Trying to implement DA buffer w/ 3M rubbing compound

[tech69]

For solid blacks and solid reds I'd like to implement a DA buffer into my procedure. I was thinking maybe using it with a white lake county smart pad with compound after using a white 3m pad with 3m rubbing compound on a rotary buffer. The problem is, the compound is really hard to wipe clean with a DA buffer. I haven't marked the backing pad to ensure I'm not pushing too hard so maybe I'm pushing old compound that has been compounded into the pad back onto the surface. Not sure but could it be the compound? I've read that 3m compound has a chemical reactive cut created from heat and I assume that's from rotation from a rotary but a DA buffer is different. Any experience with 3m rubbing compound on a DA buffer and what's a good pad for compounding? Any advice appreciated and will also do some studying on this site for some info. Thanks ahead of time.

[joebrez]

You will get the best results with a Rotary with 3M. I have successfully used it with a DA w/ GG "Orange" pads. Did you clay before compound?

[hernandez.art13]

I am starting to think when someone mentions a product, like in this case. 3M compound and others say it's for Rotary or is not designed to be used on a DA.

I am starting to think that saying in a way is bolognese, not mentioning anyone specifically just here it often that's all. Plus they probably have never even tried the 3M product. Its a lot harder to work with 3M than M105 so will give them that and especially Menzerna, but it gets the job done if used correctly.

APC is not designed to be used during a wash like in a foam gun to remove LSP. Or Rubbing alcohol to removing polishing oils.

The Rupes Was designed to be used with Rupes pads only and was not designed to be used with any other pads. Meguiars, LC, B&S etc..., plus it wasn't designed to be used with a Washer Mod.

M100 was designed to be used on a Rotary buffer just like 3M compound was designed. I've actually went to Meguiars and saw first hand M100 used on a DA by the Directors in training for Meguiars use it on my car!

I think D151 was designed for Rotary use too.

So the 3M saying of not designed for DA, marketing wise yes it's true I guess you can say if you read the back of the bottle, but actual detailing wise. I call bolognese.

I am going to try and do a whole car using only 3M products on DA's. I've done it before so I know it can be done. This time I'll document it.

If your wondering... Yes I feel better now :laughing:

[FUNX650]

I am starting to think when someone mentions a product, like in this case. 3M compound and others say it's for Rotary or is not designed to be used on a DA.

I am starting to think that saying in a way is bolognese, not mentioning anyone specifically just here it often that's all. Plus they probably have never even tried the 3M product. Its a lot harder to work with 3M than M105 so will give them thay and especially Menzerna, but it gets the job done if used correctly.


So the 3M saying of not designed for DA, marketing wise yes it's true I guess you can say if you read the back of the label, but actual detailing wise. I call bolognese.

I am going to try and do a whole car using only 3M products on a DA's. I've done it before so I know it can be done. This time I'll document it.

If your wondering... Yes I feel better now :laughing:
I'm in your corner on this one Art!!

Sure as shooting:
It's not always as easy to break-down the abrasives of some 3M compounding/polishing liquids with a DA, as it may be when using a Rotary.

But as you very well know:
Many 3M abrasive products are designed for body shops/re-finishing industries. So...IMO...3M is basically covering their collective butts by issuing (marketing) warnings against DA usage that's targeted to/for the Joe/Jane Lunchbucket consumer-populace.


Hecky-Durn...
Even I have used a DA with 3M Imperial Hand Glaze.

Also:
Thanks for your post Art...
Now I even feel better!! :dblthumb2:

Bob

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

Here is an article written by Mike Phillips on the use of rotary only products such as 3M products on a DA.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/70216-use-rotary-buffer-only-read-directions.html

The Meguiar's twins (M105 and M205) can be used on the rotary or DA buffer.

[Mike Phillips]

For solid blacks and solid reds I'd like to implement a DA buffer into my procedure.




Good plan.





I was thinking maybe using it with a white lake county smart pad with compound after using a white 3m pad with 3m rubbing compound on a rotary buffer.



Normally you would switch to a lighter cutting polish instead of only switching to a less aggressive foam pad but sticking with the aggressive compound.





The problem is, the compound is really hard to wipe clean with a DA buffer.


