Own a classic...but at what price?!

[Rcrew]

The E39 M5 (96-03)...know by many simply as "the beast". This car received huge praise when it was released, particularly from '01-'03. Fantastic power, handling, braking, plus you could seat 4 and still throw luggage in the trunk. To me, it is a classy, fantastically styled car and represents a terrific balance of everything you could want in a vehicle. I have no doubt they will be considered a "classic" and be sought after by car collectors. I would love to own one.

To cut to the chase, an acquaintance of mine has owned one since new. It is a 2002, with approximately 170k on it. It is essentially stock, without performance modification. Items that were added are: clear bra (front end, A pillars, back fascia), bluetooth phone integration, and all weather mats. He has all maintenance paperwork, and all work was performed at either the dealer or local performance shop. Although I haven't looked through it, I understand that all maintenance is up to date.

The car is really in good shape aesthetically, especially for the miles. Paint, leather, wheels etc...He has babied it and it has never been tracked.

I have been talking with him for over a year now, letting him know to contact me when he is ready to sell. At one point last summer he expressed to me that he would love to sell it to someone he knows and is local. In addition, he told me that he wanted to get between 8-10k for it. At that point it had 150k or so. He also told me that he would probably be ready to sell within the next year.

Fast forward to today, when I called him up to check in. He told me that he was ready to sell and actually had posted it to some online car sale sites. He apologized for forgetting to contact me and told me that he did have one out of state offer for $12k. He is listing the car for $15k, but told me that he would like to get $13k out of it. Although I was definitely shocked at this change, I told him I would look at the postings and get back to him. I wanted to get my thoughts together before questioning him harder to justify the pricing and the change since this summer.

I also wanted to pick your brains and get any advice you folks may have.
At this point, I realize that these cars are getting more rare and are considered a classic. This justifies to me a sale price higher than the $5-7k on kbb.com or other car sale websites. However, I am having a lot of trouble breaking past $10k, especially for something high miles with really no performance mods. I think most of you would agree with this line of thinking, but please let me know your advice, including any strategies for negotiating this price down.

Thanks!!!

[Flash Gordon]

Tell your guy good luck. No one in their right mind is going to pay his price

Tell him your offer of $9500 is open (I would be very reluctant to pay that much IMO)

[Rockeey]

told me that he did have one out of state offer for $12k.
Thanks!!!

A lot of these "offers" never make it very far. There are a LOT of tire-kickers out there who never actually pull the trigger. The fact that a 'premium' offer came from an out-of-state sight unseen buyer greatly reduces the odds that anything will ever materialize.

I agree with Flash....just politely refresh his memory about your previous conversation(s) and let him know what you are willing to pay. Do your homework and decide what the maximum amount is that you are willing to pay and stick to it. Buyers remorse is an unpleasant thing to experience (especially on big ticket items) so best if you don't put yourself in that position and have regrets about the purchase.

Best of luck !!

[Romans5.8]

I bet that 'out of state' offer is going to be a check or money order, and that they'll want him to ship the car (but they'll deal with shipping, the truck will be by any day to pick it up!). The bolder variant of this scam involves the car actually being stolen, but, the more common one is either asking him to pay for the shipping, then when it gets there they'll pay him for the car (or something similar), or they'll 'accidentally' sent a check for too much, ask him to refund them the excess, then they'll stop the check.

KBB isn't the end-all be-all, but it's a pretty good guide. Also, tell him not to look at what other cars are listed for. Craigslist doesn't show you what it actually sold for- all it does is shows you what people are ASKING for it. I could list my pet rock for $10 million, doesn't make it worth that!

[FUNX650]

"Don't let the stars get in your eyes..."

An arrangement for a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) at your nearest friendly BMW dealership is definitely in order for this high-mileage vehicle.

That'd be Money well spent, IMO...before the big bucks are lain down on the table.

:)

Bob

[valleyrider]

Remember that with a car that old and with that many miles you will need to put money into it to keep it performing in top condition. Many things will need to be replaced due to wear and age, its the expensive things that will start popping up to be replaced soon if not already needed. At that I would still not spend over $10K on it. Also triple check the electronics on it, BMW's start getting many electrical gremlins after 100k miles typically.

Also are you looking to have this be a daily driver or a collectors car? That's a TON of miles for a collector car if that is your plan with it.

