective a couple of years later.

Just pick a few products that you deem works best for you. Recently, there has been new DA's from Meguiar's and Torq, those new products are still not better than my Flex. Is it better than my PC7424 XP, probably. But no need to spend $$ for a slightly better machine than my PC.

You will be detailing more to keep your ride looking like the way you want it. That's the fun of it!!

[Moldavite]

that Meg 365 does sound interesting :)

[FUNX650]

Hello,

I am new to detailing, and my work involves electronics -- and electronic products become obsolete very quickly. I am wondering about the rate of technological advances for detailing chemical and other products.

1) came across a forum post which indicated that the design of the Porter Cable 7424XP has remained unchanged for some years now and that its manufacturer has no plans to enhance this products despite requests for specific features. Would appreciate any insight into the manufacturer's reluctance to enhance their product.

•The Porter Cable DA is what the other DAs (except for the "long throw") are based off of (copied).
•It hasn't received any really recent upgrades...but why should PC change the gold standard just for change sake?
-No need to fix what's not broken, IMHO.

-A rotary polisher is the tool for anyone seeking more robust paint correction.



2) has Meguiar's new Paint Protect - 365 Day Durability (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?62175-Paint-Protect-365-Day-Durability) made any other protection product obsolete, and if so, which ones? Some posters at the linked location asked if Paint Protect was a "me too" version of "HydrO2" -- and the announcer indicated that on the contrary Paint Protect might be superior to HydrO2 (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?62175-Paint-Protect-365-Day-Durability&p=555354&viewfull=1#post555354). But there are lots of comparable products including PBMG's Pinnacle Black Label Diamond Paint Sealant

•I personally don't believe this Meguiar's LSP has made any other paint protection product obsolete.
•I also did not find anywhere in the link you provided above that "the announcer" indicated that 365 Paint Protect might be superior to HydrO2.



Aside: Obsolescence happens when technology advances; and quite a few inventions come about when minds conceive of different combinations of known technologies. So why don't manufacturers provide more technical information about their wares? One can't compare products by just trying it out on a test surface -- one needs to have an understanding of the underlying product and its working: This quote of David Ghodoussi of Optimum Car Care's response to a question about the Klasse and Werkstatt sealants (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/26063-other-acrylic-sealant-brands.html#post322347) implies that it is important to take into account any long term impact of the chemical used -- a sealant that looks and works great for a few months might be silently corroding the underlying surface (and there are vendors such as Griot's who make it a point to say that their products are pH neutral).
•Right now:
Car-Care products are considered "Consumer Products",
and do not fall under the same deep scrutiny by the EPA, OSHA, and other Governmental agencies as, say those products that are labeled for Industrial and Professional usage.
-Meguiar's, for example, knows these rules will change---sooner or later---and at least supplies MSDSs either online or by request upon order-processing.
-Detailing forums and product reviews are often the only product metrics on which to rely...save trying them oneself on a test panel.

•Dr. G is most qualified to iterate the types of bonding, and cross-linking attributes of "acrylic-based" and "pre-polymer resins".
•Notes:
-I put the immediately above phrases in quotations due to what is often called: "Buzz Words". :)
-Dr. G forgot to mention if any of their paint protection products will etch...or otherwise "latch onto/into...a surface in order to bond, or not.
-Also:
Nowhere in the link you provided could I find where Dr.G alluded to, or even suggested that "acrylic-based" products will cause corrosion to an underlying surface.
Where did you find this out?

•Griot's Garage is not the only re-seller to provide product pH values. Many product-lines'/brands' manufacturers provide pH values as well.

And lest I forget:
:welcome: ...to AGO!!

Bob

[allenk4]

Here is a link to G's statement about Klasse being acidic and that it can etch the underlying paint

Acrylics vs. Polymer - Ask the Optimum Experts - Optimum Forum (http://optimumforums.org/index.php?showtopic=207)

Never heard of this phenomenon

Maybe it could if you left a huge pool of it on the paint for an extended period of time

I wonder how the word "can" is defined by the good folks at OPT?

