Question: How to improve detailing time using FLEX 3401?

[Tato]

Greetings.

When I've started polishing by hand it was taking too much time to achieve results I was looking for, so I went and ordered a G220v2.

Apart from getting the results I was looking for, I couldn't improve time involved in a detail. Fact is, I could do better with machine, so I was using the same time but now to achieve better results.

To improve time (and also quality), I went and ordered a FLEX 3401.

I'm still improving results, but time involved is pretty much the same.

(this is hypothetical, but I'll try to make it closer to real):

By hand: Correcting ~30-40% in 6 hours.

G220v2: Correcting ~75% in 6 hours

3401: Correcting 95%+ in 6 hours.

I know it's already a gain of time (huge), based only in correction quantity and quality.

My question is, ~how I can achieve the ~75% I was getting with G220v2 with the Flex, but in '3' hours instead of 6?

Faster arm speed? More speed on the polisher? Using my Menzerna products looks like I have to work them so long to properly break down, and that takes time. I mean, I cannot make 2-3 passes with FG400 and let it go. Product needs to be worked.

When I used G220v2, pad spin was slower, so was my arm speed. With the Flex, pad rotates great all time, but I still use slow arm speed - that's why correction level is almost 100%.

I want to know some tips for working faster with the Flex and still get 'whiplash' results. I've tried larger pads, and that worked, but I do prefer smaller pads for ~70% of the car.

Can someone share techniques to work faster with 3401 when you're not looking for ~99.9% correction all the time, but wanting a fair result?

I'll stop here, and let's see if we can move on this discussion. I have some other questions as well.

Thanks in advance for any support.

Kind Regards.

[ken tuep]

All that I can recommend is a smat compound, like M105. I can usually compound a vehicle in 2 hours with 75% correction, then get another 5-10% with M205.

I usually do 3-4 passes on speed 6 on a yellow cutting pad, or foamed wool. The 3-4 passes with a white pad to finish.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using AG Online

[Tato]

Thanks for answer, that looks straightforward. This tip would add a lot.

I'm running out of M105, and I'm willing to order M101 (I have a love/hate relationship with M105). Has anyone got experience with M101 and Flex 3401, and mainly Hybrid Pads?

I've heard a lot about M101 and MF discs greatness on DA, but I'm to use Foam Pads and 3401.

Thanks again,

Kind Regards.

[tuscarora dave]

As Ken tuep suggested, I agree that you'll get faster results using a compound with a SMAT abrasive instead of a DAT abrasive that needs to be broken down.

I'll also mention a technique that I have adopted and pretty much just do naturally as I compound now. That is to sort of apply a twisting pressure on the trigger handle of the machine in combination with downward pressure on the polisher head handle. So it's a fairly strong gripped twisting of the trigger handle to compress one side of the pad more than the other side. Which side of the pad gets more pressure? Well that depends on what part of the car I'm working on.

This twisting pressure (compressing one side of the pad over the other) combined with downward pressure applied by the other hand at the head of the polisher, increases the amount of bite the pad and the compound's abrasives have against the paint, speeding up correction.

You could essentially increase downward pressure only, by leaning on the polisher head to evenly compress the entire pad surface against the paint but in my experience with the 3401, this causes the machine to walk all over the panel being polished and you have much less control over the machine's travel path, not to mention the tendency for a panel to buckle under that much weight.

I don't want to use the term "edging the pad" because I'm not talking about tilting the head of the polisher so much that one side of the pad is completely off of the paint.

The twisting pressure I speak of puts maybe 70% to 80% of the pressure on one side of the pad and 30% or 20% pressure on the trailing side of the pad. So I always lead my arm travel direction with the more compressed side of the pad that is doing the brunt of the compounding, then the trailing side of the pad follows right after with 20-30% pressure applied and glosses things up a little more.

It's just something I do naturally and until now I've never really tried to describe it in text only, but this technique has shaved a lot of time off correction jobs for me.

I use a very slow arm speed when doing major correction, and can afford to increase my arm speed when doing lighter correction work. You just get a feel for it after a while.