[cardaddy]

You must want this car something FIERCE is all I can figure. :eek: Two words, "Used Car"! Nothing will change that, it's a used car... and at 170,000 plus miles it's a REALLY used car. No amount of collectability will offset 170,000 miles, EVER, not 10 years from now if you only drive it 10 miles a year.

My dad had a fever for a car like that one time. Dad was an Oldsmobile guy most of his life. Then around his late 60's he turned into a Cadillac guy. Drove them till he was 90. :)

The guy next door to him had a 84 Coupe D'Ville that was in better than showroom new condition. BUT... it wasn't leather, (more like maroon velvet) and it wasn't a V8, had some sort of weird V6 in it. But the guy was so anal about the car that if a piece of molding got a nick in it he would go to the dealership and put all new moldings on it. Carpet got a wear spot on it and he had the dealership pull the seats out and put new carpet in it. Same thing for the weather stripping. Every nut and bolt on that thing was better than new. Heck he'd change the hose clamps if they started looking tarnished. He was the 80's version of today's AutoGeek FOR SURE! :buffing: He was always out there, 'wax on - wax off'.

So the car was I don't know I'd say 10 years old and my Dad was dying to buy it from the guy. Of course he didn't NEED it, already had one, a NEWER ONE AT THAT. But he really loved that car, and my Mom really loved it too. After all, it was a Coupe D'Ville. :laughing: Dad asked me what I thought about it so I went and looked. Sure enough, it was clean, I mean beyond clean. You could eat off the engine. But it was STILL A TEN YEAR OLD CADILLAC. I told my Dad that the car was worth MAYBE $2850 with the mileage @ only 50,000, (mainly because of the V6, which I didn't even realize they put in those big barges). But the guy wanted $3800 for it, CASH. And he wouldn't budge.

What did my Dad do? He bought it! I wanted to beat him with a stick!!!!! Seriously, there is no point where that made any sense what-so-ever. But he wanted it, and more importantly my MOTHER wanted it. They ended up driving that car till the day my Mother passed away in 2003. Big ol' white Coupe D'Ville. Most people wouldn't have wanted it, but they did. Car never skipped a beat. And my Dad.... well he never washed the engine either. :laughing: He just didn't believe you should put a hose on your engine, so he didn't. :eek:

Once Mom passed though.... Dad couldn't stand to look at it and went out and bought a 4 year old 70,000 mile D'Ville D'Elegance, the same one I have in my garage to this day. That car he paid $16.7K for (out the door) and new it was $47K.

I'd look seriously at that M5's service history. Cooling parts @ 5~6 years need replacing. Lots and LOTS of other regular and expensive maintenance to keep the twin kidneys (and 3-pointed stars) both running their best, and more importantly BRINGING their best. Suspension bushings all around with that kind of miles ALL need replacing. Torque couplings in the driveline are shot (if not replaced by 120K) and by now they'll need it again. Just a lot of little gremlins start popping up once they get that many miles on them. I used to hang around both MB and BMW shops quite a bit. Crazy money spent keeping those cars at the top of the price sheets, really insane money actually. Especially when you consider the reliability isn't any better than any decently built GM or Ford product of it's day. Durability though actually might not even be as good on a number of parts. The old "six of one, half a dozen of another" thing comes into play. Have to remember, they were typically "driven" and being so it's a bit harder on them than your typical big sedan. And yes, I realize you said he didn't "track" the car, but then again, how many guys actually do go out on track day in their family sedan? (And those that do, pay the price in broken parts and an even higher cost of operation.) Jus' sayin'.... ;)

Sure no argument, not a lot of them for sale. Doesn't make them worth a lot, just means that there are not a lot out there. Not many people wanted to shell out over $70K on them back in 2001 when they were new. At the end of the day though it sounds like he's looking at retail prices on Auto Trader. Seems one dealer has the market cornered on low mileage units (like they want darned near full cost new for them). That has me concerned as it's very easy to run back digital odometers these days. :dunno:

But if you want one for the "collectability of it" then you should be looking for as low a mileage one as you can possibly afford. Other than that, if it's for transportation, (and even then only occasionally out for a sunny day drive) then you'll never make money on it. EVER! I'd still stick to my guns though on less than 10K. Just too many things to go wrong. Unless he has meticulous records and has spent literally tens of thousands on it keeping it up. Not just the things that break, but ANYTHING that might even LOOK like it'll break would have to already been taken care of. Like my Dad's neighbor did with his 10 year old Cadillac. :xyxthumbs:

Only person that can really answer what works for YOU would be Y-O-U. ;) I'm just saying unless you're paying cash (for the opportunity cost) that the operating cost all on it's own isn't going to be cheap. Insurance, tires, and factory BMW parts, plus not so good gas mileage are but a few things that come to mind. Adding any sort of payment to that and you're back into new car territory cost per mile/operationally speaking.

