First 5-step Detailing. Please help with the products and techniques.

[rebanee]

Good morning.

I would like to do a 5-step detailing on the exterior of my car. I have only done washing and drying so far with no experience removing swirls and scratches. Please help me choose products and good technique regarding application by hand. Links would be greatly appreciated. I mostly use Meguair's and ONR products.

Environment: Dry hot weather on the Mojave Desert. Beautiful environment but has a lots of bugs and birds. Water is available but is very hard. I don't own a garage so my car spends most of its time under a shade of tree. I also don't want to mess the street by having suds all over the block. Because of this, I use California duster and ONR (on washing and detailing ratios) to clean my vehicle. I mostly do my cleaning on the early morning.

Vehicle: Honda 2014 CR-V. It has swirls from automated car washing and some isolated scratches. But at this stage I want to protect it before any major damage from the environment will be done.



Plan:

1. Washing: Spray car with water to remove dirt and then spray the car with distilled water mixed with ONR at detailing ratio to minimize water spots and to help lift up dirt, followed by washing with ONR using the two-bucket technique. And then dry carefully with waffle weave microfiber towel.

2. Surface preparation: Clay the car with Clay Magic with ONR as lubricant. After that, I will remove swirls and scratches using Swirl X, ScratchX and Ultimate Compound using hand technique. As I mentioned I don't have my own garage so using a polisher might be difficult. I won't mind using my elbow grease.

3. Polish: Will use Meguair's Deep Crystal Polish. The car has limited clear coat so I don't want to use abrasive products too much. If you have any more suggestions for a pure polish from Meguair's, please tell me.

4. Protect: I will use Meguair's Ultimate Liquid Wax as it can be applied in the sun. I chose a synthetic sealant instead of carnauba wax because someone suggested to me that carnauba wax is not good on desert environment as it will attract dust. Is this true?

5. Maintain: I will use ONR Wash and Shine at detail ratio. Also California Duster on light dust.


Additional questions:
1. How many clay bars and applicator pads can I use to clean a whole car? How do I know if I need another clay bar or applicator pad?

2. Any good suggestions on clay bars that I can buy in bulk?

2. Is it really necessary to wipe down the car with 10% IPA or mineral spirits before you wax? I'm just afraid that it will damage the paint.


Can you please suggest and help improve my planned technique or products to be used? Thank you for your help. I'm excited to do detailing but I don't want to rush at the same time. :buffing:Feed back please

[ShaunD]

Considering the variables in your environment and experience level, I would stick to a simpler detailing procedure. Unless you see defects that bother you and you know you can remove them by hand, via a test spot, I wouldn't bother polishing the whole vehicle by hand. In cases like this it would be more efficient to do your wash and decontamination steps followed by a cleaner wax/sealant. If you must do a the whole vehicle by hand, and it truly needs compounding/polishing, then spreading the process out and efficiently working one section at a time would be a good recommendation. As far as what you would need, materials wise, one clay bar of medium to fine grade (Clay Magic, Meguiar's, Mother's, or an AG house brand) would serve your purpose. As well as a few applicators for polishing/compounding, foam and or microfiber, and at least half a dozen quality gp MFs and a few plusher high quality MFs for finish work like finishing polish/LSP removal. Work in the shade as much as possible and find a way to mitigate dust and direct sun, like with a canopy or a garage.
Happy Detailing!

[brondondolon]

The color of the car would help and possibly even a pic. First thing is do a test spot to find the least aggressive approach.

Depending on paint thickness and current condition here is what I'd do.

Severely compromised paint:
-Wash
-Clay with nanoskin sponge and clay lube
-Compound wolfgange uber compound and orange flat pad
-Polish Wolfgang total swirl remover and white flat pad
-Fine polish Wolfgang glaze and black flat pad
-Wax colinite 845 and blue flat pad

If the paint was in alright condition:
-Wash
-Clay with nanoskin and clay lube
-Polish megs D151 white or Orange flat pad
-Wax colinite 845 and blue flat pad

IPA wipe down is only necessary if you're applying a coating IMO.


Sent from my HTC6435LVW using AG Online

[The Guz]

You say your car has thin clear yet you want to compound which has abrasives in it. Your car is a 2014 so it's fairly new. The clear coat should be fine unless you have been compounding it a lot. Have you taken actual paint thickness readings? Are you sure you did not mean soft clear which Honda's are known to have?