You "can" get 1-2 microns of thickness with Opti-Coat 2.0

You "can" coat a panel with a few drops

You "can" coat an average sedan with 10ml

[allenk4]

Mike Stoops did not compare Hydro vs 365 (Paint Protect)

He was asked a question and indicated that they are not the same

365 is applied more like a sealant, except it does not require that it be buffed off

Hydro is sprayed on and blasted off with a jet from the hose

365 lasted 52 washes on test vehicles

Hydro lasts one to three months, based on reviews on this Forum

[PiPUK]

So why don't manufacturers provide more technical information about their wares?

There are a few reasons for this.

The most common reason is possibly that the 'manufacturers' do not have the information. The reality is that a lot of the companies you know are not actually manufacturers at all, rather they are brand owners who purchase chemicals from a more specialised manufacturer. This is not intended as a slight on these companies, just a reality check. The slight is upon some of those companies which tell blatant lies about this detail, but that is a discussion for elsewhere.

The other reason is probably that there is much less technical advance than being marketed. Many of the products which we are seeing are being transferred in from other sectors and then others are just making use of new materials being available to the bulk market. Contrary to popular belief, the brands with which you are familiar are simply not of the scale to be synthesizing advanced chemicals themselves. As above, many do not have the expertise to do the manufacturing themselves and the chemical synthesis side is at least two steps more advanced, in terms of the supply chain. What this all boils down to is the fact that technical information on the products is going to help others replicate the performance.

So really the story is that the marketing in the detailing sector outstrips the true technical advances thus too much information is likely to shed light on this matter which would have a negative influence on the market.

[Mike Phillips]

Hello,

I am new to detailing, and my work involves electronics -- and electronic products become obsolete very quickly. I am wondering about the rate of technological advances for detailing chemical and other products.



I've been following your posts since you joined this forum. Interesting so far, enough to cause me to watch for your posts.







1) came across a forum post which indicated that the design of the Porter Cable 7424XP has remained unchanged for some years now and that its manufacturer has no plans to enhance this products despite requests for specific features. Would appreciate any insight into the manufacturer's reluctance to enhance their product.



Insights?

Porter Cable probably sells millions of these tools as both wood sanders and paint polishers, if they're happy with their return on their product that's all that matters.

One thing for sure.... MILLIONS of cars have been de-swirled using the Porter Cable 7424XP and the XP is an updated version which was introduced in 2009. In context of how long this tool has been on the market as a wood sander this "is" the improved version.

People ask me all the time what my favorite tool is? Or if I could only pick one tool which tool would I pick?

I reply by saying I don't live in that world and thus don't limit myself to one tool or answering this type of hypothetical question.

Here's why I like the PC though... I use it to,

Machine sand - It's the only way to sand. It's faster to sand my machine. You leave more paint on the car. The sanding marks buff out faster as compared to sanding by hand. I would not tackle a wetsanding project without a PC. Just wouldn't do it.

Remove swirls - With the right products, pads and technique millions more cars will be de-swirled into the future. Heck I demonstrated how to use this tool in front of about 60+ people on what I consider not only a very rare car but also a very cool cars... a 1954 Hudson.

Here's the link....

Pictures: Dennis Gage at Autogeek's Cars & Coffee! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/cars-coffee/86721-pictures-dennis-gage-autogeek-s-cars-coffee.html)


Here's the car....
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=87199

Here are the people....

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=86911



Here's the swirls.... http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=87201

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=87202



Here's the before shot of the swirls on the hood.....

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=87216



Here's the AFTER shot for the section used for the demonstration.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=87217



And the above was performed using a Porter Cable 7424XP.



I also love to use this tool to machine wax. In fact, I've probably taught and converted more people to machine waxing using the Porter Cable 7424XP than anyone on earth. Just sayin....


Machine waxing a very beautiful 1954 Corvette....


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/928/1954Vette004.jpg


Applying Paste Wax By Machine
Souveran Paste Wax can be applied by hand or machine, I personally prefer to apply all my waxes and paint sealants by machine plus the owner Mike has never used a DA Polisher before, only rotary buffers, so I wanted to introduce him to one of the most popular types of machine polishers in the industry.