[Rmd]

My buddy is a BMW mechanic who owns a BMW only repair shop. My e46 was in earlier this week for routine service and instead of the shop loaner he threw me the keys to one of his personal cars which was an 01 M5 with a 6 speed manual with about 110k miles on it. He bought it from a long time customer of his because he knew the history of the car. Needless to say, the car was a blast to drive. I was stuck on the freeway in traffic for the drive to work and was impressed with how tight and responsive the car was. But then...I got it out of traffic and was able to drop the hammer on it. Holy crap! Beast is the first word that came to my mind. Above 4k rpm the thing just wanted to pull all the way to redline, and I was only able to do it in third. He says it pulls the same way in 4th and 5th. 120, 130 happens so easily you don't even realize it. The speed is deceptively sneaky.

I had half a thought of buying it after driving it for the day. That being said, his summation of the car is "eats gas, eats tires, eats parts." This one was in great condition, as to be expected from a car owned by a BMW enthusiast and mechanic, but although he is going to sell it soon, he talked me out of buying it. He told me that he works on a lot of them for regular customers and even conservatively driven it will take about $3-4k per year to properly maintain it. He's looking for about $10k for his.

Don't think I would bite on the one you are describing at $13k, although I of course haven't seen it. For a couple grand more, and a diligent hunting process, you can certainly find a well cared for e46 M3 with less than 100k miles on it, which would be pretty darn fun in its own right and would have a lot more life with much less maintenance cost. Not an M5, but a heck of a lot of bang for the buck if you want an M in that kind of price range.

[jpegs13]

"Don't let the stars get in your eyes..."

An arrangement for a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) at your nearest friendly BMW dealership is definitely in order for this high-mileage vehicle.

That'd be Money well spent, IMO...before the big bucks are lain down on the table.

:)

Bob

Very sound advice indeed. That's a lot of miles for a car, any car, be careful, some parts have a limited life span, you may wind up spending tons of money on upkeep in the future. Get the service records to see what components have been replaced

[Rcrew]

Wow. Well first off, I wanted to thank all of you who took time and posted up such thoughtful responses!!! I really appreciate the insights, this is the kind of thing that makes this community great.

To clarify a few themes that have been brought up in your posts:
*I wouldn't pay a dime over 9k worst case
*Car would absolutely be subjected to a PPI at the shop of my choosing
*This car would not be a garage queen or 'put on a shelf'. It would be a DD. Worked hard and enjoyed!! Stored in a garage when not being driven.
*I'm not out-of-my-head for this car. Your comments are really helping me maintain that resolve.


At this point I plan on having a conversation with the owner to see what his thoughts are on the price. Might even arrange a test drive.

Really looking for something performance oriented and enjoyable to drive. It needs to haul the wife, kids, groceries or detail supplies. Been thinking about an '07 RS4 as well...

[valleyrider]

If you want performance and you like the M3 why not go for a 335? you can pick up an 07' just above $10k and you still get 300 HP, just not 333 HP of an 02' M3

[cardaddy]

Wow. Well first off, I wanted to thank all of you who took time and posted up such thoughtful responses!!! I really appreciate the insights, this is the kind of thing that makes this community great.

To clarify a few themes that have been brought up in your posts:
*I wouldn't pay a dime over 9k worst case
*Car would absolutely be subjected to a PPI at the shop of my choosing
*This car would not be a garage queen or 'put on a shelf'. It would be a DD. Worked hard and enjoyed!! Stored in a garage when not being driven.
*I'm not out-of-my-head for this car. Your comments are really helping me maintain that resolve.


At this point I plan on having a conversation with the owner to see what his thoughts are on the price. Might even arrange a test drive.

