First time trying XMT 360

[damaged442]

As you can see from the title, I recently picked up some XMT 360 to see how well it would work on the swirls on my 09 Crystal Black Pearl Acura TSX. After washing and claying, I figured I'd try out a test spot on the rear of the car.

I have a PC with 5.5" LC CCS pads. I have six orange, six white and three blue, which I figured would be more than enough to do the whole car.

Based on the "least aggressive" methodology, I figured I'd start with the white pads, considering the blue ones seem like they would be good for some 845 application, not actual paint correction. I was pretty impressed with how it was going, and the progress I was making. Once I finished the back bumper and the rear of the decklid, I worked my way up to the top. (I felt as if I started low, and screwed it up, it wouldn't be as obvious...)

I didn't notice any micromarring, until I was working on the top of the decklid. In the right light, it is pretty obvious. I'm trying to think what I may have done wrong.

The rest of the rear of the car turned out OK. I'm wondering if I didn't apply enough pressure to help break it down while working on the top of the decklid. Would that cause the marring with the XMT 360? Maybe I was pressing harder around the curves and such and not as hard on the flat part of the panel.

I don't know, maybe I was just a little nervous and I didn't want to screw anything up. Being black, you can definitely see everything.

What do you think?

[Joseph Rogers]

What kind of residue control are you using?

[Mike Phillips]

That's the problem I explained in detail when I wrote this article...


High quality production detailing by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/76337-high-quality-production-detailing-mike-phillips.html)



In the article I stated that for the most part you can't use one-step cleaner/waxes on dark and black clearcoated cars because clear coats are so scratch sensitive that while you will remove one set of defects, (swirls, scratches, water spots and oxidation), the abrasives in most cleaner/waxes will tend to leave micro-marring behind.

And thus the reason in the above article I taught a different approach and that was to sue a fine cut polish and then follow it with a spray-on wax. The idea being to WORK FAST for people detailing cars for MONEY.

If you're just detailing your own cars the same issues apply but you don't have to work FAST like I did in the article you can take your time but you're going to be hard pressed to find any cleaner/wax that won't leave visible micro-marring on dark colored and black clearcoated cars.


I'd recommend clicking the link and reading the entire article but for those that won't here's the first post that pretty much lays it all out.


High quality production detailing by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/76337-high-quality-production-detailing-mike-phillips.html)


Normally the words high quality and production detailing don't go well together. Production detailing is the type of slop-n-glop work performed by people with little to no training and working under tight time requirements with low quality pads, products and tools.

The problem is not how to create a show car finish in the least amount of time, that's not production detailing that's show car detailing and that's not what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is how can a detailer do as few as steps as possible and still turn out a quality detail job that they can be proud of and their customer will love.

And... how can a detailer do this on clearcoated black daily drivers?

The normal procedure historically for doing production detailing is to use a one-step cleaner/wax for the paintwork after the normal steps of washing, drying and claying if the paint is contaminated.

While a one-step cleaner/wax, applied by machine might work well on light colored cars, the issue is this approach will tend to leave micro-marring or a light haze in the clear layer of paint on darker colors and the hardest color of all to work on and that's black paint.

The micro-marring tends to be caused by the abrasive technology together with the pad choice and even caused in part by the machine application as the action of the pad spinning and/or oscillating against the paint leaves a tale-tale sign from the process that shows up to our eyes as a hazy appearance.

Because most daily drivers tend to be trashed in the sense the paint is filled with swirls and scratches, in order to provide enough correction ability to create a visible and even dramatic visual difference, (in the eyes of your customer), some type of abrasive technology is needed together with some type of chemical cleaning ability plus any polishing oils and last but not the least important, some type of protection ingredients be they synthetic, naturally occurring or a blend of both.

Trying to clean, polish and protect a swirled out dark or black colored clearcoat finish is for the most part asking too much from today's available technology. It's pushing the envelope too far at least if one of your requirements is to put out high quality work you can associate with your name.


The problem
Doing more than two steps means investing more time into the exterior process and this is where too many detailers lose profit. As the saying goes, time is money. Doing two, three or more steps to the paint is fine if you're charging accordingly for it but high prices and production detailing are at the opposite end of the spectrum.