I saw you mentioned you are doing this by hand. Just to be sure you will be doing all this by hand or by machine?

If it was me I would go ahead and have the car coated once the paint has been corrected. Better to protect the paint since the car is fairly new.

If you want to stick with Mwguiar's products then I would either

1. wash
2. clay
3. white wax or black wax. White wax offers more cleaning and black wax offers more polishing oils
4. Optional you can top with a sealant like ultimate wax.

If you are going to do a 5 step. Then I would try a test spot with ultimate polish and a polishing pad, that is if you are using a DA polisher. If by hand, you would be fine starting off with ultimate compound by hand following with ultimate polish and ultimate wax.

[cleanmycorolla]

You guys who do stuff by hand still, god bless ya! Machine or no detail for me....

[rebanee]

Considering the variables in your environment and experience level, I would stick to a simpler detailing procedure. Unless you see defects that bother you and you know you can remove them by hand, via a test spot, I wouldn't bother polishing the whole vehicle by hand. In cases like this it would be more efficient to do your wash and decontamination steps followed by a cleaner wax/sealant. If you must do a the whole vehicle by hand, and it truly needs compounding/polishing, then spreading the process out and efficiently working one section at a time would be a good recommendation. As far as what you would need, materials wise, one clay bar of medium to fine grade (Clay Magic, Meguiar's, Mother's, or an AG house brand) would serve your purpose. As well as a few applicators for polishing/compounding, foam and or microfiber, and at least half a dozen quality gp MFs and a few plusher high quality MFs for finish work like finishing polish/LSP removal. Work in the shade as much as possible and find a way to mitigate dust and direct sun, like with a canopy or a garage.
Happy Detailing!


I am also planning on adding CQuartz on the vehicle. Is this advisable? What do you recommend for claying a new car but has swirls due to automated car washes, medium or fine grade? I have the waffle weave drying microfiber towel, is that good?



The color of the car would help and possibly even a pic. First thing is do a test spot to find the least aggressive approach.

Depending on paint thickness and current condition here is what I'd do.

Severely compromised paint:
-Wash
-Clay with nanoskin sponge and clay lube
-Compound wolfgange uber compound and orange flat pad
-Polish Wolfgang total swirl remover and white flat pad
-Fine polish Wolfgang glaze and black flat pad
-Wax colinite 845 and blue flat pad

If the paint was in alright condition:
-Wash
-Clay with nanoskin and clay lube
-Polish megs D151 white or Orange flat pad
-Wax colinite 845 and blue flat pad

IPA wipe down is only necessary if you're applying a coating IMO.



Yes I will be starting with the least aggressive approach. I will be uploading pictures soon but my problem is that it keeps raining and on the desert, rain brings so much dust on vehicle.




You say your car has thin clear yet you want to compound which has abrasives in it. Your car is a 2014 so it's fairly new. The clear coat should be fine unless you have been compounding it a lot. Have you taken actual paint thickness readings? Are you sure you did not mean soft clear which Honda's are known to have?

I saw you mentioned you are doing this by hand. Just to be sure you will be doing all this by hand or by machine?

If it was me I would go ahead and have the car coated once the paint has been corrected. Better to protect the paint since the car is fairly new.

If you want to stick with Mwguiar's products then I would either

1. wash
2. clay
3. white wax or black wax. White wax offers more cleaning and black wax offers more polishing oils
4. Optional you can top with a sealant like ultimate wax.

If you are going to do a 5 step. Then I would try a test spot with ultimate polish and a polishing pad, that is if you are using a DA polisher. If by hand, you would be fine starting off with ultimate compound by hand following with ultimate polish and ultimate wax.


My point is that there is a limited clear coat in the vehicle so I don't want to keep scrubbing my vehicle. Yes, I will be doing things by hand.



Thank you so much for all your tips.

[trekkeruss]

I am also planning on adding CQuartz on the vehicle. Is this advisable?

It's a great idea for your circumstances.


What do you recommend for claying a new car but has swirls due to automated car washes, medium or fine grade?

You have a new car; fine grade will be enough. But used Iron-X or other iron remover beforehand.


I have the waffle weave drying microfiber towel, is that good?

I use one.


My point is that there is a limited clear coat in the vehicle so I don't want to keep scrubbing my vehicle. Yes, I will be doing things by hand.

