How often should you polish a car?

[Thudpilotbmx]

I screwed up. A month ago Mike advised me to get Wolfgang Uber Compound 3.0 to remove some water spots on my 2010 dark blue Audi A4. Used that with LC CSS orange pad; Meguiars M205 (LC CSS white pad) and Meguiars Black Wax. It LOOKED awesome.

Went to a friends and left the car outside for 2 days. It rained both days and then got back up to 90+ degrees. Now the horizontal surfaces are spotted.

Questions:
1) knowing how thin the clear coat is, how often should a car be polished. If the clear coat is the thickness of a post it note, I'm concerned.
2) not that I'm going to let this happen again but is there a better way to prevent rain spots? Should I just finish up the final process with a coat of carnuba wax?
3) Whats best at this point?

Thanks in advance! Feed back please

Mike #2

[jd920]

I screwed up. A month ago Mike advised me to get Wolfgang Uber Compound 3.0 to remove some water spots on my 2010 dark blue Audi A4. Used that with LC CSS orange pad; Meguiars M205 (LC CSS white pad) and Meguiars Black Wax. It LOOKED awesome.

Went to a friends and left the car outside for 2 days. It rained both days and then got back up to 90+ degrees. Now the horizontal surfaces are spotted.

Questions:
1) knowing how thin the clear coat is, how often should a car be polished. If the clear coat is the thickness of a post it note, I'm concerned.
2) not that I'm going to let this happen again but is there a better way to prevent rain spots? Should I just finish up the final process with a coat of carnuba wax?
3) Whats best at this point?

Thanks in advance! Feed back please

Mike #2

1. Any abrasion to the surface is going to remove clear coat. With that being said, polishing with remove microns off the thickness of the clear so it would be much safer than compounding. A good rule of thumb I tend to polish once a year and keep the clear maintained by waxing monthly and claying every two months.

2. The best way to prevent water spots is to prevent the vehicle from getting wet and then being exposed to hear to allow the water to dry and leave the mineral deposits from the water, but that is not always optimal. For extra protection, I would put a sealant under the layer of carnauba wax like meguiars ultimate wax which should help reduce and prevent serious water spotting.

3. Based on how long the water spots have been set on your car, you should be able to just use a quick detailer or a wash to remove the water spots. The best time to prevent serous damage is to remove the water spots as soon as you see them.

Go on YouTube and search ammonyc and look for his video where he shows how professionals wetsand and he uses a paint depth to show you exactly how much on average wetsanding, compounding, and polishing removes from the clear after each set.

Hope this helps.

[Andr3wilson]

Well understanding factory clear coats are thin, unless there was any prior sanding or super aggressive levelling, removing clear to a danger level with proper compounding is really difficult.

Typical aggressive compounding (heaviest cut and pad) will remove maybe a micron or two of paint. Typically it's not enough to produce a change on a paint gauge.

In my experience I have never even come close to punching through clear with compound.

Burning thru with a rotary is another topic and completely different to compounding through.

So my approach would be mindful and cautious - but not afraid. Proper maintenance means less compounding in the future!

Also adding any form of protection from a wax, sealant or coating will greatly reduce the chance of water spotting.

Also try using Carpro Spotless. That will REALLY help you out! :)

[Docpeanut]

Try carpro spotless on the water spots before polishing

[swanicyouth]

I guess it depends on your area and your rain composition - but most of the time, rain won't cause durable water spots. Since rain comes from the sky, and there are no rocks in the sky (or dirt) - rain water has little (if any) mineral content.

Mineral content (especially calcium carbonate) is the primary cause of durable water spots. Since rain lacks this - it's usually not an issue. Sodium Chloride water spots are not as aggressive or as difficult to remove (topical) as the previously caused spots.

However, rain can be acidic and can contain other environmental pollutants. These can cause "water spots", topical or etched into the clear coat. This is most noticeable on a darker car.

The best thing to do is simple. Wash the car frequently and most spots will remain topical and simply wipe off. But, I'm assuming you have tried this.

My plan of attack would be least to most aggressive method:

1. CarPro Spotless

2. Clay

3. Paint cleaner via MF hand pad or DA foam polishing pad.

4. Poor Boys Pro Polish ( or similar pure polish) via above methods

5. Polish (abrasive)

6. Compound

7. Wet sand

[EVOlved]

Try carpro spotless on the water spots before polishing

:iagree: and have you even washed it? If you haven't obviously get to that now!! If you have good protection on the car water spots can be just in the protective layer.

[jamesboyy]

For most vehicle once every year(around spring time) though if its a classic or your pride possession then I would wait until I place it into a garage then go for a 90 to 95 percent correction

[Thudpilotbmx]

Yes, I washed it AND Clayed it. And it looks sad close up...

