Would Flex PE 14-2 & Rupes Duetto 12 be enough for my bussines

[ViGi]

DA - Rotary -Microfiber Cutting - Lightweight - Full Size, 21mm throw - Forced Rotation. Even with massive forum like autogeek it`s COMPLICATED. It is. Don`t need to hear that it`s not.

Started detailing bussines and for some 5 months I corrected a lot of cars with "I`m not pretty sure but it is FULL SIZE rotary" it`s not Makita, or dewalt, it dosn`t have any known name and in the beggining I made some small mistakes but they were some pretty thin pannels, or edges, it was maybe 20% my or rotary problem, then in the last months I think that I don`t have much of problems, I sometimes fly with that machine (not really I`m educated and I work in small panels), it`s very easy to control.

The problem.

I`m very interested in dual action machines, Rupes, Flex but only when I see how slow arm movments you need to do with them I say a big noo (I want quality, but most important is productivity). And then it doesn`t work very well in edges, you need to keep this way for spinnig, you need to keep flat, nooo I don`t have this kind of problems with my heavy dutty unknown rotary.

Ok I need quality, precision and after all I readed until now and because it need`s to be somehow quicker not slowly like DA`s, and because I masteret my havy dutty rotary, I wan`t a precision rotary which in this case is Flex PE 14, don`t know what the differences will be but my mind is in that one PRECISION, and I know from here that the best way is to have FULL SIZE and LIGHTWEIGHT ROTARY of course all for CORECTION STEP.

Then why Flex PE 14-2 & Rupes Duetto 12.

What I will offer in my bussines..? Correction and One Step Polishing

I`m not sure that even with Sonax Perfect Finish and Flex PE (for one step polishing) will be possible to finish hologram free, in the official video they describe that you will have hologram free finish which i dont belive. If this was possible I would not need Rupes 12. When I do Corrections I use FG 400 for correction and follow that with SF 4000, this way I`m sure that the finish is hologram free even with rotary. And for one step SF4000 many times it`s not enoght.

And to sum it up.

For Correction my havy duty rotary and FLEX PE, the test spot will give me the answer. Not to forget 3inch pads with FLEX PE.

For One Step polishing Duetto 12, I want duetto because I think is more comfortable specialy in vertical panels, I think I will manege it better. Anyway I will use just for polishing not correction.

Feed back please.

[WA.Detailer]

Not really sure how much real experience you have, but if you really want to take the time to practice, you can get really good with a Rotary and that will help you with your "productivity"..

Please note that it is Not the product or the Machine that causes any problems in paint as much as it is the Operator of the Machine..

What Rotary speed/s are you using ? What pads ? Are you keeping the pad moist when using it ?

I dont know what you are working on, but I rarely ever use something as aggressive as Menzerna Fast Gloss 400..

I bought a Flex PE-14-250 Rotary when they first came out almost 10 years ago for my Shop and found it nice but light and it cant stand to have much pressure put on it like a big Makita or Dewalt can...

So, this Flex sits in my Cabinet and the Makita gets all the work..

Vertical panels for most part, should always be easier unless severely scratched, etc., but I would still use the Rotary if you already started using it on the Horizontal panels..

Good luck !
Dan F

[Eric@CherryOnTop]

I use the pe14 for my rotary work and find it to be plenty competent and perfectly easy to use due to its light weight and ergonomics.

I also own a flex 3401 and Rupes 15. I do prefer the flex over the rupes. Problems like you describe on curved panels are not an issue for the flex since it is forced rotation. However, with the "washer mod" the Rupes frees up a lot of working ability. Either way, I think you have good options if you're looking to detail for money.


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[ViGi]

Mostly neglected cars, sometimes even FG 400 is not as much aggressive as I want to be, I can`t tell you about the speed because my rotary is unknown even for google, I mostly work on low speeds.

The machine start at 16 and when I start spreading the product I must immediately go down to 10 which is minimal speed, I do one quick pass to spread the product and then go to 13 which is ideal speed with this machine, I have tried to work with 16 but the paint gets hot quicly, never tried 19, 21 or higher, no sense when it gets hot even with 16, but with 13 I can work as much as I want, I may add a litle pressure when needed, paint gets hot even when I applay pressure. My first passes are with pressure and I finish it up without pressure.