To be honest, at this time there isn't a perfect answer. So Here's a two part answer that might be just the ticket for you when you're asked to work on a trashed, black or dark colored daily driver.

The solution
Part of detailing cars is under promising but over delivering. This starts by you not promising to create a swirl and scratch free finish. Period.

Removing all or even a majority of the swirls and scratches out of any daily driver is a multiple step process and you need to charge for this type of work.

Instead, here's a pretty good solution to the problem and that's to do a 2-step where the focus of your attention is in the first step, removing "some" of the shallow swirls and scratches while restoring clarity to the clearcoat and the second step is using a spray-on wax to seal the paint.



:dunno:

[Mike Phillips]

Keep in mind, the problem starts with the paint itself. Modern clearcoat paints are scratch-sensitive.

This means that even though they are HARD... they scratch very easily and because the clearcoat layer of paint is laying over a layer of colored paint, the defects on and in the clear layer of paint are very easy for your eyes to see.


Here's an article that explains this issue in detail....


Clearcoats are Scratch-Sensitive (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/74234-clearcoats-scratch-sensitive.html)




:)

[Mike Phillips]

What kind of residue control are you using?


You talking about why a person needs to clean their pad OFTEN?



Why it's important to clean your pads often... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/28755-why-s-important-clean-your-pads-often.html)


ANYTIME you're abrading the surface whether you're using an aggressive cutting compound of an ultra fine polish, you have two things building up on the face of your buffing pad...

Spent product
Removed paint
You need to remove both of these substances from the face of the pad and the panel you're working on before you apply fresh product. If you don't,

Adding fresh product to spent product and removed paint adulterates the fresh product, it also dilutes it.
Buffing with a dirty pad will be more difficult.
The product will cake-up on the face of the pad.
The product will become gummy on the paint and hard to wipe off.
How to clean your pads and other options to make buffing clean again...

You can scrub the face of the pad with a nylon brush like a pad conditioning brush or even a nylon toothbrush
If using a Dual Action Polisher or a Rotary Buffer you can clean your pad on the fly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly-when-using-porter-cable-style-da-polisher.html) with a terry cloth towel
You can wash your pads in a bucket of water
You can wash your pads in a sink under running water
You can wash your pads in a pad washer
You can switch to a clean, dry pad
You can switch to a brand new pad
I just buffed out half the hood on an oxidized 1959 Cadillac and used the technique along with a nylon brush and it works adequately enough to allow me to work clean and get back to work quickly.


That's the whole idea behind cleaning your pad on the fly... you can remove a majority of the spent product and removed paint and then get back to running the buffer... buffing out an entire car already takes a l-o-n-g time... stopping to do some kind of pad cleaning procedure that isn't quick and easy keeps you from buffing on the paint.


Fast methods include,

Pad Washers
Cleaning your pad on the fly with a terry cloth towel
Using a nylon pad conditioning brush
Using a Spur if you're using a wool pad on a rotary buffer


Slow methods, (they might work well but they take you away from buffing on the car)

You can wash your pads in a bucket of water
You can wash your pads in a sink under running water


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Cleaning your pad often AND wiping all the residue off the panel you just buffed are incredibly important and if anyone not doing this as a normal part of their process when buffing out a car with ANYTHING is what I call,

Working backwards

And the reason for this is because if you don't remove the residue off the panel and off the pad, then you'll be grinding it back into the paint when add fresh product and start buffing again.

One of the most common questions asked about cleaning pads goes like this,

How often to I need to clean my pad?

And the answer is


After each section you buff.


Do it less and you increase the potential for problems.


See this article for a FAST way to clean your pad so you can get back to work...


How to clean your foam pad on the fly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html)



:xyxthumbs:

[Joseph Rogers]

You talking about why a person needs to clean their pad OFTEN?



No, I was asking him what HE was doing to control residue. Given your first post on the thread, my question seems to have become irrelevant as there are deeper issues...but that was where my mind went first for the potential problem.

[damaged442]

Thanks for the responses, gentlemen.

I used about 10 new MF towels total, ensuring everything was clean and residue free prior to proceeding onto the next section. I also switched pads often, and ended up using 4 pads for the limited area I worked on.

I think I know where you are going with the question, and I definitely didn't want to have a dirty pad or towel contribute to being part of the equation.

