Embarrassed to say it buy i'm confused...need help with polishes

[cfiiman]

Ok, so I'm looking to take out some minor stright line scratches on my car. The paint is pretty much swirl free it just has scratches here in there, some small some long. Some from the original owner that are deep and I don't think can come out and probably some from me even though I'm very careful when washing (2BM or 2BM rinsless). I'm assuming if it was from me it was b/c I was using older mitts that I wash the daily drivers with, I have since switched to separate buckets, mitts and towels just for this car. I think it is inevitable that you will pick up a scratch here or there b/c we do not work in 100% sterile environments.

Fast forward to now and I'm wanting to polish some of these out. I have a whole polish system from Adam's and a PC7424XP, that is what I used to make the paint swirl free. Well the medium cut swirl and haze compound seems to be doing nothing anymore to any of the scratches no matter how much I work it, and I just feel like it should, I'm really not sure what is going on. I thought maybe it is the older pads, so I pulled out a new Adam's pad (most aggressive one) it did nothing, so like a dummy I tried a little wetsanding on a small test area and now I have those scratches to deal with too (see other thread). I'm thinking maybe compounds go bad over time???? That seems like all it could be or maybe it just doesn't have enough bite to it, either way I'm looking to change and see if there is a difference. I know some scratches won't come out, like if you can feel it with your fingernail, but some of these should have been removed.

Problem is I don't know what to choose and the more I research the more confused I get. Every company has multiple products that seem to do the same thing and I honestly don't know what to get. I'm not asking for your "favorite" brand or anything, I just want to know "what" to use for "what" I'm trying to do. So here is situation:

1. Car is gorgeous, deep, wet looking, in class show winner.

2. No swirls, or very minor if there are, probably down low on the car if there is any.

3. Lots of annoying little (some long) straight scratches here and there, looks like from something getting into the wash mitt, probably the previous owner but some could be from me.

My thought was I needed a rubbing compound for the scratches correct? But do I use that on the whole panel, or just where I see scratches? I was thinking Ultimate Compound or Mothers scratch remover. I don't know how these relate to the "Adam's" system, I'm assuming UC is like the Swirl and Haze Remover? What do I follow those up with, I know a finer polish, but they make it confusing. I was thinking with going with the 1,2,3 Mothers, but I don't know if there step 1 is aggressive enough? Thanks for any guidance.

[Mike Phillips]

I'm assuming UC is like the Swirl and Haze Remover?



I wouldn't make that assumption.

A lot of people, not saying you, but a lot of people think "abrasive technology" is all equal across all the brands on the market and I'm here to tell you that just isn't so.

I test everything on black paint. If it won't make black paint look good it isn't going to make any paint look good.

You didn't say what you used for sandpaper and like abrasive technology there's great sandpaper and caveman sandpaper. You can tell the caveman sandpaper by the tracers left in the paint after buffing for a few minutes and removing all the shallow sanding marks to reveal the tracers.

When working on car paint, never skimp on abrasive technology or anything that will abrade the paint. (sandpaper)




If I were in your shoes I would get the UC.

When it comes to removing sanding marks, if it's just a small area then you can remove paint faster by hand than with LARGE foam pads. Not sure what size your pads are but a small foam pad would be a 5.5" that's at least 7/8" thin.

I think I've shared the below link with you in previous posts but here it is again, scroll down and look at the pads...

Video: Mark your backing plate to make it easy to see pad rotation (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/49489-video-mark-your-backing-plate-make-easy-see-pad-rotation.html)


When working by hand you have to push down hard and move your hand back and forth at the speed of light, like this,

How to use a hand applied abrasive polish or paint cleaner by hand (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/26612-how-use-hand-applied-abrasive-polish-paint-cleaner-hand.html)



http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/RemvovingSandingMarksbyHand01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/RemvovingSandingMarksbyHand02.jpg





When working out sanding marks by hand you will usually leave behind light toweling scratches, that's okay the dual action polisher will remove these.

All the above is for what it's worth... Ive done this a lot....






How to remove wetsanding scratches by hand - FG 400 (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/58151-how-remove-wetsanding-scratches-hand-fg-400-a.html)


Anytime you're wetsanding a car there will be places you cannot easily or safely get a rotary buffer and a buffing pad to remove your sanding marks. In these situations you need an aggressive compound that you can use by hand.

The trick is to remove your sanding marks while not scouring the paint from the abrasives used in the compound. If you leave light or shallow scratches that's okay because the tricky and important goal is to be able to remove the sanding marks, you can always refine your results using a finer polish applied by hand.

For the wetsanding, cutting and buffing project on the mystery car this weekend there will be places where it will be risky to remove sanding marks using a machine, at least the initial cut.

