Meguiar's D302 causing swirls??

[Matt@Revive]

i was polishing a friends car this weekend to remove some light spider weds and swirls. after washing, claying, i did my first test spot using a PC 7424, a black foam finishing pad and Meguair's D302 polish. when i wiped the section clean the test spot was full of swirls and pigtails. i cleaned the section with 50/50 IPA and fit a brand new black pad and tried again only to find there were more swirls and pigtails added after the second try.

am i polishing too light, not allowing the polish to break down? or is there something wrong with the paint on the car?

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/ridenaked600/Mobile%20Uploads/20140728_171939.jpg (http://s995.photobucket.com/user/ridenaked600/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140728_171939.jpg.html)

[cardaddy]

Hmmmm.... that's a new one with D302 (for me at least). Considering it's a fairly light polish. :dunno:

Are both those pads new?
And are they Lake Country black foam? (Knowing others have the same color, yet they provide more cut than Lake Country black does.)
Were they somehow used before for something with more cut in it? (That might not have been washed out completely.)

As for polishing too light, nope I doubt that. Generally you'll see those results when polishing too heavy (IE too much arm weight).

On another note; I'd not suggest a 50% IPA solution, that's a bit harsh. FWIW I've had great results lately using Meguiar's D114 with a 20% solution (as a substitute for Eraser).

If you'd like a really easy IPA dilution calculator, try this one (http://homedistiller.org/calcs/dilute). It's totally plug-n-play, and for distilled spirits, but the calculation is the same. ;)

[Matt@Revive]

i was a Shurhold black pad, the first on had been used with M205, the second was new. i also tried it with a Meguiar's MF finishing pad with the same result.

[The Guz]

I am thinking it's the pad since D302 is a pure polish that has a very low cut. The cutting ability according to Michael Stoops is well under M205.

How are you priming your pads?

[hernandez.art13]

Residue comes to mind.

Check this out:

Matt's 5.0 Heater with Jason Rose & Kevin Brown | ammo hydrate, larry kosilla, detailing for profit, ammo nyc car products | AMMO NYC Podcast (http://shoutengine.com/AMMONYC/matts-50-heater-with-jason-rose-kevin-brown-1784)

[hernandez.art13]

Zoomed it in for you.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/29/uduqadu9.jpg

Also, I've seen these pigtails before but it was usually from DA sanding, because of residue build up on the sanding disc. Which in turn started to create "pigtails"

But seems odd to me that this happened from the polishing stage of the job.

I wonder if something got stuck on the pad and starting scratching the paint and created pigtails.

I went back and thought maybe to switch to a new pad, but you said you did that.

Maybe you should have clayed more. Meaning whatever if anything got left behind on the paint that claying didn't remove. Could have possibly become abrasive and created the pigtails.

The baggie test is a good strategy to check if the paint is thoroughly prepped prior to polishing.

I'd recommend figuring out what is going on here. Prep, product, machine, technique, etc... and dialing in your process in that area. (Test spot) then replicating it throughout the car.

Also, I've found that doing test spots are a huge time saver. However, sometimes it is a great idea to check your work as your working on the car.

Some parts of cars have different paint systems in different areas throughout the car.

Just trying to help. :props:

[Mike Phillips]

Pigtails are scratches put into the paint from machine wet sanding.

What I see is called DA Haze or some call it micro-marring or Tick Marks. All three words mean the same thing and it's the scratch pattern left in the paint when using a dual action polisher. It can be caused by the pad or the abrasives in the product or both.

I'd rule out the foam pad since you say it's a black finishing pad, which would be the right pad to "try" with D302. D302 is formulated for Meguiar's DA Microfiber Correction System and specifically for their microfiber finishing pad.

I've tested all these product on black paint and the D302 can cause micro-marring when used with a soft foam finishing pad on soft paint.

Assuming the pad is clean, the paint is clean and you did everything else right, the last potential option would be soft paint.

Do you have any other dedicated fine cut polishes?


D302 is a polish/wax, that's kind of like a cleaner/wax. A dedicated polish is a product that doesn't include any protection ingredients, it's sole purpose is to abrade the paint.

Also, is this a repaint?


:dunno:

[Setec Astronomy]

D302 is a polish/wax, that's kind of like a cleaner/wax.

Mike, maybe I'm mixed up, but I thought that D302 was a finishing polish without "wax", and that D301 was the Finishing Wax.



I've tested all these product on black paint and the D302 can cause micro-marring when used with a soft foam finishing pad on soft paint.

Wow, even if you meant D301, that's surprising to me. Although they did say that D300/D301 was for factory paint.

[Mike Phillips]

Mike, maybe I'm mixed up, but I thought that D302 was a finishing polish without "wax", and that D301 was the Finishing Wax.



You got me Mike.... you're correct and my mistake, I was thinking of D301 which is a polish/wax.

The D302 is a dedicated polish.

Meguiars D30216 DA Microfiber Polish (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-da-microfiber-polish.html)

I think the time stamp of my post is 7:11am as in I just arrived to work and read this thread and then posted so it could be the first cup of coffee hasn't fully engaged the brain.

I practice really hard not to make mistakes especially simple mistakes like this one but luckily with almost 50,000 posts I think it's safe to say my mistakes are far and few between.






Wow, even if you meant D301, that's surprising to me. Although they did say that D300/D301 was for factory paint.




Actually, this product was brought out specifically to address the DA Haze issue with softer paints that people were running into when using just the D300 and D301 with the microfiber pads.

From the linked-to page above....




Meguiars DA Microfiber Polish is designed to effectively remove compounding haze that is often associated with DA polishers on softer paint systems.

Formulated using an advanced blend of polishing oils and micro-fine abrasives, Meguiars DA Microfiber Polish provides complete paint refinement for a defect free finish.

Meguiars DA Microfiber Polish is the perfect intermediate step between compound and wax. Use Meguiars DA Microfiber Polish with a Meguiars DA Microfiber Finishing Disc on your DA polisher.




I have not tested the D302 with foam on black paint but I have the D301 with LC black foam finishing pads on black paint and did find a micro-marring issue on my demo panels which are repaints and thus softer than a factory baked-on finish.

Here's the bigger picture... if the OP is seeing micro-marring or DA Haze using D302 with a soft foam pad on his car's paint then unless there's something else going on this would indicate really soft paint.

It's times like this that I wish I could be there to do some testing myself to see what's going on.

A real fast way to troubleshoot this would be to use a different polish with a foam pad and buff a section of the hazed area to see if a different polish or a different type of abrasive technology could remove the haze.

For example a fine cut polish from Menzerna?


:)

[Setec Astronomy]

I think the time stamp of my post is 7:11am as in I just arrived to work and read this thread and then posted so it could be the first cup of coffee hasn't fully engaged the brain.

I practice really hard not to make mistakes especially simple mistakes like this one but luckily with almost 50,000 posts I think it's safe to say my mistakes are far and few between.

No need to explain, I was simply following this thread and then it started to get a little confusing!


Actually, this product (D302) was brought out specifically to address the DA Haze issue with softer paints that people were running into when using just the D300 and D301 with the microfiber pads.

I have not tested the D302 with foam on black paint but I have the D301 with LC black foam finishing pads on black paint and did find a micro-marring issue on my demo panels which are repaints and thus softer than a factory baked-on finish.

Ah, interesting, now I understand.

[Hazcat]

I'd like to see some measurements on that paint. Do you know if it's been polished before? How many times? How old is the car? Is it outside 24/7?

[Mike Phillips]

i was polishing a friends car this weekend to remove some light spider webs and swirls.



Not that it's a huge deal but what type of car is it you're working on and has it ever been repainted?

The reason why I ask is because if there was previous damage in the way of DA Haze or Pigtails, and the paint was neglected, it could be the Meguiar's polishes are restoring clarity to the clearcoat and making the pre-existing paint defects show up easily to your eyes.

That's what a quality polish does, it restores clarity to the clearcoat.

If the defects are deep however and instead of the paint being soft but is in fact HARD then it could be you simply need to use a more aggressive product and pad to remove the defects as the light cutting polishes are only revealing the defects.

Just a guess....




Just to double check...

You're positive there were no signs of either DA Haze or Pigtails, (from someone machine sanding), before you started?







i was a Shurhold black pad, the first on had been used with M205, the second was new.


i also tried it with a Meguiar's MF finishing pad with the same result.




If M205 and D302 are both causing the DA Haze to the paint on this car and no other factors are involved then it sounds like uber soft paint?


Just for fun, take a read-through my DA Troubleshooting Guide and see if you're making any of the common mistakes....

DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/37769-da-polisher-trouble-shooting-guide.html)


When you're first starting out machine polishing and learning to use a DA Polisher it's common to have questions about your results and your results are directly tied to your technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems,


1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.