So the XMT 360 was most likely the wrong product choice for this application, being an AIO/one step on the dark paint?

I also have XMT#3 and XMT#1. Would they have been better choices?

Thanks again!!

[Mike Phillips]

No, I was asking him what HE was doing to control residue. Given your first post on the thread, my question seems to have become irrelevant as there are deeper issues...but that was where my mind went first for the potential problem.

Excess residue left on either the pad or the paint is a culprit that can cause micro-marring no matter what type of product, pad or tool a person uses.

I meet people even to day that are new to machine polishing that share their car detailing experience with me and sometimes it includes where they never once cleaned their pad as they worked around their car.

A normal practice to most of us is new information to people new to machine polishing so it was good to bring up the topic.



:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

09 Crystal Black Pearl Acura TSX.

Being black, you can definitely see everything.

What do you think?


Hondas, including Acuras are known to have softer paints and that could be part of the issue. If it were mine I would re-polish using a quality fine-cut polish like the Pinnacle Advanced Finishing Polish and this will remove any micro-marring.

You can get away with using one-step cleaner/waxes on light colored clearcoated cars but usually not dark and black cars due to the scratch-sensitive factor.

I won't use a one-step on black and dark colored cars and I know there are a lot of other detailers that have the same policy. You can get away with it if you're using a non-abrasive cleaner/wax like the Klasse AIO and possibly some other REALLY LIGHT cleaning cleaner/waxes marketed in the consumer world but anything with some bite to it could be an issue.





I didn't notice any micro-marring, until I was working on the top of the decklid. In the right light, it is pretty obvious. I'm trying to think what I may have done wrong.

The rest of the rear of the car turned out OK. I'm wondering if I didn't apply enough pressure to help break it down while working on the top of the decklid. Would that cause the marring with the XMT 360? Maybe I was pressing harder around the curves and such and not as hard on the flat part of the panel.



Micro-marring just like holograms, will show up BEST on a horizontal flat panel in bright light, like direct overhead sunlight.

On vertical panels and small curved panels it's likely still taking place it's just not going to be as apparent.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

I also have XMT#3 and XMT#1. Would they have been better choices?

Thanks again!!




You can try the XMT #1 to try to remove the micro-marring. I've used on on black paint before with success.

I tend to stick with the Pinnacle Twins for anything that's important to me or important to my customers.

Hang tight, I'm going to post some pictures of a Candy Apple Corvette as an example.



:)

[FrankS]

That's the problem I explained in detail when I wrote this article...


High quality production detailing by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/76337-high-quality-production-detailing-mike-phillips.html)



In the article I stated that for the most part you can't use one-step cleaner/waxes on dark and black clearcoated cars because clear coats are so scratch sensitive that while you will remove one set of defects, (swirls, scratches, water spots and oxidation), the abrasives in most cleaner/waxes will tend to leave micro-marring behind.

And thus the reason in the above article I taught a different approach and that was to sue a fine cut polish and then follow it with a spray-on wax. The idea being to WORK FAST for people detailing cars for MONEY.

If you're just detailing your own cars the same issues apply but you don't have to work FAST like I did in the article you can take your time but you're going to be hard pressed to find any cleaner/wax that won't leave visible micro-marring on dark colored and black clearcoated cars.

Thanks Mike for the explanation. I ran into the same problem when I was trying to do a one step using XMT 360 on a black Camaro several months ago. I had been using XMT 360 on some lighter colored cars and they came out looking great but when I used it on the black Camaro I could see the micro-marring using the swirl finder light and I was wondering why I wasn't getting the results I had before and now I know why.

[damaged442]

I did try to do my homework prior to ordering the 360. If you look at the description of the product itself, it shows where it was used on a black Honda CRV and a black Hummer H2, so I thought I'd be OK.

This forum has been a great learning experience, and I truly thank you for your input.

On the other hand, I can't wait to see what it will do on the silver TrailBlazer.

[KBsToy]

Used XMT 360 0n my Summit White Camaro and wifes Silver Coast Metallic CTS.

They came out great and I topped them off with Pinnacle XMT 180 High Gloss Carnauba Paste Wax (http://www.autogeek.net/xmt-180-carnauba-wax.html) for the pop :)

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