I never take my Flex 3401 off of speed setting #6.

[Mike Phillips]

3401: Correcting 95%+ in 6 hours.




That's great correction and about right in time when doing multiple-step projects.


What type of work are you doing?

Production detailing

or

Show car detailing?


:)

[Tato]

Thank you all for answers.

@Dave, that's a Sir. answer, very helpful. I could get your point and I believe this will help me a lot. I also understood the difference between your technique and 'pad edging' pretty well. I need to deal some more to learn the Flex better, I'm just anxious to get there!

@Mike Phillips. Please, those times are only an estimate, my times are not exactly those above (sure I take more, lot more depending on project).

I've used the example above to express that apart of correction being fairly higher with 3401, time spent looks the same. I can do a lot more, in the same time. I'm willing to do a lot less, in (a lot if possible) less time when in high quality production .

Having to polish with slow arm speed and lots of passes with my Menzerna products, I couldn't found the common sense on how to keep me from trying 'full correction' whenever I can.

I mean, if I'm there, slowly, lots of passes, why not get the most I can? If I increase arm speed and do less passes, product simply won't work.

While reading and trying to answer your questions, I've thought that maybe FG400 on an orange pad for production work is too much... I should stick with medium/light polishes, maybe SMAT as suggested, AIO, and gain some time there.

My work is mixed, of course I can't call my work (yet) Show Car Detailing but I'm willing to do that as well.

For more 'dedicated' works, I'm getting 2, 3 days agreed with clients (generally full weekend), and time for compounding here is not a main concern.

I'm struggling at production, since I'm willing to do High Quality Production (I'm based on your most recent Quality Production Topic).

Whenever I have to do production I still can't keep myself from trying more correction than expected.

A day I've heard someone telling it's not good to 'answer a question with another question'. This is 'BS' (sorry), because you've just answered my question with the key question I should have done to myself:

What type of work are you doing?

No doubt I have to fully reformulate my Production area approach, I don't know why I was trying to do production somewhat like a 'fast version' of show car detailing procedures, but they should be treated way differently, even if I'm looking for 'show car results' on production.

As always, everyone here helped me a lot.

Thank you,

Kind Regards.

[tuscarora dave]

The important part for me is to have 100% clear communication "up front" with the customer, so it is crystal clear to them that a $250 production detail doesn't mean perfectly corrected paint, but rather clean, shiny and with some level of protection. Same principles must apply to the interior as well.

If I want to make $50 per hour, it means I need to accomplish the above in just 5 hours by myself. In such a scenario there is no time for more than one polishing step for the paint, period. So for me it's the flex 3401 and my go to "all in one" product and a maximum of 2 hours spent on the paint work. I can easily accomplish this using the 3401.

Anything more simply isn't production detailing. Get your arse handed to you on jobs often enough, trying to do more for the same amount of money, having the overhead of having a shop, you learn this lesson very quickly.

Looking and behaving professional, and actually making all the requirements of being professional happen can be worlds apart. When you jump from the frying pan (doing this as a side gig) into the fire (being all legit with a shop and all it's overhead costs) you learn these lessons pretty hard and fast or you sink.

[lawrenceSA]

Dave and Tato, the last 3 posts by you guys are why I love this forum.

So much of what you said struck a chord, while I am sitting here on my sofa in South Africa sipping a whiskey after a long day at work.

To have the opportunity to learn, interact, share and grow, as a detailer and as a person, all at no cost, and with respect, from the comfort of my own home is absolutely priceless.

There are not many places left where this is possible, especially online.

AG Online rocks! And its thanks to each and everyone here who contributes in the manner in which they do.

:thumbup:

[lawrenceSA]

Dave, in your opinion would the technique you describe above when using a flex be applicable/effective when using a traditional DA?

[Tato]

Thanks a lot Dave, I've complemented my reading taking a careful watch at you gorgeous website. Nice services you offer, 'Huh!?'! Congratulations on that.

