definitive answer on process for properly applying sealants for best bonding

[TurboToys]

of course you could throw a sealant or wax or anything, and it will be super shiny for the first few days, but how long will it last without being applied properly?

i've run into a conundrum of sorts in my head, thinking about my early times in doing detailing related things, and trying to super strong ipa dilutions which i believe (after a lot of research) to be bad for the paint anyway now, and stick to much less concentrations like 10%.


after enough reading you too would find yourself wondering things about what is good and what is bad. the consistency of threads popping up about stripping LSPs and all of the posters who swear by this and that, i even purchased some CG CW+G hoping it would readily strip any waxes left on the surface, because i could then reapply a sealant over the top of whatever was left of my last sealant and be done with it.

but then i remembered that it has a G in the name. Citrus Was And Gloss. this pretty much seals the deal for me that if i plan to use a sealant after the wash then this is not my go to soap. as it leaves a layer of gloss and surfactants behind that are going to interfere with the bond i want to get so i don't have to reapply for another 6 months (weather depending).

I've gone through looking at possible polishes and recommendations on polishes that could be used to give a clean working surface, and polishing seems to be the only real clear cut way to get a clean and clear surface for applying a sealant for proper bonding (so they claim on the labels). but what about all of the oils left behind from the polishing, we have probably all been to that point where you think you got the panel perfect and then give it a quick wipe with an ipa solution and you see a horrible (or what looks horrible in your eyes) collection of fine swirls still in the paint, because they were filled by the oils of the polish.

one would say that after you completely polish the paint, you just give it a quick wipe with ipa to check it and make sure it's clear of oils, or you wash it one last time, but how can you be certain that the panel you are looking at has no oils or fillers left? do you as professionals or enthusiasts do a multi-stage wipedown with ipa and special cleaners before applying? do you pick a carsoap, which will have surfactants for lubrication, and do a final wash and re-apply that ultra thin millionth of an inch thick layer you just tried to get rid of because the soap says it doesn't have it, but actually does? will the layer of things you just put back on by using almost any car wash out there, hinder your sealant application that much?


so i'll pose these questions and see what everyone's definitive answers are as i've gone through many posts and articles on the topic. but can't seem to find out for certain what is really going on on the molecular level.

1. if you chemically strip your paint for a sealant, which requires bare paint (going by the general recommendation on most sealants), and do it with something like CG wash and gloss, is it just a placebo effect that all these people believe that the wash and gloss really does strip wax off because it says citrus? or is there something else at work here like using such a high concentration leaves behind a layer you don't really want that prevents beading (it is a very very concentrated soap btw).

2. if you use a glaze or m205 as suggest by mike phillips to help remove an lsp (in another thread on stripping), and you go to remove those oils left behind from the polishing process, what can you really use besides ipa at 10% to ensure that you really have no oils left on the paint.

3. Does anybody really trust doing a final wash on a car before applying an lsp, knowing that most car washes if not all have some kind of film that will get left behind, whether it beads or not?

4. how many people have simply just tried using something that was designed for removing waxes, like a paint prep product such as ppg dx330 (wax and grease remover), meant for prepping panels before doing the actualy paint job itself. i feel like we are all looking in places where the answer isn't found.


5. how safe do you feel when you go to apply your lsp sealant again, after having done a round of sealant with a wax on top only a month ago, the shine seems to be fading so it's time to do it again. but do you really know if your paint is prepped enough to just reapply, or is the reapplication of the sealant a crap shoot unless doing a full polish again to remove any remaining wax that could hinder the sealant application.


i know i'm not alone in asking these questions after reading so many threads on it. so maybe some people will have some good answers to questions that i feel were't touched on much, it seemed the topic was always steered towards what got the paint to the point of being "stripped", instead of if the paint was merely in an acceptable condition to apply product to it and have it last a decent amount of time. has anyone really tested whether a properly prepped panel and a panel with next to no prep besides wash and clay had any difference in durability?

[TurboToys]

this here is a good example of my conundrum.

a quick look at the blackfire product line, which i love a lot! (just got some crystal seal and it is awesome how easy it is to apply) and you find this.


BLACKFIRE Gloss Enhancing Polish is a non-abrasive polish, and glaze combination. It wets the surface to create the illusion of the paint being under water. BLACKFIRE Gloss Enhancing Polish helps hide minor swirls and scratches without removing any paint or clear coat. It "rounds-over" the leading edge of minor swirls which robs sunlight of a sharp edge to cause a reflection. While this visually reduces swirls, it does not remove them. This is a great product to use on a vehicle in good condition with very few swirls.

Gloss Enhancing Polish is designed for enthusiasts desiring the deepest, wettest gloss. When used under BLACKFIRE Wet Diamond All Finish Paint Protection, it's pure magic! The combination of Gloss Enhancing Polish and Wet Diamond creates a liquid-like wetness that looks like you could reach into the finish. This combination is especially stunning on black, red and dark colors but still shimmers on white, grey and silver finishes.

maybe their terminology is off? but being a glaze something will be left behind. so how could this possibly be used in combination with a sealant that bonds to paint itself and not a glaze product that doesn't bond to paint. without being cleaned off before the application process?



another one that i hear was supposed to be great at being a second to last step product the detailer coating prep polish.


1. Ensure surface is cool to the touch and out of direct sunlight.
2. Hand Application: Apply a dime-sized amount of product directly onto terry cloth or foam pad. Thoroughly work the product into the surface and remove residue with a microfiber towel.
3. Machine Application: Set polisher to a medium speed setting and apply a nickel-sized amount of product with a foam polishing pad. Thoroughly work the product into the surface and remove residue with a microfiber towel.

in both cases, the polish is applied and there have to be some kind of lubrication to these, and a residue is wiped off. but is the surface really clean of any residuals that could affect the sealant? or are the sealants actually much more forgiving than we take them to be when we read the instructions that tell us how the surface must be "surgically clean" before application.

[PiPUK]

The biggest issues is that the term 'sealant' can cover a huge variety of products. Most decent sealants will actually not be so sensitive to surface preparation, most decent sealants could perform reasonably well on a poorly prepared vehicle. The fundamental nature of traditional sealants is that they are extremely surface substantive - they should stick very easily. This is what sets them apart from waxes and glazes (which basically don't bond at all). The confusion comes with the newer types of sealants which are chemically sensitive - it is only these which should be sensitive. Of course, in most cases, a good prep. is likely to extend performance.

[Lost Highway]

My best guess is that the definitive answer is that there is no definitive answer.
In the case of sealants, if I'm concerned about maximizing longevity, I usually tend to follow the "it can't hurt and it might help" line of thinking and try to provide a clean surface. In my case that usually means a wipe down with CarPro Eraser. This has more to do with my having a a large stock of Eraser rather than a belief that it is the be all and end all of surface preps.
In my experience, Prima Amigo and CG EZ Creme don't seem to dramatically reduce the longevity of several commonly used sealants but this is not to say that they have no impact on durability/longevity.
With the proliferation of surface prep products for coatings all we really have to go by are manufacturer's marketing claims. U.S. MSDS requirements are fairly lax and don't give us much insight into what is in the product even if we are equipped to make some sense of the document. The E.U. MSDS seem to contain a bit more detail.
Perhaps PiPUK will indulge us with some broad generalizations about the effectiveness as cleaners, likelihood of leaving residues behind and paint safety of general classes of products, e.g. <30&#37; IPA (or ethanol) + surfactant (& colorant & scent) versus something like a generic paint shop surface prep grease/oils/silicone remover. I'd be curious as to any comments about 1-Methoxy-2-Propanol as a component particular. For those of you choosing to use products containing significant amounts of toluene, benzene, etc. the usual cautions about wearing a well fitted respirator with the appropriate cartridge and working in a well ventilated place should apply.
To broadly generalize my level of trust in detailing product companies is based to a significant degree on how much obviously BS marketing they engage in and how responsive they are to technical questions. I tend to trust Optimum and Duragloss at least slightly more than most of their competitors on this basis and on general experience with their products.
Alfred from ArtDeShine seems more forthcoming than many of the other coating companies as well but I need a great deal more product experience with ADS products to form any strong conclusions.

[2shiny]

I think if you stay in the line of the same brand, you won't find yourself in a lot of problems. They are mostly designed to work together.

I myself like to work with wolf's chemicals and poorboys polishes as they don't leave any oils behind. What you sre is what you get. I've used IPA+ eraser+panel wipe + gyeon prep after polishing, and nothing was filled at all.

when working with shampoo, I always look for a purr one, without wax or gloss enhancers. Never seen the point in these as they just alter your wax or sealant of choice, so why would you use these?
my choices are Wolf's white satin, dodo juice born to be mild , poorboys super slick and suds ( although I think this leaves something behind), or the new carpro reset.

that last one is a great one to use when you think your wax is fading, but mostly, it's just muted by surfactans left behind. Give it a good wash with reset, and it's back!