[hernandez.art13]

would it make sense to say "Let the paint show you when it needs to be polished again" That's the way I see it.

[Hazcat]

Try Carpro spotless if it looks good except for the water spots. You may have some marring from the clay that needs to be polished. You could also give an AIO a try such as XMT 360 or Klasse AIO.

[Mike Phillips]

I screwed up. A month ago Mike advised me to get Wolfgang Uber Compound 3.0 to remove some water spots on my 2010 dark blue Audi A4. Used that with LC CSS orange pad; Meguiars M205 (LC CSS white pad) and Meguiars Black Wax.

It LOOKED awesome.




I like reading the above part... :xyxthumbs:






Went to a friends and left the car outside for 2 days. It rained both days and then got back up to 90+ degrees. Now the horizontal surfaces are spotted.



The first thing I always wonder when this happens is...

Man... what's in the water?

When it comes to rain water, what's "in" the water could be air borne pollution, industrial fallout, etc that the rain captures as it passes through polluted sky?

Or dust/dirt on the car with something corrosive in it that dissolves into the rain water?

I don't know but it's hard to think that pure rain water from a cloud that can be so corrosive that it will etch or "eat" through the layer of wax and the etch or eat water spots or imprint rings in the paint.






Questions:
1) knowing how thin the clear coat is, how often should a car be polished. If the clear coat is the thickness of a post it note, I'm concerned.



The goal of course is after the initial polishing avoid things that cause damage and thus cause you to have to re-polish.

You can't stop Mother Nature though...






2) not that I'm going to let this happen again but is there a better way to prevent rain spots? Should I just finish up the final process with a coat of carnuba wax?



I think the Opti-Coat II coating is probably the best bet for total protection of the paint and cross your fingers.

Generally speaking if something in the water is corrosive enough to eat or etch a modern urethane clearcoat finish it's going to obliterate anything you or I pour out of a bottle or scoop out of a can and apply to it.






3) Whats best at this point?



Best?

"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done"


I'd try a fine cut polish and if that doesn't work then a medium cut polish. If neither of these approaches work then you're back to the Uber Compound.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

2. The best way to prevent water spots is to prevent the vehicle from getting wet



I agree. Hard to do if you have to park your car outside and where you live it rains.

I lived in the Mojave Desert for about 7 years and while it did rain we went through a lot of dry spells and that was nice, especially since I drove a convertible year around.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=79032







3. Based on how long the water spots have been set on your car, you should be able to just use a quick detailer or a wash to remove the water spots.



Sometimes this works... here's an example and these are WATER SPRINKLER Water Spots... that means City Water and it's usually the worst offender.

How To Remove Sprinkler Water Spots (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/31000-how-remove-sprinkler-water-spots.html)


How To Remove Sprinkler Water Spots using The Least Aggressive Method Approach

This is a nasty problem that usually happens after you've just washed and waxed your favorite ride... and unaware you've parked next to a sprinkler. Then when you return to your car....

Sprinkler Water Spots!
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM001.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM002.jpg


Luckily they're only on half the car...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM003.jpg


The question is, are they Type I or Type II Water Spots? Let's hope they're Type I and will wipe-off or wash off, if they're Type II Water Spots we'll have to use some type of abrasive compound or polish to level the paint surface in order to remove the spots.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM006.jpg



We've pulled the Mercedes-Benz into our studio where we can work out of direct sunlight on a cool surface.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM008.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM009.jpg


The terms Hard Water or Hard Water Spots are commonly used to describe these types of spots on the surface of the paint. What's actually making up the spots are minerals and other substances dissolved in the water. After the water evaporates off the paint, the minerals, (the components referred to with the word hard in the terms Hard Water or Hard Water Spots), remain behind.

Our hope is that these spots are simply a topical defect and not a sub-surface or below surface defect. You will find out by simply washing and drying the car or wiping the panels clean using a clean, soft microfiber towel.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM010.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM011.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM012.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM013.jpg



When following the approach of using the least aggressive product to get the job done, the first thing you want to do is to see if you can either wipe the sprinkler water spots off or wash the sprinkler water spots off. Since this car was recently washed and waxed and it's kept inside a garage when not being driven, we're going to try to wipe them off using a spray detailer with a clean, plush microfiber towel.


When removing fresh water spots, use your spray detailer heavy, or wet. Using a product heavy or wet means using extra product, more than you might normally use. The reason for his is you want lots of lubrication on the surface to help prevent any potential scratching or marring of the finish as you're wiping.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM014.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM015.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM016.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM017.jpg



http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM018.jpg


Remember, always fold your microfiber towels 4 ways to give you 8 wiping sides with plenty of cushion to spread out the pressure from your hand and wipe the paint gently.

