Plastx left super-fine swirls... now what?

[Ike21]

So, I went to polish some minor scratching out of the headlights and tail-lamps on a fairly new Accord with Plastx before coating with PBL DSC, and noticed that I had traded the light scratches for fine swirls, visible only with lights on/ intense external illumination:

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b541/ncwookieherder/car%20detailing/8A47D971-4CA4-4BAF-B8E3-F7B6E647C788_zpsqafo9brt.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ncwookieherder/media/car%20detailing/8A47D971-4CA4-4BAF-B8E3-F7B6E647C788_zpsqafo9brt.jpg.html)

However, the lights look just fine under normal lighting, and without viewing the headlamps head-on... with perhaps a slight haze visible:

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b541/ncwookieherder/car%20detailing/ACB6DC0D-2350-40E4-BAB3-2FD91A2B31E1_zpszxb9p2xt.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ncwookieherder/media/car%20detailing/ACB6DC0D-2350-40E4-BAB3-2FD91A2B31E1_zpszxb9p2xt.jpg.html)

Not so bad really... but I would like to achieve a finer finish before "locking" it in for a year or two by coating.

Now, I can't recall if this is normal for plastx or not. I'm fairly sure I'm just using it improperly... but if there's a better product out there on the market for super-fine finishing, I'm all ears. I do have some M205, UP, and M9 on hand, with a sample of WG TSR 3 arriving tomorrow.

To give you an idea of my method:
I used both the new formulation ("faster" acting... I'm guessing coarser compound), and an older formulation, circa 2009. The older formulation left noticeably finer swirls behind.

I hand applied both, using a new pinnacle foam applicator for the new formula, and a lightly used misc. foam applicator for the older formula. I primed the pad with product (generously and completely spread around), and applied a generous amount to the pad. Working the front section of the headlamp (approximately 5"x10"), I made about 4 single passes with firm pressure, before reducing to a light pressure for 2 to 4 final single passes. The remaining product was just beginning to "disappear" if you will... drying and blending into the headlamp plastic. I immediately removed the remainder, using a spray of Meg's ID, and a Cobra 530 microfiber.

Now, looking at the bottle... it doesn't indicate any diminishing abrasive action, but perhaps this is the case, as the polish uses good ol' aluminum oxide abrasive suspended in hydrocarbons (I'm assuming some plasticizer and protectants are added-in).

Did I just not work the polish long enough for a diminishing action to kick-in? If not, what am I doing wrong? I don't have access to a DA polisher, however I'm thinking of investing in a Flex soon, if it would help. Also, would any other products be useful with hand application?

Thanks in advance!
Mike

[allenk4]

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/26612-how-use-hand-applied-abrasive-polish-paint-cleaner-hand.html?highlight=hand

[swanicyouth]

IME Plastic X just sucks. Sorry to those that may be offended. But, polishing clear plastic by hand with any abrasive polish will prove challenging to reveal perfect results.

IME get yourself a DA, some 3" foam pads, and Optimum Polish II + Finish Polish.

[MarkD51]

Yes, I'd try following with Meg's 205 since you have it on hand. Try a couple of light applications, almost like you're only applying a wax.
That should get it.
Mark

[Mike Phillips]

I hand applied both,
Mike




That's the limit of your hand.

For decades I've been teaching that you ALWAYS get better results when you work by hand and finish out anything using a foam pad.


You're aiming for perfection... nothing wrong with that I'm like that too... you're just using something (a hand) that cannot compete with a machine. Considering you're working by hand you did pretty good.

Take any machine with a foam polishing pad and the same product, the PlastX or a fine cut quality paint polish and re-polish the plastic and you'll get as close to perfect as possible.

You can quote me on this....

"The machine will always produce better results than the human hand" -Mike Phillips







IME Plastic X just sucks. Sorry to those that may be offended. But, polishing clear plastic by hand with any abrasive polish will prove challenging to reveal perfect results.



Actually, I've been using PlastX since Meguiar's introduced it. IN fact, I was working at Meguiar's as the "Corporate Writer" when it was introduced and wrote both the front and back label copy for this product. (it's since then been updated by who knows?)

I've used it to perform absolute MIRACLES to severely neglected plastic windows, both rigid and flexible.

It's one of the few, if not the ONLY plastic polishes on the market that you can use by machine on flexible clear plastic windows to machine remove scratches and restore absolute clarity.