[VP Mark]

I'm not really sure why people think chemically stripping the paint via IPA or eraser ect. is harmful. Ive done it for years and never noticed anything except great bonding and clean paint. I've used everything from Eraser to 50/50 IPA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using AG Online

[richy]

I understand your concern. I had the same concern when I switched over to coatings and having a squeaky clean surface was vital to their success. People were using APC cleaners, IPA and other things including glass cleaner. Eraser came out and is a good solution. I wanted something that deep cleaned the paint better than Eraser. I asked Duragloss to make me what eventually came to market as Squeaky Clean. SC is a very powerful chemical paint cleaner that can be put on by hand or via machine. Yes, you must wipe it off afterward. Don't let that concern you. Either dampen a mf with straight water or use an ONR-dampened mf to wipe off the surface to remove any residue you might have missed. This works great for coatings. DP has a very similar product.

Detailer's Coating Prep Polish, clear coat polish, best car polish (http://www.autogeek.net/coating-prep-polish.html)

Now, if you're using a wax or sealant, I suggest DG 501 + 601 mix (4:1). Do some research on here and you'll be overwhelmed by the success people have had using this combo.

[Audios S6]

1. If you think you are going to clean oils using water, you better expect to have some type of surfactant, emulsifier and probably a detergent.
2. Either body prep solvent, a paint cleaner or a coating prep polish
3. Nope, I use IPA or items listed in #2
4. I frequently use body prep solvent. It's cheap and pretty effective with wax and oils, not as much so on sealants though.
5. I have nothing against layering and I would never strip a sealant because it lost some shine, it's still protecting the paint. I follow the typical layering standard: sealant ---> wax ---> Spray wax. Knowing that the spray wax is not very durable, I have no problem adding another coat of wax anytime. I will only do the sealant twice a year for winter & summer prep.

[TurboToys]

I understand your concern. I had the same concern when I switched over to coatings and having a squeaky clean surface was vital to their success. People were using APC cleaners, IPA and other things including glass cleaner. Eraser came out and is a good solution. I wanted something that deep cleaned the paint better than Eraser. I asked Duragloss to make me what eventually came to market as Squeaky Clean. SC is a very powerful chemical paint cleaner that can be put on by hand or via machine. Yes, you must wipe it off afterward. Don't let that concern you. Either dampen a mf with straight water or use an ONR-dampened mf to wipe off the surface to remove any residue you might have missed. This works great for coatings. DP has a very similar product.

Detailer's Coating Prep Polish, clear coat polish, best car polish (http://www.autogeek.net/coating-prep-polish.html)

Now, if you're using a wax or sealant, I suggest DG 501 + 601 mix (4:1). Do some research on here and you'll be overwhelmed by the success people have had using this combo.


i would be wary of a lot of testimonials. 99% of the testimonials are how great something is based on the application, the buff off, and beading.

hard to find any answer to how long something actually lasts without going strictly by the claim on the bottle. if all these people believe they were stripping things before, how can they be certain that the product was even still on the vehicle in good enough condition to be considered "still there".

i do think i'll try carpro eraser or the coating prep polish at some point, but i'm not too sold on some of it because i'd like to apply the gtechniq i purchased at some point, but it doesn't seem enticing to me to try to apply such a strong coating without having the surface be actually prepped and not just "dawn washed".

[Lost Highway]

What GTechniq product do you have? I've been using C2v3 a bit lately and it doesn't seem to be extremely fussy about the base although the jury is still out on longevity. C1 or EXOv2 are another matter.
I tend to be somewhat a believer in the theory that you are safer if you stick within product lines or manufacturer's suggested processes. With the GTechniq coatings I'd opt for prep with their Panel Wipe which I suspect is a more aggressive cleaner than Eraser.
If nothing else by following the manufacturer's directions it doesn't allow them room to fob off bad results as the result of your improvising.

[refreshauto]

if you have any questions about prep for GTechniq products. email Keving from GTechniq. he will answer any questions you have about them. i had a very long conversation with him about his companies products and he answered every single one of them.

[addysdaddy]

if you have any questions about prep for GTechniq products. email Keving from GTechniq. he will answer any questions you have about them. i had a very long conversation with him about his companies products and he answered every single one of them.

Agreed, kevin is a wonderful resource and generous with his time.

[Paul A.]

I have always been drawn to this very discussion...what is the best way to prep the surface for maximum bonding and consequent durability of a sealant. Having abandoned natural wax products as a sole means of paint protection many years ago i have been applying sealants since and am now looking at entering the coating arena. To me it is important to prepare the surface and i have learned more and have refined that step in dealing with sealants.

However, it is the science i yearn for and understanding the physical and chemical characteristics of "best practices" for THAT PARTICULAR PRODUCT, to me, is paramount.

There have been 2 very insightful points made here i totally agree with...