Using a microfiber glove to hold the wax, you can pop the wax out of the jar and then simply swipe the wax a few times across the face of the foam finishing pad and you're ready to machine wax. Sometimes it helps to lightly heat the outside of the plastic jar with a Hair Blow Dryer as this will loosen the grip crated by surface tension the wax has with the jar.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/928/1954Vette005.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/928/1954Vette006.jpg



Here's Mike the owner using a DA Polisher to machine wax his Corvette...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/928/1954Vette007.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/928/1954Vette008.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/928/1954Vette029.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/928/1954Vette030.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/928/1954Vette031.jpg



http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/928/1954Vette023.jpg






I'm also a HUGE fan of mechanically decontaminating paint using Nanoskin Pads on tools like the Porter Cable 7424XP

Video: How To use the Nanoskin Autoscrub Pads on a PC7424XP (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/57461-video-how-use-nanoskin-autoscrub-pads-pc7424xp.html)




How To use the Nanoskin Autoscrub Pads on a PC7424XP

How To use the Nanoskin Autoscrub Pads on a...






http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1590/Autoscrub001.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1590/Autoscrub005.jpg


The PC is a well-built tool and in the right hands can do amazing things.







Hello,

I am new to detailing, and my work involves electronics -- and electronic products become obsolete very quickly. I am wondering about the rate of technological advances for detailing chemical and other products.




We were all new at one time and it's great to "wonder" about the rate of technological advances.

I've seen more new technology introduced in the last 5-10 years than in my entire career in the detailing industry. Technology is being introduced so fast that a person must put some effort into keeping up with the pace and that's where this forum and our forum members come into play.

There are a lot of other tools on the market that will do things "like" the Porter Cable 7424XP will do but I don't see the PC going away and for some operations it's the first tool I grab, even today in the year 2014... almost 2015....


It's also one of the best, if not THE best tool to introduce people to machine polishing that have NEVER machine polished in their life.

Here's a great example in this thread I created from my last detailing boot camp class where at least have the people in this class had NEVER used a machine to to buff paint in their lives.


Porter Cable 7424 - Meguiar's G110v2 - Griot's DA Detailing Classes
(http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-saturday-detailing-101/85869-porter-cable-7424-meguiar-s-g110v2-griot-s-da-detailing-classes.html)
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=82241



And just to note, this last weekend at our Cars & Coffee with special guest Dennis Gage, this car was on display and I took this photo....


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=87254


The 3 trophies in this picture are awards this car has won after being polished out at my Detailing Boot Camp Class.

So while "yes" I do think there are some areas where the Porter Cable 7424XP can be improved at the same time... in the right hands, with quality products and good technique you can get award winning results even by complete newbies to machine polishing.

Now that's something....


Insights? The PC is a great tool. It's been around in the paint polishing world for over 25 years. Millions of cars have been de-swirled in the past and millions more will be de-swirled and maintained with this simple tool into the future.

I recommend everyone owning at least one.


On Autogeek.net
Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher (http://www.autogeek.net/porter-cable-7424xp.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1241/PorterCable7424XP2.jpg



How to Properly Use the Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher (http://www.autogeek.net/porter-cable-dvd.html)
Learn how to polish and protect your vehicle with the user-friendly Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher. Mike Phillips walks you through the essential steps to maintaining a smooth, glossy finish with this machine. The techniques you learn are transferable to many other 6 inch dual action polishers.

In this DVD, Mike discusses pad selection, polish application, how to make a section pass, and how to apply wax with your PC, plus many more tips developed through Mike's years of experience detailing cars.

Mike Phillips is our Director of Training at Autogeek. He teaches machine polishing classes here in the Autogeek Show Car Garage several times a year, where detailers learn the techniques you'll see in this video. Now you can bring Mike into your own garage with this DVD, "How to Properly Use the Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher."



http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1313/PorterCableDVD.jpg




:)

[Ck996tt]

I still use my original pc 7242. I have had it for 13 years and don't have any reasons to upgrade as It still removes 95% of swirls. What added features do the newer polishers have?

[Jaretr1]

I am not sure if anyone has noticed in regards to Meguiars Paint Protect...nothing in the description or claim of the product says anything about gloss or shine. Obviously not the intent or purpose of the product and it must fall short in that category for Meguiars to not even mention it on the bottle. Hydro2 not only protects, but also leaves a nice shine.

As far as Porter Cable making a new polisher. They makes dozens, maybe hundreds of power tools. Their market is not the auto detailer. They just happened to very successfully adapt an existing tool for a new use. It is probably not worth their investment to design a tool specifically for car polishing when there are other companies making tools just for that purpose.