All cars have limited clear coat. But you have a new car that has never been polished before. So don't worry about scrubbing the paint off, especially by hand. It's just not going to happen, unless you plan on using a Brillo pad. That said, it's good that you'll start with the least aggressive products.

[cardaddy]

I really fail to understand, even comprehend how one would do a 5-step paint correction on anything, much less a brand new CRV by hand. That is just insane, imho. :dunno:

That out of the way; the OP mentioned using (pretty much) all OTC products. That'd rule out Megs 151 (which is a GREAT choice btw), but NOT what I'd suggest putting on UNDERNEATH A COATING.

Moving back to Megs UC & UP would be fine though. :)

Also, you would indeed want to do a alcohol wipe down, (but at stronger than 10%). This is where Eraser would come in handy, and a single bottle is WAY MORE than enough. :props: I however have started using Megs 114 with alcohol added to a 20% (or better) solution.

Speaking of wash alternatives, Megs 114 is a FANTASTIC product, no waxes added, just a great cleaning, clear wiping, leaves nothing behind, rinseless wash.

Got sidetracked though.
I just cannot recommend doing all that work by hand. Not when you can pick up a Harbor Freight buffer, or even the GG6. There are a ton of discount codes out there for Advance Auto Parts, (up to $40 off $100 or 30% of anything... site wide) and they sell both the 3" and 6" unit. Combine the GG6 with a 5" backing plate and 4 orange, 4 white, 2 blue & 2 black pads and you'll be able to do anything. Is it a bit to spend going in? Well yes it is! But keep in mind that the investment is not just for THAT vehicle, it's for everything you own (both now and in the future). That is literally a 10 to 20 year investment.:dblthumb2:

Not saying it CAN'T be done, just that you'll likely hate yourself, wear your fingers to the bone, and despise that new CRV by the time it's done. :rolleyes:

Now, doing a paint correction (as little as can be done by hand) may be somewhat possible, but nowhere NEAR optimal. Would it be good enough to say follow with a hand applied glaze, then wax? Sure! (In a perfect world perhaps.) Just think that the glaze will be needed to fill in the swirls and scratches that 1; didn't get repaired, and 2; will end up with more of from the hand process along the way.

Moving on to cQuartz. This would be a perfect time to apply it, when - the - vehicle - is - new. However; and more importantly..... there is NEVER a situation where I would tell an owner to apply cQuartz (or any other coating) over paint that hasn't been perfectly corrected. EVER! Remember that a coating doesn't "cover up", it simply locks in whatever imperfections that are already there. The application of a coating is meant to protect, as much as possible, and as long as possible.... CORRECTED paint. Not just shiny paint, not 'just' hand rubbed paint, not waxed, not polymer protected, but machine - corrected - paint. ;)

I had a body shop manager call me a while back, asking what the price of a coating was. That's like asking what color blue is the sky in the east I told him. Same as saying you can write one estimate to repair every vehicle that comes in the shop. Now had he said "What is the up-charge for a coating?" I could have answered that. That part is simple. But the prep is what makes a coating do what it does. And imho, the ONLY way a coating should be applied is AFTER proper prep. That is when I told him that a coating could run from $595 to $2595, all depends on the prep.

Moving on;
The suggestions thus far, 1 bar of clay, staying out of the sun, etc. are spot on. Just as the fact that you will never wear through your clear coat by hand polishing! Unless you take 180 grit sandpaper and/or are trying with all your might to destroy it, you'll not break through the clear. ;)

By the same standards, you'll not get it swirl free either. Even if it's known to be "soft" (which makes it easier to correct... to a degree) as hand application of all the appropriate compounds, polishes, glazes, sealants, etc. will take a plethora of different pads. Don't expect to just grab a hand full of yellow OTC foam applicator pads and end up with results that are going to be what you want, much less what various Lake Country pads will provide.

