What's the Truth?

[chopper023]

I know Autogeek sells a multitude of different brands and products. This past week I was asking a manufacturing tech for one of the larger companies a question about one of their products and one you are very familiar with. In the conversation he said both Carnuba and polymers were both "sealants" and the only difference was the chemical make up and that the synthetics seem to last a little longer.

I mentioned that I used a sealant (Klasse) and after waiting 12 hours I layered a coat of "wax." He replied that such is a misnomer, and that what I was really doing was "mixing" the two together! That no sealant, with the exception of one or two, "bonds" with clearcoat. I know that nano technology is real, especially in regards to paint, but what is, "The Truth" in regards to all of this?! This tech said there is no such thing as layering, and that in truth it is really mixing.

Just wondering? Having a marketing past--every company has the "best and the greatest!" I understand the marketing but what is the truth about layering and sealants "bonding?"

[allenk4]

Here we go....again and again and again

[FUNX650]

•I don't know if it's necessary for anything but having 2 atoms being in proximity of each other, for "some type" of bond to form.
-(this will include , but not limited to: covalent, van der Waal, hydrogen, etc.)

-But I'm sure there are certain environments/conditions that make for ideal bonding, though.


•What I would really like to know is:
-Which elements/molecules...in automotive paint...are being targeted for these bonds to form, between said automotive paint and all the various LSPs?

-There must be some commonalities if an LSP is to be able to bond with various formulas of paint...Right?


@OP:
I'd be forever grateful if you would run the above questions of mine by your unidentified manufacturing-tech "source".

•Perhaps he/she will be able to:
-Tell all of us...those "bonding secrets"?!?!
{Between you and me...I hope your source works at Optimum Polymer Technologies, Inc.}


Bob

[Mike Phillips]

Here we go....again and again and again




Yep.... this is one of those topics that never goes away... that's why I wrote an article or two for it.... so instead of typing-out a new reply over and over again I just copy and paste the link to the article.



Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/31186-miscible-immiscible-wax-paint-sealant-bonding.html)



It was actually the Zaino products that started or at least re-invigorated the idea of layering. I know, I'm a veteran of the Zaino vs NXT wars.


:laughing:

[Mike Phillips]

This one has to do with layering also,


Topping - Definition - How to Top also called Topping (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/40089-topping-definition-how-top-also-called-topping.html)


And another related article....


Sacrificial Barrier Coating = The purpose of a wax or synthetic paint sealant (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/28566-sacrificial-barrier-coating-purpose-wax-synthetic-paint-sealant.html)




:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

In the conversation he said both Carnauba and polymers were both "sealants" and the only difference was the chemical make up and that the synthetics seem to last a little longer.




He's right. Bot traditional Carnauba Car Waxes and Synthetic Paint Sealants are sealants in the context that they seal the surface. They create a sacrificial barrier coating that resists wearing down when exposed to water and other forms of attack.

Most people think that a polymer means something that is synthetic or man-made but that's not true. A polymer is just a set of repeating monomers. Carnauba is a natural ingredient but I've been told it's also a polymer. (I'm not a chemist and never pretend on discussion forums to be one).


I've also been told the skin on a human being is a polymer but we don't think of our skin as being synthetic.

What I recommend and practice is to NOT make washing and waxing your car Rocket Science. Keep it simple. Find something you like and use it often and you're car will always look great.


:)

[cleanmycorolla]

Here we go....again and again and again

Lol the once again over analyzing of LSP's.

[Paul A.]

Ah yes, the science side comes up again! I actually like this stuff and can't read Mike's responses enough. And as a testament to the op's question, it is one of the most prolific questions...how can i get my LSP to last as long as i possibly can? How does it bond best?

I enjoy Mike sharing his knowledge from the actual chemists he has had the experience of actually discussing this with. Yes, a search for this info will yield the answers as best described by the product inventors but i still enjoy the "reset" question every once in a while. In my feeble mind as in most, repetition is a good teacher!

[Niblick]

Quote: "That no sealant, with the exception of one or two, "bonds" with clearcoat"

how on earth does he think it says on the car if its not forming a bond with it? if there wasn't some form of bond between them, then the sealant would simply fall off the paint as you drove down the road, thats just nuts!

[PiPUK]

Unfortunately this tech has used terminology rather loosely. This is something that you have to be very careful with. In this example, he has decided to use 'sealant' in a generic fashion then has decided to use 'bond' in an extremely specific manner. From a chemical perspective, he is simply wrong on the bonding issue. He may be referring to permanent covalent bonds, in which case he is mostly correct but there are other ways of bonding to a surface (which are somewhat less permanent). There is a night and day difference between how a carnauba wax 'sticks' to a surface and how some polymers do so and the dismissal of this is only going to confuse further.

[Mike Phillips]

For some reason I've always loved this quote from Tom Mosca....



I've never walked out into a garage only to find out that overnight the wax or paint sealant I applied slipped off the car's paint and piled-up on the floor surrounding the car because it didn't bond or stick to the paint.



To take this thread to a different tangent, outside of prepping a car for winter, most of us, me included "do something" to the paint on our toys often enough that the last thing we need to worry about is if there's any wax left on the paint.

Recently I buffed out my own truck with "something" and then Nick tested something else on it.

And if it's not raining tomorrow night, I'll probably wax my truck at the Tuesday night car show using the cordless Griot's wax machine.


:)

[chopper023]

Was really looking for a simple answer, and not to create some tirade by experts. The name of the company was Mike's former place of employement! So if you are on here just a "little bit" you know who the company I am refering to.

I too, really enjoy the videos and comments from Mike, and that is why I ask the question. There does seem to be a lot of outrageous claims about waxes and sealants--so it was a simple question.

I use Klasse Sealant and Collinite and it works for me--Have a great day fellas!

[Setec Astronomy]

Was really looking for a simple answer, and not to create some tirade by experts.

Well, as you hinted at in your original post, between the complicated science and the convoluted marketing hyperbole, there is no easy answer.

The one guy (other than PiPUK) that I would trust for a straight, truthful answer, would be Dr. G at Optimum, who apparently answers the phone sometimes. Might be worth a call over there.

[FUNX650]

Was really looking for a simple answer, and not to create some tirade by experts. The name of the company was Mike's former place of employement! So if you are on here just a "little bit" you know who the company I am refering to.

I too, really enjoy the videos and comments from Mike, and that is why I ask the question. There does seem to be a lot of outrageous claims about waxes and sealants--so it was a simple question.

I use Klasse Sealant and Collinite and it works for me--Have a great day fellas!
•Whether there were: some tirade, or not, by experts:
-You go right on believing, that you asked simple questions, that have simple answers.

TO WIT:


Just wondering? Having a marketing past--every company has the "best and the greatest!"

I understand the marketing but

what is the truth about layering

and

sealants "bonding?"

BTW:
Mr. Phillips' former employer's name is evoked quite regularly, and in its entirety, on the AGO forum.


In fact:
Please feel free to join-up with a bunch of fanatics on the below listed thread (though I can't really guarantee there'll be no experts found posting on this thread.):

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/61876-official-meguiar-s-crew-fanatics-chat-thread.html

Bob