Trouble with S2000 Paint Correction and Meg's M205

[jaxtalonturbo]

I'm trying to correct some issues on a friend's 2005 Rio Yellow S2000. The car was resprayed a year or so back, and aside from some orange peel that was left behind, the owner has typical light swirls in the finish. I'm not sure how much clear there is to work with, but I was aiming for elimination of 90-95% of the light swirling and at least 50-60% of the orange peel in some of the heavier areas (this particular car has noticeable peel in the hood and doors).

After thorough wash and decontamination, I decided to see if I could get some of the lighter orange peel out of the trunk lid by dampsanding with 3000 grit. It did help knock it down a little bit, but I decided to wait until my CarPro denim pads arrive, and just correct the swirling on this panel.

After the sanding, I used a PC7424 with a MF cutting pad and Meg's D300, followed by a black hex logic pad with M205.

And here is where my problem begins: For one, what the hell is the consistency and work time supposed to be for this stuff? I shook the bottle up plenty, but it comes out of the bottle with the consistency of dairy half and half, which makes it tough to apply and keep on the pad. Furthermore, I can't get it to work more than 15-30 seconds without it drying up completely on me and leaving the clear riddled with micro-marring and dried product on the surface which is impossible to remove unless I work it off with more product.

As far as the work time goes, some people are claiming this stuff has a long work time, and in other places I'm reading that you can only do about 4 passes in a 2x2 area at approximately 30-40 seconds before the product is leaving imperfections rather than taking them out. Is this true?

Did I get a bad batch of the stuff?

Until I get the answer to this, my denim pads arrive tomorrow, and I'm thinking of moving on to the following alternative correction method for the rest of the car:


Carpro Denim pad with M105 (on heavy orange peel areas)
Microfiber cutting pad/ D300
Microfiber finishing pad/ D301
CG Blacklight/V7

Ideas? Insight? Opinions? Thanks in advance.

[HD.Detailing]

shake 205 for a little while, good rule of thumb with this is work for 30 seconds then wipe off.

hope this helps

[Matt@Revive]

M105/205 dry really fast during the AZ summer. i usually do a quick section pass and then lightly mist the pad and section with water to help lengthen the working time.

[HUMP DIESEL]

I used some this past weekend and mine was not like that. I would work it for about 4-6 passes and it came off with ease.

HUMP

[expdetailing]

I have some M205, I would say its thick enough to hold its shape when you put a glob on the pad.
If you shake it for a while and it's still runny, give-up on it and use something else like Ultimate Polish.

[RevitalizeAutoSpa]

I've had problems with M105, but never M205. It's a bit thinner than M105, but not by much.

[Mike Phillips]

M205 should have a consistency of a hand lotion. If it's watery after shaking then perhaps it was exposed to extreme heat?


Also, there's lots of technique variables when it comes to using a Porter Cable 7424XP to remove swirls.

Did you mark your backing plate so you could monitor pad rotation? PCs don't like large thick foam pads, I don't think there's a thin, small diameter hex-logic pad?


I always recommend people to read my DA Troubleshooting Guide BEFORE they get into trouble. For example you stated you're working a 2' x 2' by area? This is TOO large for this tool and especially if the pad isn't rotating due to too large or too thick of a pad and even more so if you're not on the 6 speed setting.

Give this a read through and see if there's any areas for tweaking your technique....


DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/37769-da-polisher-trouble-shooting-guide.html)



Tyler, age 15 removing swirls using a Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1436/medium/1965Plymouth035.jpg


When you're first starting out machine polishing and learning to use a DA Polisher it's common to have questions about your results and your results are directly tied to your technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.

2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.

3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.

4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.

5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.

6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.

7. Using too much product or using too little product.

8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Shrink the size of your work area down. You can't tackle to large of an area at one time. The average size work area should be around 20" by 20". Most generic recommendations say to work an area 2' by 2' but for the correction step, that's too large. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot. The harder the paint the smaller the area you want to work.


2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's easy and actually natural for most people new to machine polishing to move the polisher quickly over the paint but that's the wrong technique. One reason I think people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they hear the sound of the motor spinning fast and this has psychological effect which causes them to match their arm movement to the perceived fast speed of the polisher's motor.