So before leaving the well equipped Autogeek garage, I machine sanded one of our black paint panels and then tested the new Menzerna FG 400...


Paint panel machine sanded using #3000 Triazact...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/787/Remove_Sanding_Marks_by_hand_001.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/787/Remove_Sanding_Marks_by_hand_002.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/787/Remove_Sanding_Marks_by_hand_003.jpg



Use a cloth applicator with a nap
To make any compound or polish more aggressive use a cloth applicator pad or cloth material that has a nap. The larger more stout the nap the more aggressive the abrading action.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/787/Remove_Sanding_Marks_by_hand_004.jpg



Chemically stripping the paint
Looks great before chemically stripping so lets strip the paint to make sure the sanding mars are in fact removed. I don't care if there are toweling marks because I expect that from the pressure I'm going to be applying when rubbing the paint hard to remove small particles of paint.

Removing clear coat paint by hand requires putting some pressure behind the pad...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/787/Remove_Sanding_Marks_by_hand_005.jpg


Sanding marks removed, only fine or shallow toweling marks remain...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/787/Remove_Sanding_Marks_by_hand_006.jpg


Close-up cropped out of the above shot...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/787/Remove_Sanding_Marks_by_hand_006c.jpg


Chunk of masking tape to give my camera something more definitive to focus on...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/787/Remove_Sanding_Marks_by_hand_007.jpg


From another angle you can see the flash of my camera lighting up the paint but you can also see how distinct the 4 florescent tube lights are overhead.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/787/Remove_Sanding_Marks_by_hand_008.jpg


Here I've pushed the panel closer to the work bench to capture a reflection of the holes in the peg board...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/787/Remove_Sanding_Marks_by_hand_009.jpg



Success!
We'll be using Menzerna FG 400 to cut out our sanding marks for the wetsanding project this weekend and for the areas we cannot safely buff by machine we can use FG 400 by hand. Yancy says he can capture this on video too...








What do I follow those up with, I know a finer polish, but they make it confusing. I was thinking with going with the 1,2,3 Mothers, but I don't know if there step 1 is aggressive enough?

Thanks for any guidance.

Here, make it real simple on yourself and guarantee professional results every time...

Get the first three products.... the paint sealant is very good to if you need a sealant. The first three are,


Aggressive Compound - But still incredibly safe.
Medium Cut Polish
Fine Cut Polish






The Wolfgang Four (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/74198-wolfgang-four.html)


Here are four products that will take care of about 99.9% of any exterior paint correction product you'll ever have in your garage.


The Wolfgang Four
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/The_Wolfgang_Four.jpg


Forum member RFulmer (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-tools-accessories/73908-need-help-rupes-flex-6.html#post1003767) coined this term, (due credit where credit is due), and since there's been a lot of questions about what each product is, what they do, the order of aggressiveness and when you use one over the other, here's some info...





Uber Compound

Aggressive Compound - More aggressive than Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover and Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.
For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
Cafe for all clear coat paints.
Safe for all single stage paints.
For some people on some cars it can be used as a compound/polish after which the paint can be sealed with a wax or synthetic paint sealant.



Total Swirl Remover

Medium Cut Polish - Less aggressive than Uber Compound and more aggressive than Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.
For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
Cafe for all clear coat paints.
Safe for all single stage paints.
Should be tested before using Uber Compound to see if it will remove defects to our satisfaction in keeping with the practice of using the least aggressive product to get the job done.



Finishing Glaze

Fine Cut Polish - Much less aggressive than Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover and of course dramatically less aggressive than Wolfgang Uber Compound.
For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
Cafe for all clear coat paints.
Safe for all single stage paints.
Should be tested before using Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover to see if it will remove defects to our satisfaction in keeping with the practice of using the least aggressive product to get the job done.
Great "Maintenance Polish" for use removing shallow swirls that show up over time from normal wear-n-tear on daily drivers and after a person has already performed a multi-step procedure to remove serious paint defects.



Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0

German engineered synthetic paint sealant.
Non-cleaning, pure synthetic - Paint must be in excellent condition as in brand new or previously polished to like new condition before use.
Can be applied by hand or any type of dual action polisher wit foam pads.
This product "seals" the paint in the say way a car wax or paint coating will seal the paint. It is water insoluble and as such like all synthetic paint sealants, car waxes and paint coatings is not body shop safe.
Requires 30 to 45 minutes of drying time before removal.
Oxygen activated. After buffing off the excess sealant the remaining protection ingredients should be allowed to cure and fully set-up for an approximate 12 hour window of time before the vehicle is put back into service where it will be exposed to water.