You also want to invest in a dozen decent microfiber towels. Microfiber Tech has excellent prices on 360 GSM (regular thread) and 400 GSM (ultra-fine thread) units that will not harm that Honda's paint. Also the suggestion that you start, ONE AREA AT A TIME could not be more helpful. When doing by hand you want to do very small areas, do them start to finish, and DO NOT move to another area/panel before the first one is finished. Do the compound, polish, glaze, wax, sealer, whatever.... just make sure you do it all before moving on. Just the hood can AND WILL take all freaking day. Doing it by hand to later apply a glaze and wax, sure... it can be done (although I would NEVER risk the damage to my *new* vehicle, and to quote CarMomma, "He's going to mess up his car"). But trying to prep an entire vehicle for a coating..... not on your life. :eek:

End of the day, time = money and money = results. Spending 8 hours a day for 2 weeks to *try* and do by hand what you could easily do in 2 days by machine is a costly endeavor to say the least. Not to mention the results one way versus the other are light years apart (to say the least) and money well spent, well spent indeed. :dblthumb2:

[rebanee]

I really fail to understand, even comprehend how one would do a 5-step paint correction on anything, much less a brand new CRV by hand. That is just insane, imho. :dunno:

That out of the way; the OP mentioned using (pretty much) all OTC products. That'd rule out Megs 151 (which is a GREAT choice btw), but NOT what I'd suggest putting on UNDERNEATH A COATING.

Moving back to Megs UC & UP would be fine though. :)

Also, you would indeed want to do a alcohol wipe down, (but at stronger than 10%). This is where Eraser would come in handy, and a single bottle is WAY MORE than enough. :props: I however have started using Megs 114 with alcohol added to a 20% (or better) solution.

Speaking of wash alternatives, Megs 114 is a FANTASTIC product, no waxes added, just a great cleaning, clear wiping, leaves nothing behind, rinseless wash.

Got sidetracked though.
I just cannot recommend doing all that work by hand. Not when you can pick up a Harbor Freight buffer, or even the GG6. There are a ton of discount codes out there for Advance Auto Parts, (up to $40 off $100 or 30% of anything... site wide) and they sell both the 3" and 6" unit. Combine the GG6 with a 5" backing plate and 4 orange, 4 white, 2 blue & 2 black pads and you'll be able to do anything. Is it a bit to spend going in? Well yes it is! But keep in mind that the investment is not just for THAT vehicle, it's for everything you own (both now and in the future). That is literally a 10 to 20 year investment.:dblthumb2:

Not saying it CAN'T be done, just that you'll likely hate yourself, wear your fingers to the bone, and despise that new CRV by the time it's done. :rolleyes:

Now, doing a paint correction (as little as can be done by hand) may be somewhat possible, but nowhere NEAR optimal. Would it be good enough to say follow with a hand applied glaze, then wax? Sure! (In a perfect world perhaps.) Just think that the glaze will be needed to fill in the swirls and scratches that 1; didn't get repaired, and 2; will end up with more of from the hand process along the way.

Moving on to cQuartz. This would be a perfect time to apply it, when - the - vehicle - is - new. However; and more importantly..... there is NEVER a situation where I would tell an owner to apply cQuartz (or any other coating) over paint that hasn't been perfectly corrected. EVER! Remember that a coating doesn't "cover up", it simply locks in whatever imperfections that are already there. The application of a coating is meant to protect, as much as possible, and as long as possible.... CORRECTED paint. Not just shiny paint, not 'just' hand rubbed paint, not waxed, not polymer protected, but machine - corrected - paint. ;)

I had a body shop manager call me a while back, asking what the price of a coating was. That's like asking what color blue is the sky in the east I told him. Same as saying you can write one estimate to repair every vehicle that comes in the shop. Now had he said "What is the up-charge for a coating?" I could have answered that. That part is simple. But the prep is what makes a coating do what it does. And imho, the ONLY way a coating should be applied is AFTER proper prep. That is when I told him that a coating could run from $595 to $2595, all depends on the prep.

Moving on;
The suggestions thus far, 1 bar of clay, staying out of the sun, etc. are spot on. Just as the fact that you will never wear through your clear coat by hand polishing! Unless you take 180 grit sandpaper and/or are trying with all your might to destroy it, you'll not break through the clear. ;)

By the same standards, you'll not get it swirl free either. Even if it's known to be "soft" (which makes it easier to correct... to a degree) as hand application of all the appropriate compounds, polishes, glazes, sealants, etc. will take a plethora of different pads. Don't expect to just grab a hand full of yellow OTC foam applicator pads and end up with results that are going to be what you want, much less what various Lake Country pads will provide.