[ViGi]

I use the pe14 for my rotary work and find it to be plenty competent and perfectly easy to use due to its light weight and ergonomics.

I also own a flex 3401 and Rupes 15. I do prefer the flex over the rupes. Problems like you describe on curved panels are not an issue for the flex since it is forced rotation. However, with the "washer mod" the Rupes frees up a lot of working ability. Either way, I think you have good options if you're looking to detail for money.


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Before 3/4 months Flex 3401 was my option but then I found complicated with Changeable Backing Plate System I can`t order it from autogeek shipping is very high, don`t know if I can find somewhere in germany, then some complained about Changeable Backing Plate System which if i have problem I can`t order again, and agian.

I don`t know which pads work best with 3401, for cutting i heard Optimum Microfiber are good.

Then I changed my mind for rupes, but i thing for my productivity job, or very neglected car I will need to work more time to have good results.

Can I have good cutting results with Flex 3401, and can I do it quicker, by quicer I meen to cut neglectet car for 5/6 hours, anyway I am not interested cutting neglected paint for 2 hours, I want to do quality job, but as fast as I can.

Then what problems I may have with Flex 3401, what I can`t do with 3401, do I need another machine, Anyway I will have my havy dutty rotary with me, meybe with that I can use 3inch Spot Pads, or I may get then new flex PE8 for places which I can`t do with flex 3401.

[ViGi]

Here are some result that I get with my rotary, the first 4/5 months detailing cars, but anyway very educated detailer from autogeek, even with rotary I worked 2 days on this car, I did some spot sanding to remove those scraches, the car was never polished and decidet on hand sanding with 2000 only on scraches. But I know if I have another good machine I can do this job more funn, because I don`t know what kind of machine is sometimes is difficult to adress some problems, in some harder paints I worked very hard and could not get good results, in this cases I always think that the problem is with machine, if I have problems with 3401, PE 14 I know how to ask about problems, a lot of people use this machines, I can get help from others, but with this machine NO.


https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1796599_752432988179775_1737823286099274482_n.jpg? oh=2e832623562c93f4b8b98ce0aa3677e7&oe=54D4F8B1

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10395826_752432938179780_5153681556251335803_n.jpg ?oh=e41adc6e4ee6ebbc720ff1f2b447558e&oe=55182529&__gda__=1427459744_28091a47bc00deec3b71e8ad3d806c5 c

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10636310_752432871513120_3594221725001006053_n.jpg ?oh=88e6858439f27497103d5740b3ffce03&oe=54E6A6F2&__gda__=1424174147_8fe6925aac8b5d5f376e2698294bfe3 0

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1002689_752432851513122_86265325971051203_n.jpg?oh =560715f142d1784c08e9291868bc77e4&oe=551C8D06

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10806488_752432921513115_4160575929456390684_n.jpg ?oh=3c0159bf63744eaf350bc16b62a0bcfe&oe=54ECB355

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[WA.Detailer]

ViGi -

Again, I promise you that the machine is not causing the problems as much as the operator of the machine is causing the problems..

Of all the machines you have, if I were to pick one to use to correct fastest, it would have to be the Rotary because it is forced rotation direct drive.

If you want to make it more versatile, you could get a spacer for it, so the body of it is farther away from the work, and then easily use 2", 3", 4" backing plates and pads..

With that spacer depending on how long it is, it will require a little time to get used to how the dynamics of the pad now is when the machine is farther away. It is not hard to get used to this.. I do it all the time..

You speak of Production work and that is fine, but please know that you can only get faster at this if you either spend more time getting better at it, or start cutting corners like using the top half of the pad to quickly speed down a panel, leaving lots of nice swirls and holograms in the paint..

So, which of these results are you wanting to achieve?

The pics above show some really nice work - how did they look in the direct sun ? No swirls, holograms, etc ? Then you got it right..

If you desire to get faster, then you need to keep practicing, thinking the entire time you are working, on the progress being made, what can you do to speed up the process without sacrificing quality, what have you not tried that may work better, etc..

Innovation will always be needed to ever move forward with this craft.
Or one can be perfectly happy and satisfied to stay at one level or place..