As I get older I appreciate products that wipe off easy... been there done that for too many years with the products that wipe off hard.




I haven't marked the backing pad to ensure I'm not pushing too hard so maybe I'm pushing old compound that has been compounded into the pad back onto the surface.



Are you cleaning the gunk off the face of the pad after each section your buff?

One of the most important things you can do when polishing paint is work clean and this means cleaning your pads often.





Not sure but could it be the compound? I've read that 3m compound has a chemical reactive cut created from heat and I assume that's from rotation from a rotary but a DA buffer is different.




I'd love to see that in print somewhere? Do you have it or know where that info is posted?


For as long as I've been detailing cars I always hear people say,

You need heat to break down the abrasives


Actually, abrasives break down from pressure over time. Heat is an unwanted and unnecessary by-product of the process.

(I think I typed that out about 8 years ago)





Any experience with 3m rubbing compound on a DA buffer and what's a good pad for compounding? Any advice appreciated and will also do some studying on this site for some info. Thanks ahead of time.




Abrasive technology is different, what works with the action of a rotary buffer might not look good when used with a tool that both rotates and oscillates.

While I have not tested every product on the market that states it's for use with a rotary buffer what I have done is help a lot of people that were experiencing micro-marring or DA Haze when trying to use these types of products with DA Polishers by switching them over to better polishes or at least polishes actually recommended for use with DA Polishers.


Here's my article on this topic,

For Use with Rotary Buffer Only - Read the Directions (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/70216-use-rotary-buffer-only-read-directions.html)



:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

I am starting to think when someone mentions a product, like in this case. 3M compound and others say it's for Rotary or is not designed to be used on a DA.



I would never say "all" compounds designated by the manufacturer for use with a rotary buffer won't work with a DA as certainly some do not.

The bigger picture is this, if a person starts running into problems with getting the finish they're looking for and the problem or defect they see after machine polishing with a dual action polisher is a DA Haze or Micro-marring, then the way to troubleshoot is to start looking at all the factors involved.


Clean pad? (a dirty pad can lead to micro-marring)
Clean surface? (a dirty surface can lead to micro-marring)
The right pad? (A foam cutting pad by itself can leave micro-marring on black paint)
Technique? (Buffing to a dry buff can lead to micro-marring)
Product? - Your choice of product is a huge factor.


:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

I am starting to think when someone mentions a product, like in this case. 3M compound and others say it's for Rotary or is not designed to be used on a DA.







I'm in your corner on this one Art!!


Bob

The good news is everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My goal is always the same, that is help others get what they want. In most cases on this forum that means defect-free paint.

I've seen a pattern over the years when I get asked the same type of question and then after doing a little troubleshooting narrow the pertinent factor down to the product being used. I'm really the last person on earth to jump to a conclusion.


Here's what you want to do if you want to test any product. Get a black car or a black hood and polish it till it's PERFECT.

Next, take any compound you want to test and buff the paint with a foam polishing pad on a DA Polisher.

Next chemically strip the paint with IPA or MS or whatever you like to use to chemically strip paint.

Then inspect the results in bright sunlight.

Keep in mind, the best and in my opinion only way to do this test is with black paint. Black shows everything and if it's happening to black paint then it's happening to all colors of paint it's just your eyes can't always see what's taking place on lighter colors.

Here's a test I just did using a 3M Rubbing Compound and to be honest, the haze isn't as bad as I thought it would be using a white foam polishing pad.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=77159


Full resolution picture cropped out of the above original picture...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=77160


Your eyes probably would never see it on white or light colored paints.


:)

[hernandez.art13]

Keep in mind, the best and in my opinion only way to do this test is with black paint. Black shows everything and if it's happening to black paint then it's happening to all colors of paint it's just your eyes can't always see what's taking place on lighter colors.

Here's a test I just did using a 3M Rubbing Compound and to be honest, the haze isn't as bad as I thought it would be using a white foam polishing pad.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=77159


Full resolution picture cropped out of the above original picture...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=77160


Your eyes probably would never see it on white or light colored paints.


:)

Hello Mike, so question.

^ In the pictures above, you used 3M rubbing compound and a white polishing pad only? and those were your results?

