D151 with LC Tangerine + Flex 3401 what a disappointment.....

[DaC]

This weekend I polished 2 black honda civic (09 and 11). I used D151 + LC Tangerine + Flex 3401.
On the first Civic I used speed 3 the entire time, just lighting up pressure on the last 2 passes... problem is... there was no correction at all.... then I though: "well, it must be the speed"
Today I did the other black civic... speed 5.5 and firm pressure (4 slow passes), then 2.5 and very low pressure (3 quick passes)........ same thing, almost no correction........ on the other hand cleaning ability, gloss and color depth were great, although residual hazing was there.

The thing is: D151 was supposed to be between 205 and 105 in cut power...... BUT... and this is a big BUT, I had previously polished these same 2 Civics an year before with M205 + LC tangerine + G110v2 and the results were great....

What's the catch here ?
I'm thinking: Maybe D151 might just not get along very well with a closed cell foam pad ?
Or maybe D151 doesn't works all that well with a flex ?

[FFguy808]

D151 was really meant for rotary and wool, but it never gave me problems with the flex with a foam pad (open or closed cell)

[DaC]

D151 was really meant for rotary and wool, but it never gave me problems with the flex with a foam pad (open or closed cell)

well it didn't gave me any problem besides the lack of cut.

[BayAreaTech]

D151+ tangerine pad on Rupes.... I understand it's not the same machine but this is also a 09 civic. I get very good correction on Hondas with D151 and never past speed 5

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/05/8a6yvypy.jpg

[FFguy808]

At first, I thought d151 was almost like m205, but I notice good cut slightly better than m205 with an orange regular LC pad and work the product until it's clear like thin film

If you like an AIO with good cut, PF2500 is my vote

[allenk4]

Did this combo work when you did your test spot?

[BayAreaTech]

At first, I thought d151 was almost like m205, but I notice good cut slightly better than m205 with an orange regular LC pad and work the product until it's clear like thin film

If you like an AIO with good cut, PF2500 is my vote

PF2500 is not an AIO as it does not leave behind any protection. It must be topped with wax or Sealant.

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

What's the catch here ?
I'm thinking: Maybe D151 might just not get along very well with a closed cell foam pad ?
Or maybe D151 doesn't works all that well with a flex ?

I have never used D151 with a closed cell pad such as the Hydrotechs. Anytime I use D151 I always equip my 3401 with Meguiar's W8207 yellow polishing pad. I have never had a problem when getting correction from this combo. I also use speed 4.

Who knows, D151 may not like the closed cell construction of the Hydrotechs?

[DaC]

D151+ tangerine pad on Rupes.... I understand it's not the same machine but this is also a 09 civic. I get very good correction on Hondas with D151 and never past speed 5

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/05/8a6yvypy.jpg


That was what I was expecting, what was your process? Passes, pressure, arm speed, section size?





At first, I thought d151 was almost like m205, but I notice good cut slightly better than m205 with an orange regular LC pad and work the product until it's clear like thin film

If you like an AIO with good cut, PF2500 is my vote


I did that. I do have PF2500 but the whole idea was to make something very fast to what I was used to.... Washing claying and polishing took me 6 hours in total and I'm used to do at least 2 steps in a 16 hours mark....... Full correction was not the idea, I was expecting some rids left, but not as much as it ended up with....





Did this combo work when you did your test spot?

Yes but it doesn't count as I was testing a different product on the test stop to compare against D151. I knew these cars, they are from the family... Already polished 2 or 3 times each.... I didn't imagined D151 wouldn't handle the task as M205 did before with a g110v2.....
I'm also traveling by plane, so keep my gear to the minimum and D151 was the only thing I brought.

[DaC]

I
D151 was really meant for rotary and wool, but it never gave me problems with the flex with a foam pad (open or closed cell)

That's my guess. But I'll have to check it later. I'm between this and flex...
Next time I'll test it with an open cell and with tangerine again + g110v2. I'll try to use it on my dynabrade head too.

[DaC]

Ok guys, I took my time to have a better look on the 2nd civic service (speed 5.5 on the flex).