A really great, perfect, not a speck of dirt inside the vehicle, every square inch of the interior - every square inch - looked at, all dirt removed, every surface cleaned, steamed, extracted, conditioned, etc., and then the same for the entire engine, engine compartment, under the hood, cowl, everything, and then the entire trunk area, under the cover, spare removed, air pressure checked and adjusted, all jambs perfectly cleaned, then the entire paintwork, lights, grille, wheels, inside the wheels, fenderwells, tailpipes, everything, including a quality paint cleaning, compounding and or polishing, LSP applied, glass perfect, takes me around 20 hours working alone..

The Client's reaction each time ? "That is NOT my car !!! And it Always is... :)

Can it be done faster ? Perhaps, but I dont want to cut corners, and I will not compromise my very high level of work ethic either..

Im of the opinion that the only way to speed this process up if the business model is to be a Production Shop vs a Custom Detail Shop, is to then hire more bodies that are equally experienced and share the same work ethic, to help move the vehicles out faster..

The number of hours may or may not change that much, but the cars will go out the door faster, if this is your long term goal..
Good luck with this !
Dan F

[ViGi]

Again, I promise you that the machine is not causing the problems as much as the operator of the machine is causing the problems..

Ok I know I learned a litle to work with this machine but again somehow I want one or 2 other good machines, but don`t want to make mistake.



Of all the machines you have, if I were to pick one to use to correct fastest, it would have to be the Rotary because it is forced rotation direct drive.

I can`t go away from PE14-2, I will need for sure one, than maybe plus one DA to see for my self what, where works best.



If you want to make it more versatile, you could get a spacer for it, so the body of it is farther away from the work, and then easily use 2", 3", 4" backing plates and pads..


Can you help me here, I will need 2", 3" backing plates for rotary, what you found works best. I decidet for 3m 125mm backing plate, but didn`t search alot for 2", 3" backing plates and pads.




You speak of Production work and that is fine, but please know that you can only get faster at this if you either spend more time getting better at it, or start cutting corners like using the top half of the pad to quickly speed down a panel, leaving lots of nice swirls and holograms in the paint..

So, which of these results are you wanting to achieve? [/QUOTE]


Not Show Room Finish, I work with daily driver cars, and mostly they are neglected, never polished or never polished the right way, so maybe 7 quality / 10 speed, when someone ask for maximum quality I will do it, I will take time to do it right, but only 5% of my consumers may ask for this.



The pics above show some really nice work - how did they look in the direct sun ? No swirls, holograms, etc ? Then you got it right..




Again 7 from 10, no holograms, I refined with SF4000, and then sealed with Menzerna Power Protect no way to have holograms after this.

A really great, perfect, not a speck of dirt inside the vehicle, every square inch of the interior - every square inch - looked at, all dirt removed, every surface cleaned, steamed, extracted, conditioned, etc., and then the same for the entire engine, engine compartment, under the hood, cowl, everything, and then the entire trunk area, under the cover, spare removed, air pressure checked and adjusted, all jambs perfectly cleaned, then the entire paintwork, lights, grille, wheels, inside the wheels, fenderwells, tailpipes, everything, including a quality paint cleaning, compounding and or polishing, LSP applied, glass perfect, takes me around 20 hours working alone..

The Client's reaction each time ? "That is NOT my car !!! And it Always is... :)

I do 80% of this, but it takes me a very long time to do it, I always want to do it perfect, after 5 months now I can do a lot of works quicer but with same quality, and I know I will do them more quicker in the years to come, but quality is always in my mind, I would never sacrifice quality for speed.



Im of the opinion that the only way to speed this process up if the business model is to be a Production Shop vs a Custom Detail Shop, is to then hire more bodies that are equally experienced and share the same work ethic, to help move the vehicles out faster..

The number of hours may or may not change that much, but the cars will go out the door faster, if this is your long term goal..
Good luck with this !


Maybe in the future but If i do this, people that I will hire must do the work in my standarst, the must do it right, Quality Everytime.

I know here in my country some people polish cars for the same price like I ask and they do that for 2 hours, I need 10 hours, I use premium product, I see like an exterir job not the paint polishing, I do clean wheels, engine, door jams, I seal the paint after polishing. They just polish the car for 2 hours, I don`t call that polishing, they just apply polish like wax On and OF, they make money, but I would never do that kind of job, I do it with passion, I`m happy with the finish, I have just small porfits, again I`m happy only with that profit, it`s enught.

Thanks for taking time to read and answer my questions.