Start out by spreading the spray detailer around to one section and then flip or fold your microfiber towel to a fresh or clean portion to remove the residue and buff to a dry, high shine.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM019.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM022.jpg


Luck is with us... the paint is safe as the Sprinkler Water Spots did not etching into the paint and using plenty of spray detailer and a clean plush microfiber towel left a scratch-free finish.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM023.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM024.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsM025.jpg






The best time to prevent serous damage is to remove the water spots as soon as you see them.



Good advice, same goes for Bug Splatter... always keep an emergency kit in your car.


How To Build Your Own Emergency Car Care Kit (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/23392-how-build-your-own-emergency-car-care-kit.html)







Go on YouTube and search ammonyc and look for his video where he shows how professionals wetsand and he uses a paint depth to show you exactly how much on average wetsanding, compounding, and polishing removes from the clear after each set.

Hope this helps.


While not a video, I documented this by taking paint thickness readings after each step and the results were...

After sanding, compounding and polishing I remove approximately .5 mils and this was a factory GM clearcoat.


See the complete article here, something I did back in 2009

Removing Orange Peel & Sanding Marks with the Griot's ROP and the Wolfgang Twins (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/21463-removing-sanding-marks-griot-s-rop-wolfgang-twins.html)


Below are just a FEW pictures from the entire write-up which is probably one of the most complicated projects and write-ups I've ever undertaken.


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1001.jpg



Next, use plenty of water from a clean source to lubricate the surface while sanding. Add a little soap, (a few drops is all that's needed, don't go crazy with the soap), and as you sand, continually spray water to the section you're sanding as this will make each stroke easier. Seriously, spray water onto the surface after every other stroke or two you'll find the paper will cut a lot smoother.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1029.jpg


Hold the backing pad canted, or at an angle, see how the tip of the paper-wrapped backing pad is leading as I move my hand forward. Don't hold the pad squared-up as you sand because you'll tend to cut deeper ruts if you sand with the pad in perfect perpendicular alignment in the direction of your strokes.


Right - Hold backing pad at a little bit of an angle while making front to back strokes.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1030.jpg


After wiping the surface clean, I placed the 3M Painter's Tape Grid System back onto the panel as best as I could and then made my marks using the Foam Equalizer and then used the PosiTest PTG to take measurements and record them.


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1047.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1048.jpg


In this shot I'm taking the last measurement in Location C and then recording it.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1049.jpg


The PosiTest Paint Thickness Gage is easy to read...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1050.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1051.jpg




Crunching the numbers, here's the results...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/wetsandingstatistics.jpg


Here's a graph showing the very small amount of paint removed during each procedure.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/WetSandingExperiment11091.jpg


Most car manufactures say that .5 mils can be removed safely from a factory finish. During this entire process my goal was to approach the sanding and buffing just like I would if I were really sanding down the factory finish on a customer's car.

I let the PosiTest Paint Thickness Gage tell its own story as I measured after each step as accurately as possible.

From the measurements taken, it looks like the process in totality removed approximately .5 mils of film-build. This is at the safety margin.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Yes, I washed it AND Clayed it. And it looks sad close up...


Chances are good what you're seeing are what I call Imprint Rings. These will be very shallow etchings following the outline of where the water drops formed and then dried.

My guess is also that a medium cut polish like the Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover with probably a foam polishing pad but perhaps you'll need a foam cutting pad, will be more than enough to remove these imprint rings.



Imprint Rings
These water spots look like they're established water spots, that is, every time it rains, or a sprinkler goes off, the water pools in the same place giving any corrosive substances repeated opportunity to etch into the paint.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsS003.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsS004.jpg


Visually, I can tell the paint is likely etched in this instance but I won't know till I get the surface clean. The first step is to wash or wipe the finish, in this instance I'm going to repeat wiping process I used on the Mercedes-Benz with a spray detailer.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsS007.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/SprinklerSpotsS008.jpg


After wiping the paint clean, there are water spot imprints remaining in the paint.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/WaterSpotImprints01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/WaterSpotImprints02.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/991/WaterSpotImprints03.jpg


:xyxthumbs:

[swanicyouth]

^ Mike, that is awesome info and documentation. The interesting thing is how hardly any paint is removed after the 2000 grit wet sanding (about 0.2 mils ~ 1/2 micron)

[Mike Phillips]

^ Mike, that is awesome info and documentation. The interesting thing is how hardly any paint is removed after the 2000 grit wet sanding (about 0.2 mils ~ 1/2 micron)


I agree.

Joe Fernandez did something similar a few years ago, not sure where the article is located...


:)