This car wasn't that bad as the first where I only used speed 3 on the flex.
Taking this in consideration, the correction does seems right on this one although pretty uneven, some good parts some with lots of defects left. This shows it's an inconstant technique issue rather than the combo itself.
I was trying to make it too fast, making sections too big on some panels and this must certainly caused uneven pressure and maybe sometimes I must have used just a too fast arm speed.
Maybe I was expecting too much from the flex correction speed (I have only used it a few).

Here is the before and after on a section that went well. Pretty hazy I might say. I would probably pick a free spindle DA next time for AIO jobs on black paints.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/d151_tangerine_f2401.jpg (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76314)

[BayAreaTech]

First time I used D151 was on a 07 black Civic. I also experienced haze with the Tangerine pad. My problem was that I was moving to fast. The way I work D151 now is speed 5, almost no pressure to moderate (determined in test spot) and for me very slow arm movement I would say I work no more than a 2x2 section I don't wipe it off until I have polished entire car, for me it's almost a thin film after 3 or 4 pass and move on.

I have also achieved very good correction with the crimson finishing pad on other black Civics by using a little more downward pressure.

[DaC]

First time I used D151 was on a 07 black Civic. I also experienced haze with the Tangerine pad. My problem was that I was moving to fast. The way I work D151 now is speed 5, almost no pressure to moderate (determined in test spot) and for me very slow arm movement I would say I work no more than a 2x2 section I don't wipe it off until I have polished entire car, for me it's almost a thin film after 3 or 4 pass and move on.

I have also achieved very good correction with the crimson finishing pad on other black Civics by using a little more downward pressure.

Great advices! What machine do you use with this method ?

[Tato]

From what I see here, you got pretty good correction.

However, if you take a look at after picture, swirls that you've left are much better (I mean, finer) than what you removed.

That can mean you will be able to remove them as well with proper technique.

If not with D151, maybe you can do a polishing step prior using the AIO, and just 'finish' with D151 after the polishing step.

Regarding the Flex, when I first switched to it (from a Meg's DA), I found it cool, but not that much 'upgrade' like I was expecting.

Don't let this fool you. Use the tool the most you can so you will be able to develop proper way of using it. This 'transition' step you're facing is just the beginning of it all.

I remember that the learning curve with a 'conventional' DA was a matter of minutes, while on the Flex it took months of work. Don't expect the slow DA learning curve with the Flex since it's another Beast and can't be compared directly to conventional DA.

The learning curve I'm referring here is for you to get the best and consistent results every time, not to turn it on and polish a surface at will. Knowing how to use a DA is enough for this.

However, we tend to use it like when using a DA, and that's the general mistake I've made when switching to it.

Also, I was expecting the machine itself to improve the job, while what will improve your work is your hands-on experience and knowledge achieved at this forum.

You may think some of my words above are "BS" (like my brother says ahahah), but in some months you'll remember this and think of me with some more care.

You already identified many of your mistakes, like too low polisher speed, trying to cover larger areas at a time, and too fast arm speed. You may also not be using proper quantity of product (too much or too little).

You also (from what I can see) skipped the test spot part, where you would be able to 'dial up' a procedure to remove those defects in a better fashion, instead of doing the whole car in an inconsistent manner then complaining about product or polisher.



I'd say, prepare an area 24x16 (size of a retangular MF towel);

Before starting, put drops of product on the pad, then 'DAB' the polisher over surface you'll work;

Using just a low push on trigger (simulating speed ~1), do one pass (fast) spreading the product over entire surface you'll work;

Use polisher speed ~5, put pressure under the pad and keep it firm and flat, do the slowest arm movement you can.

Do your passes with even pressure and slow arm movement, up/down, then side to side, covering up 50% of last pass.

After some (let's say, 4 passes (2 up/down / 2 side-to-side), ease up on pressure, and/or even reduce polisher speed a bit (to 3 or 4), and do the last 2 passes.

After doing this, if you cannot get results you're expecting:

You should try a more aggressive pad;

You may try a polishing step prior AIO (like cited above).