[WA.Detailer]

ViGi -

I have had a Flex 3401-VRG since it first came out, almost 10 years ago.
It is a great machine, rotates counter-clockwise (to the left), so you have to get used to that, and is pretty good at correcting but will never be able to do what a direct drive Rotary can do in experienced hands..

If you are saying that you want less perfect correction but faster, then perhaps this might work and have the advantage of still being random orbital as well.. It might just take longer, depending on so many variables, or even less time, again depending on so many variables..
They do make a backing plate for a 4" pad I believe, which should be nice, but if it puts the machine too close to the work, then that is why I suggested getting a metal spacer for your Rotary..

You can find really good backing plates the yellow ones and the spacer for your Rotary here - Lake Country Buffing Pads, Polishing buffing pads, buffing pads, polishing pads, ccs foam pads, ccs polishing pads (http://www.autogeek.net/lakecountry.html)

And all the size pads spoken of are here as well..
I only use Flat Pads because I want all of the pad working all of the time, with no monkeying around with craters, holes, etc... I dont need that stuff..

Im glad that you have very high standards for your work and that you care enough about it to want to make it right..

Please know this - unless you are Detailing very high end cars for a living and do absolutely perfect work that would be required to have that level of Clientele, there is not a lot of money to be made at this craft Unless - you have a huge volume of cars every year..

Im speaking of well over 100 vehicles a year and perhaps you might make a little profit after you pay for all your supplies, washing them, cleaning them, replacing them, cost of water and electrical, and then we have not even talked about what your Time is worth...

Get out the calculator and run some numbers if you really want to get serious about making any kind of a living at this, ok ?

It is not easy, and is seriously hard work if you do this almost every day for years...
But it Will get you in tremendous shape ! :)

Try to find a balance that will work for you - 5 months you have is not nearly enough time to give you a baseline.. A good year with more than 100 vehicles should tell you if this is going to work or not...

Good luck, ViGi !
Dan F

[ViGi]

ViGi -

I have had a Flex 3401-VRG since it first came out, almost 10 years ago.
It is a great machine, rotates counter-clockwise (to the left), so you have to get used to that, and is pretty good at correcting but will never be able to do what a direct drive Rotary can do in experienced hands..

If you are saying that you want less perfect correction but faster, then perhaps this might work and have the advantage of still being random orbital as well.. It might just take longer, depending on so many variables, or even less time, again depending on so many variables..
They do make a backing plate for a 4" pad I believe, which should be nice, but if it puts the machine too close to the work, then that is why I suggested getting a metal spacer for your Rotary..

You can find really good backing plates the yellow ones and the spacer for your Rotary here - Lake Country Buffing Pads, Polishing buffing pads, buffing pads, polishing pads, ccs foam pads, ccs polishing pads (http://www.autogeek.net/lakecountry.html)

And all the size pads spoken of are here as well..
I only use Flat Pads because I want all of the pad working all of the time, with no monkeying around with craters, holes, etc... I dont need that stuff..

Im glad that you have very high standards for your work and that you care enough about it to want to make it right..

Please know this - unless you are Detailing very high end cars for a living and do absolutely perfect work that would be required to have that level of Clientele, there is not a lot of money to be made at this craft Unless - you have a huge volume of cars every year..

Im speaking of well over 100 vehicles a year and perhaps you might make a little profit after you pay for all your supplies, washing them, cleaning them, replacing them, cost of water and electrical, and then we have not even talked about what your Time is worth...

Get out the calculator and run some numbers if you really want to get serious about making any kind of a living at this, ok ?

It is not easy, and is seriously hard work if you do this almost every day for years...
But it Will get you in tremendous shape ! :)

Try to find a balance that will work for you - 5 months you have is not nearly enough time to give you a baseline.. A good year with more than 100 vehicles should tell you if this is going to work or not...

Good luck, ViGi !
Dan F


Thanks very much Dan F I learn 100 times and than I ask one time for something where I think I know but want to be confirmed, I was sure that I need rotary, and still I know that to have PE14 it dosn`t makes nothing wrong, I will be in this bussines in a long run, and I will have even more machines, I can`t stick just to one, I see that DA in this days are very strong I will have some of them for sure, I see that I must try some of them and to see which one fits best for job that I`m going to use, I cant get all of them for now, but I may chose one for the next season, and what I learned from you is that as for rotary for now I have one and can belive in that, but in most cases I will do one step polishing with medium polishes Like Menzerna PF2500 or Sonax Perfect Finish, and I know that this one step I can`t do with rotary, I tested with PF 2500 and I can`t finish dark colored paint without holograms, so here comes the speed, I need dual action for One Steps, and for correction for now I will work with the rotary that I have.