Synergistic Chemical Compatibility
Each product is chemically compatible and chemically beneficial when used as a system approach to take a diamond in the rough and turn it into a glistening gemstone. Using the entire line in the correct order or just a few of the product in the correct order is an example of working forward in the paint polishing process.


All Inclusive System-Approach
This group of four products with just about any tool, any pad and even by hand will produce not only show car results but do it consistently across a VERY wide spectrum of paint systems including,

Hard paints, soft paints and everything in-between.
Factory OEM paints and aftermarket repaints at your local body shop or custom paint shop.
Single stage and basecoat clearcoat.
Which products do you need?
Which product you'll need depend upon the condition of the paint on the car. Click to my list of paint condition categories and read through the descriptions for the different categories. Then after washing and drying your car, inspect the paint both with your sense of touch, (The Baggie Test), and visually with your eyes in bright light for swirls and scratches.

Then determine which category your car's paint fall into. Here are some general guidelines but the best way to determine which exact product you'll need to remove the defects and restore the finish on your car to your expectations can only be determined by doing a Test Spot


How To Do a Test Spot (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/50162-how-do-test-spot.html)


Test Spot results showing the before and after difference...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1422/FlexVideo005.jpg






On Autogeek.net

Wolfgang Uber Compound 3.0 (http://www.autogeek.net/wg-5601.html)

Total Swirl Remover (http://www.autogeek.net/wolfgang-total-swirl-remover-car-polish-3-0.html)

Finishing Glaze (http://www.autogeek.net/wolfgang-finishing-glaze-finishing-polish-3-0.html)

Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0 (http://www.autogeek.net/wg5500.html)


And if you don't have a 5" backing plate and 5.5" pads get them...

5 inch Backing Plates on Meguiar's, Griot's and Porter Cable DA Polishers (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-tools-accessories/48668-5-inch-backing-plates-meguiar-s-griot-s-porter-cable-da-polishers.html)





:xyxthumbs:

[cfiiman]

Mike, thanks for your wonderful answer, I'll pick up the UC. I used 3M paper, 1500 first (I know too course) and then 2500. The thing is I tried the Adam's swirl and haze on a microfiber applicator by hand, and I rubbed hard and it seemed to make it worse. Now the scratches seem to extend from only 2" long to 4-5" long, almost like the compound was causing them. Then I switched to the PC7424XP and nothing, I've never experienced this before, I always thought I was pretty good at correcting stuff until this, that is why I'm praying it is just the old polish.

Can you tell me if I pick up the UC would I use it on the whole panel, or just the scratched places on the panel? If I was only to use it on the scratched areas would I use something else on the rest of the panel? And lastly, is there anything wrong with using UC on the whole panel even if say 90% of it is in really nice condition? I know you are suppose to choose a polish based on the amount of damage you have, but what happens like in this case where you have very little damage say 10% of a panel has scratches, but those scratches are sporadically spread over a Thanks again!

I re-read your post and saw that you said:

Get the first three products.... the paint sealant is very good to if you need a sealant. The first three are,
Aggressive Compound - But still incredibly safe.
Medium Cut Polish
Fine Cut Polish

I know you said to get the UC which I will, what would be the other 2 from Meguiars, or would I have to go to another brand? I'd prefer to pick it up locally so I can start immediately on it, thanks.

[Mike Phillips]

Mike, thanks for your wonderful answer,




That's what I try to do on this forum, post detailed, helpful answers. That way the readers, be they lurkers or members win. Most forum you get one liners and that's about in, no links to more info no nothing...

The forum supports the AG store... then if we earn your business via the support of this forum, (detailed answers), that's called win/win.


That said, I do understand the convenience of getting product local... not sure if the support, that is the guy behind the counter will give you any useful detailing information.

I use to call on auto parts stores as a part of my job as an Outside Sales Rep and Trainer and as such one of my jobs was to TRY to train the counter men and women and for the most part, in 3 states it was a waste of time as most of these people were just order takers. They'd recommend any product you bring to the counter then say... next.


But to your questions...

Use the UC on the affected area and then over the entire car if needed.

After that, use the Ultimate Polish and a polishing pad. Then go to wax.


:xyxthumbs:

[cfiiman]

That's what I try to do on this forum, post detailed, helpful answers. That way the readers, be they lurkers or members win. Most forum you get one liners and that's about in, no links to more info no nothing...

The forum supports the AG store... then if we earn your business via the support of this forum, (detailed answers), that's called win/win.


That said, I do understand the convenience of getting product local... not sure if the support, that is the guy behind the counter will give you any useful detailing information.

I use to call on auto parts stores as a part of my job as an Outside Sales Rep and Trainer and as such one of my jobs was to TRY to train the counter men and women and for the most part, in 3 states it was a waste of time as most of these people were just order takers. They'd recommend any product you bring to the counter then say... next.