The paint you're working may be harder then you think about, as well.

Hope that gives you some general idea of how to deal with it from now on.


Pressure on the pad (and slow arm movement) is needed to engage abrasives within paint. You should not use a product like 'spreading' a cream lotion, apart if the product is a LSP or is intended to be used that way.

Kind Regards.

[DaC]

From what I see here, you got pretty good correction.

However, if you take a look at after picture, swirls that you've left are much better (I mean, finer) than what you removed.

That can mean you will be able to remove them as well with proper technique.

If not with D151, maybe you can do a polishing step prior using the AIO, and just 'finish' with D151 after the polishing step.

Regarding the Flex, when I first switched to it (from a Meg's DA), I found it cool, but not that much 'upgrade' like I was expecting.

Don't let this fool you. Use the tool the most you can so you will be able to develop proper way of using it. This 'transition' step you're facing is just the beginning of it all.

I remember that the learning curve with a 'conventional' DA was a matter of minutes, while on the Flex it took months of work. Don't expect the slow DA learning curve with the Flex since it's another Beast and can't be compared directly to conventional DA.

The learning curve I'm referring here is for you to get the best and consistent results every time, not to turn it on and polish a surface at will. Knowing how to use a DA is enough for this.

However, we tend to use it like when using a DA, and that's the general mistake I've made when switching to it.

Also, I was expecting the machine itself to improve the job, while what will improve your work is your hands-on experience and knowledge achieved at this forum.

You may think some of my words above are "BS" (like my brother says ahahah), but in some months you'll remember this and think of me with some more care.

You already identified many of your mistakes, like too low polisher speed, trying to cover larger areas at a time, and too fast arm speed. You may also not be using proper quantity of product (too much or too little).

You also (from what I can see) skipped the test spot part, where you would be able to 'dial up' a procedure to remove those defects in a better fashion, instead of doing the whole car in an inconsistent manner then complaining about product or polisher.



I'd say, prepare an area 24x16 (size of a retangular MF towel);

Before starting, put drops of product on the pad, then 'DAB' the polisher over surface you'll work;

Using just a low push on trigger (simulating speed ~1), do one pass (fast) spreading the product over entire surface you'll work;

Use polisher speed ~5, put pressure under the pad and keep it firm and flat, do the slowest arm movement you can.

Do your passes with even pressure and slow arm movement, up/down, then side to side, covering up 50% of last pass.

After some (let's say, 4 passes (2 up/down / 2 side-to-side), ease up on pressure, and/or even reduce polisher speed a bit (to 3 or 4), and do the last 2 passes.

After doing this, if you cannot get results you're expecting:

You should try a more aggressive pad;

You may try a polishing step prior AIO (like cited above).

The paint you're working may be harder then you think about, as well.

Hope that gives you some general idea of how to deal with it from now on.


Pressure on the pad (and slow arm movement) is needed to engage abrasives within paint. You should not use a product like 'spreading' a cream lotion, apart if the product is a LSP or is intended to be used that way.

Kind Regards.

I was trying something new from what I was already used to.
I agree learning proper use from a flex forced DA or rotary is important although not essential depending on your business of choice, despite DA's, specially Rupes being so well regarded today.

I can finish with a flex without problem with a crimson or white pad and a product like M205, SF4000 or PF2500. I agree a Flex DA is something very different to master than a free spindle DA, but not that much, you just need to "understand" it a little bit.

This was the first time I was using D151 and pushing to make it very fast, this is not something I'm used to do. All my verification process were skipped.


Test spot wasn't made because as explained before, this was not the idea. I was traveling, carrying my stuff by plane and needed to keep weight to a minimum, D151 was the only polishing liquid brought to be tested.

The idea was not to get it perfect, I was just surprised by the initial lack of cut, but as I realize now, the main issue was expecting just too much from the Flex DA cutting speed compared to a regular DA.

This approach was more like: "keep it simple, fast and good enough" and not multiple steps. If I were to go for multiple steps and a full correction probably FG400 / SF4000 / SF4500 would have been my choice, I wouldn't ever try to finish with D151 it was not meant for that.