The first being that of "product user reviews". We all tend to assess or be receptive to opinions regarding ease of use, wipe off and immediate short term beading of LSP's. And that is completely ok and natural. That is what we look at when first trying out a new product. I read every single one when we post them up and benefit from them. For that i thank you. However i always let my cynical side ask silently "ok, looks good but how long does it last and how long does it retain it's shine, dirt repellency, strength against washings, etc.?". And those questions are not available yet from the poster and i understand that.

The second very strong point made above is not only the willingness of the manufacturer to speak technically about their product but the quality of that information. I have learned to discount "market speak" from good, solid, logical science. I think most of us here have the ability to do that but there are those maybe just starting out who may need to refine their cynicism through experience.

Plus i put a lot of weight on richy's posts and contributions! He's been through a lot of the science of coatings and paint prep and knows volumes more than i do. Between him, Mike P. And several of you other consummate pro's i have a lot to learn.

[TurboToys]

What GTechniq product do you have? I've been using C2v3 a bit lately and it doesn't seem to be extremely fussy about the base although the jury is still out on longevity. C1 or EXOv2 are another matter.
I tend to be somewhat a believer in the theory that you are safer if you stick within product lines or manufacturer's suggested processes. With the GTechniq coatings I'd opt for prep with their Panel Wipe which I suspect is a more aggressive cleaner than Eraser.
If nothing else by following the manufacturer's directions it doesn't allow them room to fob off bad results as the result of your improvising.


i have some exo v2 that i was planning on using later, but aside from this coating, and the other sealants i was speaking about. this is another word of mouth thing i haven't heard yet, that the gtechniq panel wipe is more effective than eraser. so far most of the posts have been people claiming that eraser is one of the main go to prep solutions for getting good bonding...

i'll be honest, i would be more apt to believe the claims that these quick wipedowns will remove any and all contaminates that will hinder the product performance of xyz, if they claimed that they removed only the oils and then chemically bonded with paint/sealant on the paint itself to allow the product being applied to go on without a hitch, or that the product being applied mixed with the previously used wipe residue because they were compatible, but all i hear is that this and that remove all traces of anything.

lets be honest, if you spray that panel wipe on your panel, and per their claim it doesn't evaporate quickly. which means it doesn't have a high concentration of solvents like ipa (could have others of course). you wipe it clean and clear.... if you bend over and smell that paint and you smell the product that just came from the bottle. you haven't gotten rid of it, and it just put a layer of something on the paint.



the situation i am trying to find better answers for is, how prepped does the surface need to be to go ahead and apply these strong coatings. i have a feeling that a lot of manufacturers will claim their products provide the best possible "synergy" (buzz word there) for their coatings. so buy their stuff. you throw in a few more good buzz words like "formulated" and "engineered" and you have the makings for good marketing.

but what you fail to even see on the panel wipe description is that it properly removes any previous coatings, meaning you would 100&#37; have to polish before going ahead with application. and the panel wipe is merely an oil and residue remover.

case in point, i had a previous coating of exo v2 applied per the direction to my vehicle almost a year ago. this car hasn't been polished since, has only seen 2000 miles about since the application. garaged in the winter, and rainy days in the summer. and some of the more obvious streaks in some small areas from the application are completely gone. aside from the fact that the paint doesn't necessarily act like its still coated, you can visibly see that the streaks from the product are no longer there and it has been less than a year on a "2 year" coating. on a mostly garaged car. application was done by a professional detailer also, with gtechniq products. a case like this just leads me more in the direction that the product is of course a great product, and lasts for quite some time. but the overall durability is probably on the low end because of the sales side of the business where 70% of the sales comes from the products used for applying and keeping up the initial purchase. and i have yet to see a good solid example showing that some of these "cleaners" really do what they say they do.

[refreshauto]

case in point, i had a previous coating of exo v2 applied per the direction to my vehicle almost a year ago. this car hasn't been polished since, has only seen 2000 miles about since the application. garaged in the winter, and rainy days in the summer. and some of the more obvious streaks in some small areas from the application are completely gone. aside from the fact that the paint doesn't necessarily act like its still coated, you can visibly see that the streaks from the product are no longer there and it has been less than a year on a "2 year" coating. on a mostly garaged car. application was done by a professional detailer also, with gtechniq products. a case like this just leads me more in the direction that the product is of course a great product, and lasts for quite some time. but the overall durability is probably on the low end because of the sales side of the business where 70% of the sales comes from the products used for applying and keeping up the initial purchase. and i have yet to see a good solid example showing that some of these "cleaners" really do what they say they do.

i can tell you from experience that i have not had this problem the EXO or C1. if you follow the directions for panel wipe it tells you not to spray Panel Wipe direct to the panel, but to a MF towel then wipe it. Panel Wipe has a quick flash time. if the EXO is streaking and not holding up it was not applied properly. that goes for any coating that you apply.