While I did not do this work, I taught the boat owner to do it.... (I already know how)


How to wetsand, cut and buff a gel-coat boat (http://www.marine31online.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147)




Eric & Gary
The Eisenglass, (flexible plastic windows), was very cloudy and scuffed when this boat arrived so I put the owner Eric and his buddy to work machine polishing the plastic to restore clarity.

http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/523/How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_067.jpg

http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/523/How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_068.jpg

http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/523/How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_069.jpg

http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/523/How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_070.jpg


You talking to me pal?

http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/523/How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_071.jpg

http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/523/How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_072.jpg



http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/523/How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_093.jpg

http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/523/How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_094.jpg

http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/523/How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_095.jpg



I don't know of any other "dedicated plastic polish" that will actually remove scratches when machine applied to clear plastic windows without leaving its own scratch pattern behind at the same time.

I was told PlastX uses a very unique and rare abrasive found in or at least only available in one country.


I'm not trying to discount your experiences with the product but this product has never let me down on clear plastics with the exception of Lexan and to this date I've enver found any product that will take scratched Lexan and restore it to perfection which is what most people expect. You can improve really bad Lexan but I've never seen a product from any company that will restore absolute clarity and perfection once Lexan is scratched.





IME get yourself a DA, some 3" foam pads, and Optimum Polish II + Finish Polish.



I do agree that the above will also work as Dr. G makes great products. Menzerna and Sonax polishes also work really well on clear plastics.


:)

[swanicyouth]

^ Mike, you know better than me. But, for whatever reason, none of the Meg's plastic polishes work well for me. I even bought all 3 from the MG line - no luck.

[Mike Phillips]

^ Mike, you know better than me. But, for whatever reason, none of the Meg's plastic polishes work well for me. I even bought all 3 from the MG line - no luck.

The M10 and the M17 are very different from PlastX. M10 is a maintenance polish kind of like a wax is to car paint and M17 is a light chemical cleaning polish for removing topical staining, impurities and light oxidation.

I have bottles of all 4 of the Meguiar's plastic products on my desk as they are included in a new book I'm writing and one thing I noticed is the formula for M10 has been dramatically changed. The old M10 was a very highly spun pure polishing oil and very unique in the world of polishes and the new product is nothing like it.

If anyone reading this is a fan or user of the old M10 then I'd say find some and get some quick. I'm not saying the new version doesn't work as I'm sure it does but the old version was very unique, something you would have to use to understand.

I've met many a people in my life that used M10 on lacquer furniture and things like pianos for the clear, wet look as it was a non-drying oil. Kind of a translucent white color.

:)

[Ike21]

Wow, thanks so much for the detailed response and insider information Mike! I am always impressed by the thoroughness of your posts and articles. As a scientist by trade, I always appreciate it when someone delves into the "how and why" of a particular subject. Keep up the great work!


You're aiming for perfection... nothing wrong with that I'm like that too... you're just using something (a hand) that cannot compete with a machine. Considering you're working by hand you did pretty good.

Take any machine with a foam polishing pad and the same product, the PlastX or a fine cut quality paint polish and re-polish the plastic and you'll get as close to perfect as possible.

-Mike P.


And thanks for the encouragement! I have read many of your posts, including the ones about man vs. machine, and have been considering "taking the plunge" if you will, by investing in a proper machine kit. The headlight example is just more fuel to the fire on that front. I'm considering the Flex 3401, since I used to use a proper rotary back in the day, but am afraid to break it out again after 7 or 8 years out of practice. We all know at least one horror story of a misused rotary!


IME get yourself a DA, some 3" foam pads, and Optimum Polish II + Finish Polish.

-swanicyouth


Sounds like a good call on the 3" DA system... that would be an ideal size. I wish my wallet could allow me to invest in a DA that adapted down to 3" in addition to the Flex.

Not to change the topic of the thread too much... but I do have some questions about a possible setup for this purpose:

Would the 4" backing pad adapter on a Flex be an option for safely buffing these headlamps? I assume you'd want to use a larger pad, like 5" or 5.5" with a 4" plate, correct?

The headlamp face is around 5 1/4" high, with unlimited clearance on top, but an angled painted front fascia lip on the bottom that the polisher could nick. In the end, the polisher would have to be used with about 1" or so of pad above the top of the headlamp to allow for its 5/16" working stroke length. Would the forced action of the flex cause it to walk unpredictably without full pad contact?

Also, would a collision with a Flex backing plate cause the plastic bumper to crack? I'm thinking a layer of burned 3m auto tape covered with a layer or two of thick duck tape (such as gorilla tape) could be enough armor to prevent any bumper mishaps... but experience would be the best teacher on this!

I appreciate all the responses so far, you've all been a great help!:xyxthumbs:

[allenk4]

4" pads are fine for this

A DA will accept a 2 7/8" backing plate for a 3" pad. Works great!