I've seen people remove tree sap with a mf towel by rubbing profusely on the paint. Then it left the paint scoured/swirled etc.., I then said ok, the sap is gone but you scratched the paint..., They then looked at me like I was just being lazy and didn't want to remove the tree sap. lol

So they went to the detailing cabinet and got some Meguiar's Gold Class Wax and put it on and voila! The scratches magically disappeared (to them) I then tried explaining to them that the wax just hid them and they were still there. I still got looked at like I was just being lazy by not rubbing and rubbing the tree sap away. This was years back but I still remember.

Thank You and if and when I proceed with my experiment, I'll make sure to get a jet black subject.

I'll probably sand the area down (for demonstration purposes) using 3000 grit, maybe test out 1500 too.

Rupes 21

3M Rubbing compound
3M Machine Polish
3M Ultrafine Machine Polish

As for pads

LC Blue Hybrid Wool Pad (like that pad a lot)
LC Polishing Pad
LC Waxing Pad (final polish)

I then will strip the paint using IPA and try to document it as best I can. Should be fun, plus the 3M stuff isn't cheap. I'll just head over to my uncles shop and ask for a sample of the compound, polish and ultrafine polish to conduct my test.

I have never done testing this extreme with 3M so should be fun, and I could be wrong :dunno: ... :props:

I'll make sure to keep everyone updated when I proceed with this experiment.

(Final week for school!)

[Mike Phillips]

Hello Mike, so question.

^ In the pictures above, you used 3M rubbing compound and a white polishing pad only? and those were your results?




Yes. The 3M Perfect-It Rubbing Compound #1

The micro-marring would likely be worse if I used a more aggressive pad like a foam cutting pad.

The point being, I've been helping people to get the results they're looking for when they are machine polishing the paint on their car for a long time.


There's a pattern that is repeated and that is someone asking for help because they are seeing micro-marring in the paint after buffing out their car.

So I do what I normally do and that's try to help them by troubleshooting the process.

And most of the time the culprit is they are using compound intended to be used with a rotary buffer with a dual action polisher.

When I have them switch to a polish formulated and intended for use with a dual action polisher the problem goes away.


People can certainly use whatever products they want when buffing out their car but if and when they run into problems, like not getting the results they hoped for and dream about then I do what I call troubleshooting. This includes looking at all the factors.

I've had people ask for help because they were seeing micro-marring in the paint and the problem was as simple as not cleaning the pad often or at all. Or using too aggressive of a pad with their polish.

I do think it's a good idea when troubleshooting to start with looking at all the factors and when you finally get to taking a look at the products, take a look to see what the manufacture recommends, they're supposed to know their products best.



And I'll stick by what I wrote here,





For Use with Rotary Buffer Only - Read the Directions (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/70216-use-rotary-buffer-only-read-directions.html)


A common question I get asked via e-mail, a thread posted to the forum, a question posted to one of our YouTube videos or PM and also on my Facebook page will go like this,



Hi Mike,

I've read a lot of articles and watched a lot of videos but I'm still getting holograms or haze left in the paint, especially on darker colored cars? What am I doing wrong?
Usually the first thing I'll ask the person what they are using, as in, what



Tools
Pads
Products


There’s always a segment of these queries where the person is using a dual action polisher with foam pads, so they're good to go in this area but they're using products that are intended for, formulated for and designed for use with a rotary buffer.

Now I'm not a chemist and never claim to be but I like to give reputable manufactures the benefit of the doubt when they state right on the labels of their products what type of tool the product is recommended to be used with.

There are a lot of different types of abrasive technology on the market and some of this abrasive technology is intended specifically to be used with a rotary buffer and almost always in the refinishing industry.

The normal tool used in the refinishing industry is the rotary buffer. After cars are painted, IF they are go be sanded, after sanding a rotary buffer is used with a compound, polish and sometimes even a glaze to buff the paint before the car is returned to the customer.

This almost always leaves holograms in the paint but that's how this industry operates. Most "customers" don't know the difference between swirls and squirrels so for most body shop it's not an issue.



Big picture is this...