You also want to invest in a dozen decent microfiber towels. Microfiber Tech has excellent prices on 360 GSM (regular thread) and 400 GSM (ultra-fine thread) units that will not harm that Honda's paint. Also the suggestion that you start, ONE AREA AT A TIME could not be more helpful. When doing by hand you want to do very small areas, do them start to finish, and DO NOT move to another area/panel before the first one is finished. Do the compound, polish, glaze, wax, sealer, whatever.... just make sure you do it all before moving on. Just the hood can AND WILL take all freaking day. Doing it by hand to later apply a glaze and wax, sure... it can be done (although I would NEVER risk the damage to my *new* vehicle, and to quote CarMomma, "He's going to mess up his car"). But trying to prep an entire vehicle for a coating..... not on your life. :eek:

End of the day, time = money and money = results. Spending 8 hours a day for 2 weeks to *try* and do by hand what you could easily do in 2 days by machine is a costly endeavor to say the least. Not to mention the results one way versus the other are light years apart (to say the least) and money well spent, well spent indeed. :dblthumb2:


Hello Cardaddy, thank you fo r your reply. I'm just a beginner doing things by himself, so please help me out. I just read on a Meguair's forum about 5-step process so I thought that is the correct way. Reading all these steps and all the products and reviews about them that are available are just so overwhelming at the start but I guess I'm getting the hang out of it. So what is your recommendation for me regarding the process?

I see your point about getting an orbital polisher but my first problem is that I don't own a garage and I don't own the place that I live in. I will also be working at night or early morning for cooler temperature so using an orbiter might wake up some people. It's ok for me to put "passion" and time on removing swirls. Thank you for your concern.

May I ask what damage I may bring to my car's coat if I remove swirls and scratches by hand?

[cardaddy]

Hello Cardaddy, thank you fo r your reply. I'm just a beginner doing things by himself, so please help me out. I just read on a Meguair's forum about 5-step process so I thought that is the correct way. Reading all these steps and all the products and reviews about them that are available are just so overwhelming at the start but I guess I'm getting the hang out of it. So what is your recommendation for me regarding the process?

I see your point about getting an orbital polisher but my first problem is that I don't own a garage and I don't own the place that I live in. I will also be working at night or early morning for cooler temperature so using an orbiter might wake up some people. It's ok for me to put "passion" and time on removing swirls. Thank you for your concern.

May I ask what damage I may bring to my car's coat if I remove swirls and scratches by hand?

Ahhh... I see... (sorry) the Meguiar's 5-step process you're talking about.

Is this the....


Wash
Clean/Protect
Polish
Protect
Maintain

If so, then that's where most here would think of step THREE being broken down into 1, 2, 3, 4 or more separate steps in and of it's own.

For instance, you'll often see a guy (or perhaps Monica aka/DetailKitty) ;) talk about a 1-step buffing process, or a 2-step, or 3-step, or sometimes even a .5 step added to any of the steps.

This is where they'll/we'll be talking about how many BUFFING steps we are taking. Obviously, Step-1 is compounding. Step-2 will be lighter compounding, or polishing. Step-3 will be even lighter. When you add the .5 step is where you start with a AIO type product with a cutting pad and move to a lighter cut, even a finishing pad with that same product. Some provide better finishing than others, and with that.... you can forego moving to the finishing polish. (Some times, with SOME paints.)

Owning a garage isn't totally necessary to do paint correction. Many, MANY detailers are mobile, and work at clients homes each and every day. I am lucky and fortunate that we are able to both work from our home, AND that I don't *need* to (or want to) work every day. Doesn't hurt that I can pump out nice cold AC from the house either. ;) I think I'd get seriously burned out with the fun of detailing should it turn into a daily grind though. OTOH, it IS one of the greatest flexibility workouts for a job out there! :props:

Working without a garage is certainly possible, certainly indeed. The only real caveat you'll have is trying to chase the shade. It's impossible to do this in full sunlight, (with almost ALL products out there). :eek: Even washing in the sun.... just ain't gonna' happen. ;) This is where (if you want to do it at any regular interval) you'd want to buy a portable pop-up canopy. They are stupidly expensive though unless you can justify using them a lot, (a decent one ON SALE can run $175 and up). :eek: I honestly WISH I had one, but again, with an oversized 3 car garage, plus plenty of shade trees we get by just fine.:dunno:

Honestly, working in the mornings is PERFECT. Not so much in the evenings (as you don't have the light that you need) but the evenings before sunset are just as good, albeit warmer. :rolleyes: Between you and me (like nobody else is here :D) if your neighbors have a problem with you running a DA for a few hours I'd tell them to take a friggin' hike! There is absolutely no noise ordinance that'd preclude you from polishing your own vehicle in your own driveway, (renting or not). Besides that.... most people are gone to work in the mornings. :D (Soccer moms not included... but they don't count.) :laughing: Besides.... what you'll find is that a lot of your neighbors (the ones that care about their vehicles) once they see you out there with a machine polishing, and they see the results, as well as your continuing education of both yourself, the products and processes involved, and PASSING whatever information on to them.... they'll end up asking you if you'd do their vehicles as well. THAT is the ultimate compliment! :dblthumb2:

The first step would of course be picking up a buffer, a REAL buffer. Either the Harbor Freight (haven't used one), Porter Cable, or the Griot's Garage (has a lifetime warranty and WELL worth the price). But the most important part is the pads, yes the PADS!!! Don't get trapped by falling into the "package deal" and just getting half a dozen, and doing them all in different colors either. That's a HUGE mistake! As I mentioned earlier, 4 orange, 4 white, 2 blue, 2 black would be the bare minimum. In fact, if you move to the CCS pads, (that I like as well)... (rather than the flat ones, although I use both, plus hybrid pads, and constant pressure pads) the CCS pads have additional colors available. For instance... between white and blue the CCS line offers green. The green pads say they have more cut than either blue or black, but are VERY soft. Mike Phillips has mentioned in another thread how a pad that a member was using didn't have enough structure (firmness) to provide the correction he was looking for, which is why I specifically mentioned the green CCS pad because THAT SUCKER is SOFT! :laughing: (But it does cut, I know that to be very true indeed.) ;)

Moreover, the white pad(s) may be the ones you want to stock up on more than any others. Why? Because they can do more work, both compounding and polish... than any other pad in your arsenal. If I had to live with ONLY half a dozen pads I'd probably have 4 white, 1 blue and 1 black. (Or maybe 2 blue or black.)

On the;

May I ask what damage I may bring to my car's coat if I remove swirls and scratches by hand?

Perhaps it isn't as much "damage" in the permanent sense as it is that you'll likely not end up with any real correction WHAT-SO-EVER. Not to mention just a total waste of time and resources. And YES, it is possible to try so hard trying to get swirls out by hand that all you do is add even more swirls. Remember, that the only true way to remove swirls is leveling of the paint. And to do that you need literally tens of thousands of micro-movements with micro-abrasives in order for that to happen. Thinking that the little yellow round tapered, 6 to a bag type wax applicators are going to work is also a misconception. This is where you'd want to buy up a bunch of 4" buffer pads, in all the aforementioned colors to work through the process. They come in pretty much all the colors. For this, (by hand) I'd use ONLY the CCS pads. Might want to look up a pad holder as well (there are plenty out there with Velcro fasteners and provide a nice handle grip).

Work small areas, NO MORE than 12" square at a time. No matter if working by machine or hand you still have to do test spots. Without them you have no measure as to what works and what doesn't (to achieve the results you are looking for).

For each and every compound you need to pick a pad and compound combo first. Then work through how many minutes you worked each test spot. How long, how hard, (arm pressure) how fast (arm speed) how many different direction changes, etc. etc. etc.

I'd suggest taping off half a dozen 12" squares (or even 8" squares) and do your test spots. Same pad, different compound. Different pad same compound. More arm pressure. Less arm pressure. But you need one "constant" in that you always go left to right 50 times, up and down 50 times, diagonal L/R, R/L, Bottom/Top, Top/Bottom etc. Also, the exact same amount of time, or at least the same amount of strokes.

This way you'll know what pad/compound combo gave you the best results! :D

This is the same thing no matter if you're doing it by hand or with a machine btw. ;) By machine I often suggest no more than 4~5 section passes, just changing up the arm pressure/arm speed and pad/compound selection. Keep in mind that 4~5 section passes isn't enough to properly work through the process with most products, (especially DAT based products as they need to break down and move into the polishing stage) but it tells you how well the cutting/correction is going with the SAME amount of input no matter the product(s) and pads used. You can always then (after picking out which one works for your needs) go back and work a given product through the entire process.

Dinner calling..... later dude.