Most times I think that I`m correct with some decisions but after some time I see that it wasn`t right that desicion, but this time is 100% that I need one DA for one Steps, and kepping this rotary that I have for correction, Of course I will test correction with the DA that I will chose Flex or Rupes, but for my bussines I think that for some years rotary will be the first option for correcting.

Thanks Dan F.

[Loach]

Let me just answer the original question. Yes, the Duetto and PE14 will do everything you would ever desire to do on a vehicle as far as paint reconditioning goes, in my opinion. You've got the 4 bases down: sanding, compounding, polishing, waxing/sealing. You correct with the PE14, and you polish with the Duetto, and your hands will thank you because you can't get much smoother than those two tools. It's a bit of an investment though. The PE14 is at the top of the price range as far as rotary buffers go. The Duetto is close to the top, but it's really a smooth polisher that can double as a nice sander, the extra 4mm of throw is very effective, and to a lot of people those extra features are worth the extra price. Do precision work with the PE14 using a 3" backing plate and you're good to go. You can also do effective correction work with the Duetto, its action allows it to finish out excellent with 1 step products without buffer trails. There are a lot of tools out there to choose from, but a rotary combined with the Duetto is a great combination that is going to get the job done.

[Garyhw48]

Mostly neglected cars, sometimes even FG 400 is not as much aggressive as I want to be, I can`t tell you about the speed because my rotary is unknown even for google, I mostly work on low speeds.

The machine start at 16 and when I start spreading the product I must immediately go down to 10 which is minimal speed, I do one quick pass to spread the product and then go to 13 which is ideal speed with this machine, I have tried to work with 16 but the paint gets hot quicly, never tried 19, 21 or higher, no sense when it gets hot even with 16, but with 13 I can work as much as I want, I may add a litle pressure when needed, paint gets hot even when I applay pressure. My first passes are with pressure and I finish it up without pressure.

Is it possible for you to post pictures of your rotary buffer and the pads that you are using. If we had more information on these we can probably help you more.

If you get a DA you probably do want the Flex and the backing plates that come with the machine are fine. The others are nice but are not something that you have to get.

The Flex 3401 is a great machine but it is not going to correct as fast as a rotary. The problem with rotaries is holograms which is not a problem with the Flex.

When you said that this is complicated you were right. There is so much out there it is hard to decide what to buy. Again some pictures of what you are using will help us help you.

[ViGi]

Let me just answer the original question. Yes, the Duetto and PE14 will do everything you would ever desire to do on a vehicle as far as paint reconditioning goes, in my opinion. You've got the 4 bases down: sanding, compounding, polishing, waxing/sealing. You correct with the PE14, and you polish with the Duetto, and your hands will thank you because you can't get much smoother than those two tools. It's a bit of an investment though. The PE14 is at the top of the price range as far as rotary buffers go. The Duetto is close to the top, but it's really a smooth polisher that can double as a nice sander, the extra 4mm of throw is very effective, and to a lot of people those extra features are worth the extra price. Do precision work with the PE14 using a 3" backing plate and you're good to go. You can also do effective correction work with the Duetto, its action allows it to finish out excellent with 1 step products without buffer trails. There are a lot of tools out there to choose from, but a rotary combined with the Duetto is a great combination that is going to get the job done.


Very helpful answer, thanks for your time.

[ViGi]

Is it possible for you to post pictures of your rotary buffer and the pads that you are using. If we had more information on these we can probably help you more.

If you get a DA you probably do want the Flex and the backing plates that come with the machine are fine. The others are nice but are not something that you have to get.

The Flex 3401 is a great machine but it is not going to correct as fast as a rotary. The problem with rotaries is holograms which is not a problem with the Flex.

When you said that this is complicated you were right. There is so much out there it is hard to decide what to buy. Again some pictures of what you are using will help us help you.


Because "for now" I see that anyway I will use Rotary for correction, then just for one step polishing Rupes may be the best option. Ok I will post a photo of my Rotary machine.