2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.

3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.

4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.

5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.

6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.

7. Using too much product or using too little product.

8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Shrink the size of your work area down. You can't tackle to large of an area at one time. The average size work area should be around 20" by 20". Most generic recommendations say to work an area 2' by 2' but for the correction step, that's too large. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot. The harder the paint the smaller the area you want to work.


2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's easy and actually natural for most people new to machine polishing to move the polisher quickly over the paint but that's the wrong technique. One reason I think people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they hear the sound of the motor spinning fast and this has psychological effect which causes them to match their arm movement to the perceived fast speed of the polisher's motor.

Another reason people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they think like this,

"If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster"

But it doesn't work that way. Anytime you're trying to remove swirls, scratches, water spots or oxidation using a DA Polisher you need to move the polisher s-l-o-w-l-y over the paint.



3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting but this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad oscillating and rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the abrasives, the pad aggressiveness, and the downward pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches.

Removing below surface defects is a leveling process where you need the abrasives to take little bites out of the paint and to get the abrasives to take these little bites with a tool that uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23995-free-floating-spindle-assembly-story-behind-story.html) you need all of the above factors working for you including a high speed setting.



4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much downward pressure to the polisher and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.



5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.
If you push too hard you will slow down the rotating movement of the pad and the abrasives won't be effectively worked against the paint. You need to apply firm pressure to engage the abrasives against the paint but no so much that the pad is barely rotating. This is where it's a good idea to use a permanent black marker to make a mark on the back of your backing plate so your eyes can easily see if the pad is rotating or not and this will help you to adjust your downward pressure accordingly.

Correct technique means finding a balance of applying enough downward pressure to remove defects but not too much downward pressure as to stop the rotating movement of the pad.

This balance is affected by a lot of factors like the lubricity of the product you're using, some compounds and polishes provide more lubrication than others and this makes it easier to maintain pad rotation under pressure.

Another factor that can affect pad rotation are raised body lines, edges and curved surfaces as anytime you have uneven pressure on just a portion of the face of the pad it can slow or stop pad rotation. This is where experience comes into play and experience comes from time spent behind the polisher.



6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one edge of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease abrading ability.



7. Using too much product or using too little product.
Too much product hyper-lubricates the surface and the result is that abrasives won't effectively bite into the paint but instead will tend to skim over the surface. Overusing product will also accelerate pad saturation as well increase the potential for slinging splatter onto adjacent panels.

Too little product will means too little lubrication and this can interfere with pad rotation.

Again there needs to be a balance between too much product and too little product and finding this balance comes from reading articles like this one, watching videos an most important, going out into the garage and putting in time behind the polisher and as you're buffing with specific product and pad combinations, pay attention to pad rotation.



8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Most people simply don't clean their pad often enough to maximize the effectiveness of their DA Polisher. Anytime you're abrading the paint you have two things building up on the face of your buffing pad,

Removed paint


Spent product

As these to things build up on the face of the pad they become gummy and this has a negative affect on pad rotating plus makes wiping the leftover residue on the paint more difficult. To maintain good pad rotation you want to clean your pad often and always wipe-off any leftover product residue off the paint after working a section. Never add fresh product to your pad and work a section that still has leftover product residue on it.


:xyxthumbs:

[Matt@Revive]

the car i am working on is a 1991 Nissan Skyline, it was repainted over a year ago (salty air killed the paint after sitting in port for almost 6 months). so soft paint was my first thought.

there is marring in the paint from the body shop (one of the reasons i was polishing it for him)

i did 2 test spots, about 20"x20"
One on the hood (D302 on black foam, 4 section passed on 5 w/ moderate pressure. then repeated with a fresh black pad),
The other on the roof (D302 on a black foam pad fully primmed with 2 additional dots on polish, 4 section passes on 5 w/ moderate pressure. repeated with a brand new MF finishing pad)

both came out the same

i was afraid to get more aggressive before i asked around. i have M105/205, as well as Mirror glaze #1,2,3,9 i could try.

[The Guz]

Do you have any other polishes? There was actually a member on meguiars online that experienced something similar with D302 on a honda with soft paint and he ended up going with ultimate polish on a black foam finishing pad.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Not sure how they claim D302 can finish well on soft paint with a MF pad. Any polish you use with a *microfiber pad* on *soft* paint will marr the surface. JMO.