Products designed for use with rotary buffers and targeted at the refinishing industry doesn't mean the same products when used with any type of dual action polisher will create a customer pleasing finish no matter what pad is used nor the skill of the person doing the work.

The reason why is because it's the wrong abrasive technology for a tool that rotates and oscillates and the results when a person uses the wrong abrasive technology looks like this...






Glad you're bringing this topic up if it's something you're keenly interested in and good luck with all your testing.

Remember when testing to do your bet to keep all the parameters the same.

For example, before I tested the 3M compound on the black demo panel I first used the same type of pad, a white 5.5" LC Flat pad, with Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover to remove all the swirls and scratches out of the paint. By the way, it left no micro-marring.

Then I used the same pad, a different one that was clean and dry, for the compound test and the results were micro-marring.

So the paint, tool, pad and technique were all the same. The only thing that changed was the product.


:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

By the way, here's post #6 from my article, note the screenshot documenting the guy asking me for help due to haze problems, this is just an example as I've been helping solve this issue for years now....










Mike, excellent info as always!

It can be argued that reading and common sense are all but lost today, further proven from the need for articles like this.




Well I'm guilty of not reading directions too, not just in the car care world but in life in general. I went to install some Super Hoops on my truck and after holding the brackets up to the truck body and spinning them around and scratching my head a few times I went to the Round File, dug the instructions out and then after reading them... could plainly see how to install them the right way the first time. :D


I kind of figure that the average person doesn't think too deeply about compound and polishes and figures they're all kind of the same in a "general sense" and as such, doesn't know or consider that different segments of this industry require different types of products for their unique needs.


For me, I never mind answering questions or helping guys to troubleshoot what's not working in their process. After a certain level is reached for how often a topic comes up it's a reflex action to write an article that I can simply copy and paste when needed instead of typing out an answer over and over again. When though of in that light, I guess I'm lazy. :D :D :D



Here's an example for which I will not simply copy and paste the blue clickable link at the top of this article.


See posts #1, #8 and post #9 which ties vindicates the purpose of this thread.


Not sure how you guys do it



And if you click the link below you can read a question by Dániel Erdős and my follow-up answers.


How to use the FLEX 3401 Dual Action Polisher - YouTube (http://youtu.be/Arn_kVH3BVc)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/YouTube_Reply_Mike_Phillips.jpg



:)




This is another good reason to have more than one type of compound and polish in your personal arsenal of detailing supplies, so you can do some testing and troubleshooting when you run into problems.

The biggest reason why is because paint systems are different and paint systems are continually evolving. What worked for you yesterday on one car might not work the same on the next car.

:)

[hernandez.art13]

Thanks Mike, another fun experiment would be to introduce Holograms with a Rotary and then try and remove them using 3M products on a DA.

And as always thank you very much for the helpful information.

[MrCleanit]

It's a little ironic I just read this post. My wife's car is my favorite test subject because there is a lot her car that hasn't been "detailed". So, from time to time I pick a spot that I haven't touched yet and practice my Rotary or DA skills.

The other night I was doing the driver side fender with a 50/50. Week ago I bought a new polish so I wanted to "desperately" try it out.

1. Wash & Dried area
2. Inspect and Clayed (even though I knew what it needed anyway)
3. DA with 3M Rubbing Compound 3M Rubbing Compound 05973, body shop safe compound (http://www.autogeek.net/body-shop-compound.html)
4. DA with Polish

I didn't write my procedure down to the "T" only because I'll spare everyone that song and dance. But, I assure you...it was done right! And the pad list because I know it is not on AG (very sorry! but I still love and buy your stuff too!)

Below are pics that I took after the process. Originally I wasn't going to post them on the forums because I was fooling around. That and the pics came out terrible to say the least. Haven't been practicing my picture taking skills really. Please excuse the bad pics.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=77162&size=1



http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=77164&size=1

This one is my favorite
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=77163&size=1

So it does work. That 3M Compound was my very first product I had bought along with my Rotary that a friend gave me. I loved it with the Rotary that ever since I bought my DA I kept going with it on that machine as well. Had not problems so far.

Hope it helps!

[Mike Phillips]

So it does work.






If it works for you that's all that's important.


:dblthumb2: