Observing PBL Coating Macro and Microscopically - And more...

[Tato]

Dear Friends,

In advance, I'd like to say the following thread was not conducted following any scientific protocol and every conclusion showed here should be taken with care.

I just found something interesting I would like to share with you all.

Some time ago, I was bored (only reason!) and applied Pinnacle Black Label Wheel coating to a section of a mirror. As soon I as put it in there, I was able to see it everyday since after application, every time vapor of shower hit the mirror surface.

I've placed this picture ~2 times on other threads, so it'll be here again to mark where everything started:

Coated side stands for C, N for non-coated part.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/wheel-coat-on-mirror.png


~10 days ago, I've done a new coating application (on another mirror), now using the 4 coatings (Surface, Paint, Wheel and Glass), the Coating Booster, and 2 non-coating products, a sealant (Wolfgang DGPS) and a wax (Pinnacle Souveran Liquid Wax).

That time I'd like to see if other LSP would leave same effect on mirror.

(Forgive me about imperfect borders, I was not aware coating would go under the tape line).

On this picture you can see all coatings applied in rectangles, and Coating booster applied on a larger rectangle bellow all coatings:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/coatingthread1.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76241)

Bellow, Sealant and Wax promoted same effect:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/coatingthread2.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76242)

After seeing the effect on mirror with others LSP as well, I was willing to know if PBL Cleansing polish was effective removing those products, wax and sealants. I've applied it by hand using a finishing applicator:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/zpolish.png

While applying, when passing over the coating, I was able to see coated rectangle lines under the polish:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/zpolishpass.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76245)

Unfortunately, after applying PBL Cleansing polish by hand like a 'cleansing lotion', neither the wax or the sealant 'MARKS' came of.
Read, I've said their marks on mirror, I cannot affirm it was still strong there.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/zcoatingpolishpassaftersealandwax.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76249)

They look somewhat weaken, but cannot state that based on this result. However, surface was not entirely clean from sealant or wax signs, at least.

Coatings are there
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/zcoatingpolishpassafter.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76248)


I've done a step up to a polishing pad (by hand), and that almost took everything away:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/sealantsticks.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76244)

For some reason, wolfgang sealant marks were very persistent.
Souveran was removed at this time, at least by observation.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/waxgone.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76247)

This time I've done an IPA over whole mirror, to see the effect Sealant still showed minor marks there:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/sealstick.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76237)

In this picture you can observe the coatings and the booster were unaffected by this process.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/coatingsarethere.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76240)


To get more ideas regarding coating bonding on polishing oils (what I mainly try to remove while prepping for a coating), I've done the following:

- Polished an area (by hand) using Menzerna SF4000, wiped polish off and coated just after, using Surface Coating.
Bellow you observe tape line after this process:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/oversf4000coated.png

I've polished with SF4000 on the side of the coated part, but left that area uncoated, it won't show nothing.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/sf4000area.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76238)

Above you can see I've coated the area where the sealant and wax was (but cleansed with polish and IPA) and will try to observe something on that area.

More signs of coating being there over SF4000 polished area
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/stickedtoSF4000.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76239)


Microscopical Pictures:
I have an USB microscope and my first idea was trying to see between the lines of the coating and non-coated areas.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/coatingthread3.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76256)


Using 500x zoom, I was able to get some pics of Uncoated and Coated areas and observe slight differences between them. See for yourself:


From what I've observed, coated parts exhibited 'better beading' under vapor while non-coated areas showed an unorganized water placement.

NOTICE: Pictures Bellow show a 500x Microscope zoom over the 'blurry' rectangle marks I've showed that are visible to the naked eye.

Uncoated:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/uncoated3.png

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/uncoated2.png

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/uncoated4.png

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/uncoated.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76257)

Now the coated:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/coated1.png

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/coated3.png

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/coated2.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76255)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/coated4.png


Cool, Hun!?

I took advantage of doing this today and placed a layer of Surface coating over 2 coated portions to observe from now on:

Very difficult to take good pictures...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/layered.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76236)

I've layered ~half the rectangle and ~unevenly so I can see it over and then OFF the coated part.

Close on Wheel coating layered to show how I've topped it:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/Wheelcoatinglayered.png

So from now on I'll observe coatings I already had, layered coatings and SF4000 area coated. I don't know what to expect, time will tell.



From what I could conclude from the above, surface cleansing polish should be applied consistently to remove recent applied LSPs, even waxes. Just spreading it over surface and removing will not do the job.

However, I have to consider the fact I couldn't put effort on the mirror while working, like when using a polisher over a car's finish.

Also, when prepping for a coating we generally do thorough washes, clay, and the 'old' LSP should come out on the compounding/polishing step. To prep. a just wax/sealed finish for a coating, more than just surface cleansing polish by hand may be needed.

After seeing this, I'd go towards a polishing pad to get the most cleansing of PBL polish.

PBL coatings bond strongly to surface just after being applied, and although we all keep it out of misture the most we can after application, moisture (at the level showed above) seems not to be so scary to the coating just some minutes after application, at least for short expositions like shown above.


Again, any of those conclusions can be taken literally. I'm really interested in learning more about this subject, and my data is just very initial and preliminar so someone with more knowledge and equipment can do better testings to give us more precise guidance while using coatings, particularly Pinnacle Black Label Coatings.

A general view again:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/futureobservation.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/76235)

Hope you enjoyed this test,

Please, comment, critic, ask!

Kind Regards.

[swanicyouth]

Nice work!

Very interesting!

[theblob640]

I am glad you posted this. I also have a thread regarding the removal of CQuartz using M205/SF4000 by hand. Seems like my little test spot I did on my car did not remove the coating.

Thanks.

[DaveT435]

Subscribed.

[Tato]

Nice work!

Very interesting!

Thank you for feedback. I know this kind of test has ample space for extrapolation of results, but I tried to be careful with experiments to avoid making it confusing and mistaken instead of interesting.

Hope to update soon with new insights.


I am glad you posted this. I also have a thread regarding the removal of CQuartz using M205/SF4000 by hand. Seems like my little test spot I did on my car did not remove the coating.

Thanks.


Dear. I've saw your thread, honestly, I cannot believe what you've done is enough to remove the coating, however, it can abrade the coating to some level, this is true.

Whenever I'm trying to repair a coated panel, I trace a plan route to 'isolate' the smallest area which will possibly be entirely polished, prepped and coated again. Just to be careful enough.

Imagine it like a 'panel repaint' procedure... you 'stretch' your working area a bit trying to make an even repair without having to 'repaint the whole car'.

Please, ask if you need more explanation on this, I really cannot express this meaning in foreign language.


Subscribed.

Thanks. I found this subject interesting since I (me, at least) haven't seen a LSP visually before, like I was able to do this time.

The wax/seal removal tries was done to give even more insights since when we apply surface cleansing polish to surface, we generally just 'believe' it done it's part, since (like I've said) we can't see LSP being removed and at what degree it was removed.

However, when I use Surface Cleansing polish on glass (generally orange light cutting pad and by polisher), I can see the removal of embedded dirt and grime, and even topical waterspots. I can see the thorough transparent glass at the end. This is easier to be seen than the removal of LSP or polishing oils on surface.

That said, my results in any form will put PBL polish in doubt, even because I couldn't exert much pressure while acting on a mirror on the wall, thus could not reproduce exact technique I use when applying Surface Cleansing Polish.

To make a better testing, I'll try to get a tempered glass panel which can be thoroughly polished to many levels, while can be put under vapor to show (at least) clues there is something there.

I mean, this is a very first experiment trying to see the LSP. My great wish sharing this here is to have more people doing similar projects based on this, but added to their experience and testing scenario possibilities.

Hope to come later with new data on this,

Glad you enjoyed,

Kind Regards.

[281]

Very cool and interesting experiment Rafael!

In my experience using PBL Cleansing polish, I had trouble removing Wolfgang DGPS. Maybe it was I was using - LC Hyrdo Crimson. How does one tell the LSP is truly gone??? I ended up just lightly polishing to remove WG DGPS. Water sprayed on the panels definitely had a different reaction after polishing.

When it came time to apply Synergy to my car, I used PBL Cleansing polish with LC Hydro Tangerine pad to remove BlackICE - the gloss came back to life. After adding Synergy, it was amplified even more.

I understand and believe PBL Surface Cleansing removes polish oils, waxes, but I'm not sure about sealants - at least that was my experience with WG DGPS. Maybe I did something wrong - who knows.

I'm definitely interested in updates!

[Kamakaz1961]

Wow WAY COOL!!!!

[StangFan25]

This was done on glass/mirror? Not trying to be a downer but wouldn't a better test be on an actual painted car panel?

Just curious.

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

Very cool experiment Rafael!! Keep us updated on the progress of the mirror.

I will be following along.

[silverfox]

What your test also confirmed is the incredible water repelling characteristics that coatings have.