Another reason people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they think like this,

"If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster"

But it doesn't work that way. Anytime you're trying to remove swirls, scratches, water spots or oxidation using a DA Polisher you need to move the polisher s-l-o-w-l-y over the paint.



3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting but this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad oscillating and rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the abrasives, the pad aggressiveness, and the downward pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches.

Removing below surface defects is a leveling process where you need the abrasives to take little bites out of the paint and to get the abrasives to take these little bites with a tool that uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23995-free-floating-spindle-assembly-story-behind-story.html) you need all of the above factors working for you including a high speed setting.



4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much downward pressure to the polisher and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.



5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.
If you push too hard you will slow down the rotating movement of the pad and the abrasives won't be effectively worked against the paint. You need to apply firm pressure to engage the abrasives against the paint but no so much that the pad is barely rotating. This is where it's a good idea to use a permanent black marker to make a mark on the back of your backing plate so your eyes can easily see if the pad is rotating or not and this will help you to adjust your downward pressure accordingly.

Correct technique means finding a balance of applying enough downward pressure to remove defects but not too much downward pressure as to stop the rotating movement of the pad.

This balance is affected by a lot of factors like the lubricity of the product you're using, some compounds and polishes provide more lubrication than others and this makes it easier to maintain pad rotation under pressure.

Another factor that can affect pad rotation are raised body lines, edges and curved surfaces as anytime you have uneven pressure on just a portion of the face of the pad it can slow or stop pad rotation. This is where experience comes into play and experience comes from time spent behind the polisher.



6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one edge of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease abrading ability.



7. Using too much product or using too little product.
Too much product hyper-lubricates the surface and the result is that abrasives won't effectively bite into the paint but instead will tend to skim over the surface. Overusing product will also accelerate pad saturation as well increase the potential for slinging splatter onto adjacent panels.

Too little product will means too little lubrication and this can interfere with pad rotation.

Again there needs to be a balance between too much product and too little product and finding this balance comes from reading articles like this one, watching videos an most important, going out into the garage and putting in time behind the polisher and as you're buffing with specific product and pad combinations, pay attention to pad rotation.



8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Most people simply don't clean their pad often enough to maximize the effectiveness of their DA Polisher. Anytime you're abrading the paint you have two things building up on the face of your buffing pad,

Removed paint


Spent product

As these to things build up on the face of the pad they become gummy and this has a negative affect on pad rotating plus makes wiping the leftover residue on the paint more difficult. To maintain good pad rotation you want to clean your pad often and always wipe-off any leftover product residue off the paint after working a section. Never add fresh product to your pad and work a section that still has leftover product residue on it.


Pad Cleaning Articles

Why it's important to clean your pads often... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/28755-why-s-important-clean-your-pads-often.html)

How to clean your foam pad on the fly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html)


:dblthumb2:

[Mike Phillips]

Video: Mark your backing plate to make it easy to see pad rotation (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/49489-video-mark-your-backing-plate-make-easy-see-pad-rotation.html)


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1423/MarkYourBackingPlate01.jpg

Here's a quick video that show how and why to mark your backing plate to see and monitor pad rotation while doing any correction or polishing steps.




How To Check Pad Rotation on a DA Polisher -...




5" Backing Plate
Lake Country 5" DA Backing Plate (http://www.autogeek.net/lc43125.html) <-- Get this one as the Velcro will match Lake Country Pads


The 5" Lake Country Backing Plates fits all popular dual action polishers including Porter Cable, Griot's Garage and Meguiar's.




Lake Country

5.5" Flat Pads (http://www.autogeek.net/lake-country-beveled-pad-kit.html)

In order from the most to the least aggressive

Yellow = Cutting pad (most aggressive)
Orange = Light Cutting Pad
White = Polishing Pad
Black = Finishing Pad
Blue = Waxing Pad (softest)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/811/5_5FlatPads01.jpg


The outer edge of the face of these pads is tapered so they are actually a little under 5" in diameter
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/811/5_5FlatPads02.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/811/5_5FlatPads03.jpg


Approximately 7/8" thick
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/811/5_5FlatPads04.jpg






Still working by hand?
If you need a dual action polisher, the Porter Cable 7424XP is a quality tool from Porter Cable and the tool that started the DA Polisher craze.