I've found this article and it was also a great pleasure to read:
: Tuscarora Dave's Mobile Auto Detailing (http://www.tdmad.com/store/article_info.php?articles_id=1)

Thanks for everything.

Great input Lawrence, good to see that my questions answered added to you as much as they added to me.

Kind Regards.

[antti@561detailing]

Very good info here...Dave, what is your aio product?

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

Rafael,

Seems like you are doing just fine within the time frame you listed. Also seeing that you like the smaller pads on the Flex this will somewhat hinder your completion time as you are not covering as large of areas like you would with the 6.5" pads.

Maybe another thing to try to help speed up your time frame would be using the larger pads with smat products as you can stop the buffing cycle at any point.

For me while doing my corrective work with the 3401 and Menzerna products, my compounding session was taking 6-8 hours depending on vehicle. Another thing to consider is the pad size on the type of vehicle.

I also prefer the smaller 5" pad with the Flex even though it takes longer to buff out a car.

Just wanted to give my perspective.

[lawrenceSA]

Rafael,

Seems like you are doing just fine within the time frame you listed. Also seeing that you like the smaller pads on the Flex this will somewhat hinder your completion time as you are not covering as large of areas like you would with the 6.5" pads.

Maybe another thing to try to help speed up your time frame would be using the larger pads with smat products as you can stop the buffing cycle at any point.

For me while doing my corrective work with the 3401 and Menzerna products, my compounding session was taking 6-8 hours depending on vehicle. Another thing to consider is the pad size on the type of vehicle.

I also prefer the smaller 5" pad with the Flex even though it takes longer to buff out a car.

Just wanted to give my perspective.

I am somewhat relieved to hear that you are taking around 6 to 8 hours to compound.... my times are similar and I always thought I was slow.... and yes, this is with a DA and Menz (DAT) based products.

As a matter of interest, how long does the refinining polishing step then take you Mike?

[Tato]

Dear Mike,

As always, you came with great info.

I've changed my mind after reading all the feedback from you, I was willing to keep using FG400 + Orange pad (followed by LSP) as 1-step even for some 'production' work, but now I know better it's certainly overkilling.

Fact is, this compounding step takes longer, because it is what removes the greatest percentage of defects (compared to other things I've cited).

Also, you have to work it slower and for more passes, even at lower speeds (I'm using 3-4 like you (smack) recommended, and achieving flawless results).

What I wouldn't like to hear ( ;) ), is that I should keep my FG400 combo for 'Show Car Detailing' style of work, and reach, let's say, PF2500 and a white pad for production, or a SMAT product, etc.

It'll work faster, but also will leave more defects than FG400 + Hybrid Orange. I just have to live with some swirls and scratches when in production, that I'm seeing is being the hardest lesson to learn.

I was willing to use FG400 'faster' to get faster results, but I believe we concluded it's barely possible. Maybe I should 'reserve it' for shiny spots and use a faster product on the rest, when in production.

Mike Phillips question's answered mine. What Kind of Work...?

So, it's up to me grab the right product to get the job I'm doing, done.

And if I grab the Hybrid Orange + FG400 for whole car in production, I'll have to add at least 5-6 more hours of work to get what it'll give me.

I've just 'found' that this point is what's making me 'work for peanuts' when in production.

For more 'Elaborated' Detailing, I'm doing just fine with FG400 and the techniques you are helping me to develop and improve, and elaborated details means no peanuts!

Thank you all for answering,

Kind Regards.

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

I am somewhat relieved to hear that you are taking around 6 to 8 hours to compound.... my times are similar and I always thought I was slow.... and yes, this is with a DA and Menz (DAT) based products.

As a matter of interest, how long does the refinining polishing step then take you Mike?

Hi Lawrence,

When doing my corrective work and knowing that I can get FG400 to finish down extremely well if worked properly and long enough, I usually knock off 2 hours or so of polishing time.

Sometimes depending on vehicle I will switch out to a larger white pad such as the 6.5" Hybrid and SF4000 to cover more area. Also knowing that the surface is near LSP ready with my first step and FG400, I dont have to spend nearly as much time polishing