I'd love had you applied a wax over the coating to demonstrate to our resident waxaholics how wax negatively effects the repelling characteristics of the coating.

[Angler]

Excellent work, Tato. You are quite the scientist and I appreciate your inquisitive mind.

[Tato]

Very cool and interesting experiment Rafael!

In my experience using PBL Cleansing polish, I had trouble removing Wolfgang DGPS. Maybe it was I was using - LC Hyrdo Crimson. How does one tell the LSP is truly gone??? I ended up just lightly polishing to remove WG DGPS. Water sprayed on the panels definitely had a different reaction after polishing.

When it came time to apply Synergy to my car, I used PBL Cleansing polish with LC Hydro Tangerine pad to remove BlackICE - the gloss came back to life. After adding Synergy, it was amplified even more.

I understand and believe PBL Surface Cleansing removes polish oils, waxes, but I'm not sure about sealants - at least that was my experience with WG DGPS. Maybe I did something wrong - who knows.

I'm definitely interested in updates!

Thanks for feedback James. Extrapolating my results (with caution), I may say that Surface cleansing polish would effectively remove sealants (relatively recent applications) better if used with a polishing pad.

However, after actually polishing the car (with a 'true' polish), a light application of cleansing may be enough to prepare surface to be coated.


Wow WAY COOL!!!!

!! thank you mate. Like I've said earlier, this 'amateur' experiment was at least interesting, in a way I could observe LSP like (me at least) never saw before. The coated 'microscopic' beading shots are very cool.


This was done on glass/mirror? Not trying to be a downer but wouldn't a better test be on an actual painted car panel?

Just curious.

Sure, please, don't worry about being a 'downer'. Every critic is always constructive in a way the following tests I make will be better and better by reading inputs like yours. Thank you for that.

This was a very first experiment just to confirm some ideas I had. To ease up things (using water vapor to 'see' the LSP) I decided to use the mirror. What I've done may be called a 'pilot study', that's why I ask all the care before interpreting results above.

Next one will be done on a painted panel, thanks for sharing your opinion.


Very cool experiment Rafael!! Keep us updated on the progress of the mirror.

I will be following along.

Thank you for support, like I said above, this was a pilot of some ideas I had, so I'll try to arrange a painted panel and conduct more 'real tests' on there. Be sure to be kept updated.


What your test also confirmed is the incredible water repelling characteristics that coatings have.

I'd love had you applied a wax over the coating to demonstrate to our resident waxaholics how wax negatively effects the repelling characteristics of the coating.

Thank you for comments. Your ideas will be considered on the following tests I'm planning to do on a painted panel.


Excellent work, Tato. You are quite the scientist and I appreciate your inquisitive mind.

Thanks you Angler. In fact, I'm giving up a Ph.D. to run my full time detailing business... However, looks like I will not be able to give up my curiosity vein ahahahha

Thanks to everyone who posted ideas and comments here,

Be ready for more, soon.

Kind Regards.

[281]

Rafael,

What do you think is the best course of for reapplying PBL Glass coating in case it was not properly applied in the sense it's uneven?

Use PBL Surface Cleanse Polish then apply glass coating? Apply Booster?

[Tato]

Dear, this question is very difficult to answer, since we don't have enough knowledge regarding coating 'layering' yet. Main doubts are around when it's the best time to layer the coating; 'if' (and how) a new layer would adhere to underlying layer.

However, I've recently done a glass coating reapplication, and that was the follow-up:

- Thorough wash and thorough clay
- Polishing pad on glass and PBL cleansing polish, half windshield at a time, speed 4-5 and approximately 4-5 passes per half windshield. Normal arm speed (not fast, not slow). Firm pressure (nothing crazy, but) to get the most from cleansing process.
- Re-application of PBL Glass Coating.

PBL glass coating was applied to half windshield at a time.

Mist the applicator, then mist the 4 quarters of half windshield with the coating.

Rapidly spread it up / down to entire area, then side - to - side. Cover the corners and borders. Finish with no pressure on applicator trying to 'level it' up / down over entire area.

Repeat the other side.

Come back to first side using a quality MF to buff high spots. Repeat process on the remaining side.

Buffing high spots on windshield may need more elbow grease than when buffing on paint. Be sure to get plenty of light to assure even coverage and high spots removal.

I can't say about durability on this procedure, however it came out really great which makes me think reapplication was successful.

Will come back with updates on this one when customer come back to maintenance wash.

Hope that helps,

Kind Regards.

[Sizzle Chest]

Awesome experiment! Thanks for taking the time to do this and post it!