But to your questions...

Use the UC on the affected area and then over the entire car if needed.

After that, use the Ultimate Polish and a polishing pad. Then go to wax.


:xyxthumbs:

Hi Mike, thanks again. I agree 100% with what you said, and to answer your assumption, no, the counter people know nothing, I simply just got it there b/c I'm trying to fix it today. If I wasn't under I time crunch or in the future I'll try to place orders for even the local stuff on here b/c I appreciate the help. I picked up both the UC and UP from Meguiars and will let you know how it comes out.

On a side note, If I went out and wiped anywhere on my car right now with a microfiber cloth, that has the Adam's Buttery Wax and Brilliant Glaze applied to it, a cloudy white haze will appear, the harder I buff the more it shows up, then after a few seconds (maybe 30) it seems to go away. Do you possibly know what is happening? I KNOW it is either the wax/glaze or the combo of the two, and I have always disliked that. It is hard to complain when the car looks so pretty, I just feel like it makes it difficult to tell what you are trying to do to it when wiping it down or something when the cloudiness appears. This is why I want to switch completely over to something new.

[Mike Phillips]

On a side note, If I went out and wiped anywhere on my car right now with a microfiber cloth, that has the Adam's Buttery Wax and Brilliant Glaze applied to it, a cloudy white haze will appear, the harder I buff the more it shows up, then after a few seconds (maybe 30) it seems to go away. Do you possibly know what is happening?




Sounds like whatever is on there is being disrupted...

You simply need to get it off and get back to a fresh base....





This is why I want to switch completely over to something new.



If you want a really sweet wax that gives your paint the wet look and wins first place trophies for all my buddies that use it... get yourself a jar of Pinnacle Souveran Paste Wax.


Meanwhile back on the farm... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/59924-meanwhile-back-farm.html)

1970 Cuda wins First Place after Show Car Makeover at Autogeek! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/57474-1970-cuda-wins-first-place-after-show-car-makeover-autogeek.html)

1970 Cuda wins First Place after Show Car Makeover at Autogeek! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/57474-1970-cuda-wins-first-place-after-show-car-makeover-autogeek.html)

3 "Best of Class" wins for Autogeek Forum Members at Super Chevy! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-autogeek-s-car-week/48004-3-best-class-wins-autogeek-forum-members-super-chevy.html)

Tommy's Camaro WINS AGAIN!!!!!!!! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/69415-tommy-s-camaro-wins-again.html)


Tommy told me the only time he's lost a car show in the last few years is when he was beat by Den's 1969 GTO


Back in Black! 1969 GTO!!! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/73934-back-black-1969-gto.html)


:D

[cfiiman]

I will check it out thanks! I'm assuming it is ok to use over the Meguiars polish? Thanks again.

[refreshauto]

where are you located, im sure another local member can help you out

[Mike Phillips]

I will check it out thanks! I'm assuming it is ok to use over the Meguiars polish? Thanks again.

I'd go for the UC the UP and the M26...


:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

where are you located, im sure another local member can help you out




That is stellar advice Vargas... we have so many really nice members always willing to lend a hand....

In fact.... you're one of those guys.... you volunteered to help me out!


Autogeek's Pro Detail Team in Kentucky! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/company-forum-news-headlines/83268-autogeek-s-pro-detail-team-kentucky.html)


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=79202


From left to right...

David aka Trutech74
Vargas - refreshauto <-- Stellar Forum Member!
Bob - b0b
Billy - Billy B
Allen - OCD-Tailing
Dennis Gage
Mike Phillips
Jordan - FlawlessJ
Chris - PorscheGuy997
Paul - EastsideAutoSpa


(All these guys were great!)



:dblthumb2:

[cfiiman]

Hey guys, thanks for the offer, I'm outside of Louisville but I have an update. The UC did a great job with an orange pad. I had to spend a good amount of time on it but where as last night it seemed to get worse, today with the UC it gradually got better and better. I'd say it is about a 75&#37; improvement so I'm going to call it done. The only thing I can think of is the clear coat must be hard as nails so it was easy to put the scratches in with the 1500 not soaked (soooooo stupid, doh!) but very hard to get out with a DA. The thing I was baffled by is the UC seemed to take out some scratches in other places which was fantastic, but didn't take out others that looked the same to me, so maybe they are just deeper? I can't feel any of them with my fingernail or anything but it doesn't make sense so I'm thinking they are just deeper. I know I could probably get it out 100% with a rotary, but I don't have one and it doesn't bother me now that I've used the UC. I really like this product, it leaves a nice surface and I haven't even used the UP yet. I'm thinking of upgrading to the Flex, but I like the safety of the PC.