But yes, technology keeps moving. I am sure Mike can comment on how the abrasive technology has changed and improved since he started in this industry. We might not be able to see or feel these changes with our hands, but the results of these changes can be seen after the products are used.

[allenk4]

The indication from Mike Stoops at Meguiar's is that the new 365 (Paint Protect) product provides less gloss than a product lime Ultimate Paste Wax

I saw it applied in person and thought the gloss was very good

Meguiar's also indicated that the gloss increases over several days after application

The product is basically targeted to enthusiasts who don't necessarily have time to wax once a month

[Audios S6]

The product is basically targeted to enthusiasts who don't necessarily have time to wax once a month

^^^^ oxymoron

I can think of several improvements.
1. long throw polishers
2. forced action polishers
3. iron targeting cleaners
4. coatings
5. sealants
6. sodium hydroxide ---> sodium metasilicate
7. surfactant cleaners - pretty much everything used to be sodium hydroxide based
8. WOWA sealants
9. Hydro2/Permanon - spray on spray off sealants
10. solid and liquid abrasive technology

Most are not necessarily new technology, but adapted technology similar to the PC being adapted from woodwork to detailing.

Things have changed a lot in the past 5 years.

[allenk4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk4 View Post
The product is basically targeted to enthusiasts who don't necessarily have time to wax once a month

^^^^ oxymoron


This oxymoron points out the paradox that seems to contradict itself....but, is valid


You can be enthusiastic about something, but not have time to turn your enthusiasm into results

I am enthusiastic about MMA, but have never seen the inside of an Octagon

[Audios S6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenk4 View Post

The product is basically targeted to enthusiasts who don't necessarily have time to wax once a month



^^^^ oxymoron





This oxymoron points out the paradox that seems to contradict itself....but, is valid






I agree completely. Plenty of things I wish I had more time for.

[Mike Moore]

Hello,

I am new to detailing, and my work involves electronics -- and electronic products become obsolete very quickly. I am wondering about the rate of technological advances for detailing chemical and other products.

1) came across a forum post which indicated that the design of the Porter Cable 7424XP has remained unchanged for some years now and that its manufacturer has no plans to enhance this products despite requests for specific features. Would appreciate any insight into the manufacturer's reluctance to enhance their product.

2) has Meguiar's new Paint Protect - 365 Day Durability (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?62175-Paint-Protect-365-Day-Durability) made any other protection product obsolete, and if so, which ones? Some posters at the linked location asked if Paint Protect was a "me too" version of "HydrO2" -- and the announcer indicated that on the contrary Paint Protect might be superior to HydrO2 (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?62175-Paint-Protect-365-Day-Durability&p=555354&viewfull=1#post555354). But there are lots of comparable products including PBMG's Pinnacle Black Label Diamond Paint Sealant

Aside: Obsolescence happens when technology advances; and quite a few inventions come about when minds conceive of different combinations of known technologies.

Here's my 2 Cents...http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc140/merlinhd03/Detail/2cents.jpg

1) The Dual Action (DA) polisher itself has been a tremendous boon for the detailing industry.
The DA free floating spindle assembly prevents the pad from spinning on dangerous paint areas.
These machines are "safe" and easy to use. I can teach someone to use a PC DA in about 10 minutes.
As mentioned above there are now multiple types of DA's - direct drive, 8mm, 15mm and 21mm throw etc.
Machine technology is based on polishing paint. The Porter Cable 7424xp is a basic, classic, simple DA machine.
On the other hand, pad and polish technologies for the DA have vastly improved with tons of revolutionary advances.

2) Meguiars is constantly improving their pads and polishes. IMHO Meguiars "weak spot" is their LSP products.
Meguiar's Paint Protect - 365 & Carpro's Hydro2 ARE totally different products in application, durability & "look".
As far as Last Step Products (LSP), there are THOUSANDS on the market from waxes, sealants and new coatings.
The LSP market is a constant leap frog. As Mike Phillips has stated many times..."Find what YOU like and use it often."

EPILOGUE:
As with any industry, consumers drive the market. Some of the new products are evolutionary & others are revolutionary.
I have seen quite a few new products introduced in the last few years that have greatly changed the auto detailing industry.
These new products allow the hobbyist to achieve results that in the past required a rotary polisher and years of experience.