Really looking for something performance oriented and enjoyable to drive. It needs to haul the wife, kids, groceries or detail supplies. Been thinking about an '07 RS4 as well...

All good to hear! :dblthumb2:

I too was thinking why not the M3? Didn't bring it up as it's not what you said you wanted. :dunno:

Plenty of "fun factor" and actually a better driving experience. ;)

[MattyL]

I currently own an e39 ('00 540i) with 67,000 miles on the clock, yet it's off the road every few months for this, that, or the other; frozen brake calipers, water pump failure, valve cover gaskets, etc. I have been able to do all the work myself, so i save money, but spending hour after hour wrenching on this thing in my free time is getting OLD. Unless your pockets are deep enough to have any repairs done at a shop or you are comfortable navigating the s62 motor and m5 suspension setup yourself, this car is not for the faint of heart, especially given the mileage.

If you can have the $$$ and the know-how though, by all means go for it; the e39's are great cars to drive.

Start reading up on the car and doing your homework if you haven't already: BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/)

[cardaddy]

Wow. Well first off, I wanted to thank all of you who took time and posted up such thoughtful responses!!! I really appreciate the insights, this is the kind of thing that makes this community great.

To clarify a few themes that have been brought up in your posts:
*I wouldn't pay a dime over 9k worst case
*Car would absolutely be subjected to a PPI at the shop of my choosing
*This car would not be a garage queen or 'put on a shelf'. It would be a DD. Worked hard and enjoyed!! Stored in a garage when not being driven.
*I'm not out-of-my-head for this car. Your comments are really helping me maintain that resolve.


At this point I plan on having a conversation with the owner to see what his thoughts are on the price. Might even arrange a test drive.

Really looking for something performance oriented and enjoyable to drive. It needs to haul the wife, kids, groceries or detail supplies. Been thinking about an '07 RS4 as well...

All good to hear! :dblthumb2:

I too was thinking why not the M3? Didn't bring it up as it's not what you said you wanted. :dunno:

Plenty of "fun factor" and actually a better driving experience. ;)

If you want to stay in a RWD sports sedan you could check out the mid-year M45's. When they came out they were aiming hard at the 3 & 5 Series, and in review after review (for the driving experience) they beat up on 'um. ;) Reasonably well built, nice ride, and not terribly slow, not by a LONG shot! :dblthumb2:

Here's what Edmunds said about the M45:
The Infiniti is the hot rod of this group. It has the largest and most powerful engine, the largest wheels and tires, the most powerful brakes, the firmest suspension, and it out accelerates the others like they're tied to a post. It's also the most entertaining to drive, with a transmission that actually matches revs like a good driver does when downshifting a true manual, and a well-balanced chassis that rewards advanced driving technique.

Those puppies are a business mans sure sleeper without a doubt. Im the MAN

[Rmd]

I'll weigh back in on this after you clarified your needs a bit. Hauling around wife and kids takes my earlier M3 suggestion off the table. Since its going to be a daily driver that also a major factor. Car buying is always part emotional, I mean we are all car guys or we wouldn't be on this forum, right? But it also needs to be financial and that is relative to your situation. With 170k on it that car in all probability has about 40-50k miles left on it before it hits the point where the motor will need to be cracked open or heads pulled off or something driveline related that will be cost-prohibitive to fix compared to the value of the car. So it has a finite useful lifespan. Between then and now, it will definitely cost you $3-4k per year to maintain if its within typical range.

I would think about it this way, it will break in the next few years, probably frequently, the gamble factor is whether it will break small before it breaks big. If it does break big will you be comfortable walking away from it with fond memories and then moving on to the next car without it being a major financial hit? Or will you be okay with it if it has to go to the shop at inconvenient times, i.e. have another car available or flexibility in job to deal with the unexpected lack of transportation? If so, go for it, burn the tires off that sucker; it will be a blast. If not, it will take all the fun out of it if after that first $500 service or $1200 unplanned repair you are crossing your fingers every time you drive it that it won't break big that day. If the budget can't justify that kind of uncertainty, there are a lot of other choices out there that will be more satisfying for you. The 535i suggestion above is a good one, still risk, but a twin turbo upside and better odds of avoiding a checking account wipeout prognosis from the mechanic.