Here's the link to get your own Porter Cable 7424XP

Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher (http://www.autogeek.net/porter-cable-7424xp.html)


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=81487






If you have not read this and you're new to machine polishing... read it!

DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/37769-da-polisher-trouble-shooting-guide.html)






DON'T LOOSE THE COMPRESSION WASHER!

The Compression Washer (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/48913-compression-washer.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1423/5inchbackingpatesonDAPs013.jpg




Get a copy of my how-to book, comes in three options....


Detailing How-To Book and Detailing How-To E-book by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/64360-detailing-how-book-detailing-how-e-book.html)


Here are the links to get the paperback and e-book versions of the second edition of my detailing how-to book.

Mike Phillips’ The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine Paperback Book (http://www.autogeek.net/how-to-create-a-show-car-shine-book.html)


For those that want the e-book verson...

Mike Phillips’ The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine E-book Download (http://www.autogeek.net/complete-guide-to-shine-e-book.html)


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1313/Detailing_How_To_Book_ebook.jpg





You're going to need to learn this....

How to clean your foam pad on the fly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/994/EODodgeNeon011.jpg



Get head knowledge first and then go out into your garage...


How to Properly Use the Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher Updated! (http://www.autogeek.net/porter-cable-dvd.html)
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1313/PorterCableDVD.jpg




Also see these videos...

Video: How to remove shallow RIDS and how to machine apply both a paint sealant and a finishing wax (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/48365-video-how-remove-shallow-rids-how-machine-apply-both-paint-sealant-finishing-wax.html)


Video: How to buff tight areas plus concave and convex curved panels by machine (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/48368-video-how-buff-tight-areas-plus-concave-convex-curved-panels-machine.html)


Video: Tips for using a Rotary Buffer and the Flex 3401 on vertical panels (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/48334-video-tips-using-rotary-buffer-flex-3401-vertical-panels.html)

[jaxtalonturbo]

I have some M205, I would say its thick enough to hold its shape when you put a glob on the pad.
If you shake it for a while and it's still runny, give-up on it and use something else like Ultimate Polish.

It's definitely not holding it's "shape". It is like I'm pouring 2% milk on the pad.

[jaxtalonturbo]

Mike,

I'm not sure if it was extreme heat that altered the product, but I do believe it to be defective. I actually just got this stuff in only a few days prior, so it couldn't have been heat from my garage.

I have indeed marked my backing plate to make sure the pad is spinning (I have your book and dvd haha). I'm trying to use a slow arm motion, and apply 10-15lbs of pressure, but using a slow hand motion and working the product for anymore than 20-40 seconds will just cause the product to dry on, and then I'm spinning the pad dry... I believe that is where I'm getting my swirls.

I think I'm just going to ask them to swap out my 205 with another bottle. In the meantime, I'm going to replace using the 205 with something else.

[GettingStarted]

I was playing with M205 this morning and my bottle was still in its lotion like consistency although the remnants of some VRT I left in the garage is now at a water consistency. Think to say its safe to say its the heat.

[dlc95]

Do you have a white or blue Hex Logic pad available? The whit pad is firmer, and hold the abrasives to the paint better. The Blue is an open celled pad, and has the slightest bit of bite on it.

The blue Hex Logic, or green CCS pads are my typical starting point with m205/Ultimate Polish. The Hex Logic pads are very smooth running pads.

[expdetailing]

Retailers should be tracking their inventory. Where did you buy the M205 from?

[jaxtalonturbo]

Retailers should be tracking their inventory. Where did you buy the M205 from?

Take a guess? Lol. But in fairness, everything else I've gotten from Palm Beach Motoring (aka autogeek) has been great, aside from UPS and Fedex damaging and losing some stuff on the way. I haven't contacted them about this yet.

[jaxtalonturbo]

Do you have a white or blue Hex Logic pad available? The whit pad is firmer, and hold the abrasives to the paint better. The Blue is an open celled pad, and has the slightest bit of bite on it.

The blue Hex Logic, or green CCS pads are my typical starting point with m205/Ultimate Polish. The Hex Logic pads are very smooth running pads.

I have the aqua green in the smaller pad. I have white ones, but they are much thicker and in 6.5" size, and I was going to try to use them with a Rupes 21. Should I try a different material with that pad on the Rupes?