EDIT: Misread your last post

[Ike21]

Hello again!

It's been a bit since I first started this topic, and since then, was able to significantly reduce the severity/depth of the abrasive scratching by machine polishing with PlastX (mind you, the 2nd oldest formulation I had on hand... the newest formulation still gave coarser results). :xyxthumbs:

Also, the complete detail came out quite nicely! I topped virtually everything with a coating of Pinnacle Black Label DSC, including the head and tail lamps. What an excellent (and surprising) product. I'll have to post a full review from the perspective of a first time coating user once I get a chance to take some decent photos.

I did take a few snapshots of the final results, after the lamps were polished and coated:

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b541/ncwookieherder/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/919816E3-B921-479E-B1BA-3B0DA1AF2316_zpswrb3wxrh.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ncwookieherder/media/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/919816E3-B921-479E-B1BA-3B0DA1AF2316_zpswrb3wxrh.jpg.html)
Distance Shot


http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b541/ncwookieherder/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/3CB7A49F-5F68-4A64-93C8-9DBBA809F2A3_zpsqquszcf5.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ncwookieherder/media/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/3CB7A49F-5F68-4A64-93C8-9DBBA809F2A3_zpsqquszcf5.jpg.html)
Lights on

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b541/ncwookieherder/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/23536F5F-1DE3-4215-9915-ABD25943D34C_zpsdavdbu74.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ncwookieherder/media/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/23536F5F-1DE3-4215-9915-ABD25943D34C_zpsdavdbu74.jpg.html)
Looking at the low beam projector, focused on the outer lens/cover... I would imagine this would be the most scrutiny most people would ever give the headlamp. No apparent scratching!

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b541/ncwookieherder/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/CB5BC4FD-2F6D-422B-BE84-3AF77682A4A9_zps9pucdeix.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ncwookieherder/media/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/CB5BC4FD-2F6D-422B-BE84-3AF77682A4A9_zps9pucdeix.jpg.html)
As in the before pictures, a bright spot viewed as close to "perpendicular" to the lamp's flat front surface as possible (just as with spot swirl finding on paint) shows some polishing scratches left behind, but they're far shallower than with hand polishing. Good stuff!



Actually, I've been using PlastX since Meguiar's introduced it. IN fact, I was working at Meguiar's as the "Corporate Writer" when it was introduced and wrote both the front and back label copy for this product. (it's since then been updated by who knows?)

-Mike P.

Mike, you'll appreciate this... after some organizing the other day, I uncovered the first bottle of PlastX I'd ever purchased, from back in 2003... Hopefully brings back some good memories!

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b541/ncwookieherder/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/ED1E22C2-D09A-4E22-B490-71FF9B9685D5_zpsrjb1odcw.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ncwookieherder/media/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/ED1E22C2-D09A-4E22-B490-71FF9B9685D5_zpsrjb1odcw.jpg.html)
The lineup, L to R: 2003, 2008-2010(?), 2013


http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b541/ncwookieherder/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/3A688717-073E-4C36-B166-B66B6540219A_zpspraqq5cl.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/ncwookieherder/media/Headlamps%20and%20Plastx/3A688717-073E-4C36-B166-B66B6540219A_zpspraqq5cl.jpg.html)
Definitely has changed!


Thanks for the help!

[The Guz]

Nice job. They came out great.

[Ike21]

Nice job. They came out great.

Thanks!

Guess I just forgot just how much of a difference machines make in the end.

If you want, head over to this new thread I posted to see the finished product and the entire car:

Review: A Newbie's Perspective on Pinnacle Black Label DSC (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews/86042-review-newbie-s-perspective-pinnacle-black-label-dsc.html#post1177313)

[Hoytman]

Actually, I've been using PlastX since Meguiar's introduced it. IN fact, I was working at Meguiar's as the "Corporate Writer" when it was introduced and wrote both the front and back label copy for this product. (it's since then been updated by who knows?)

I've used it to perform absolute MIRACLES to severely neglected plastic windows, both rigid and flexible.

It's one of the few, if not the ONLY plastic polishes on the market that you can use by machine on flexible clear plastic windows to machine remove scratches and restore absolute clarity.

http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/523/How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_068.jpg

http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/523/How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_069.jpg

:)

Thanks, Mike...you answered the last part of my question.


What product(s) did you use on the pads?

EDIT:

Hmmnnnn....
It appears that when you click on the little red box that it takes you to the wrong place in 2006 on this forum; when, actually, the question came from the marine31 forum. I tried to quote, copy, and then paste the question from that forum, but it didn't work for some reason.

Regardless, you answered my question.