Help identifying soft and hard paint on a car?

[cheekyage]

Hey guys,

I am wanting to know how to determine if a car has soft or hard paint?

Would one be easier or harder to work with when cutting, polishing or finishing?

[sn0w]

Least aggressive method first - trial by fire

[geekdout]

Well there is no way to determine the hardness of paint by just looking at it. You have to do a test spot and check your results.
You can even have paint of varying hardness on the same car, one section could have been resprayed or sometimes paint on plastic bumpers can be softer.

[cheekyage]

After doing a test spot, how would I know if the paint is hard or soft?

Is 'hard' interpreted as being hard to remove defects and rids?

Still learning here and appreciate your info so far :)

[theblob640]

If using the most least aggressive gets you pretty much 80%+ correction, I think it is safe to say you have soft paint. Where as if it pretty much gets you no where and you have to bump it up in aggressiveness, the paint will be harder.

[wdmaccord]

After doing a test spot, how would I know if the paint is hard or soft?

Is 'hard' interpreted as being hard to remove defects and rids?

Still learning here and appreciate your info so far :)

I think what everyone is trying to say is not to worry as much about whether the paint is hard or soft, but rather rely on your test spot(s) using least aggressive method and progressing from there until you achieve your desired results. I think if you take that approach on every job, you won't have to worry about the hardness/softness of the paint. Hope that helps. :xyxthumbs:

[geekdout]

If you have not checked it out already I would recommend checking out the polish/compound comparison chart and the paint hardness chart. You can find them under product charts and graphs. Its also a good idea to check out some of Mike Phillips videos and threads.

[AC in OC]

I put this together a while back and has grown from the input from everyone else who have their own experiences with various paint types:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/showthread.php?t=65039Paint Hardness Spreadsheet.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using AG Online

[Love's Auto]

If you can mar the paint with touching it with your hand I'd say it's soft.

[cheekyage]

If you have not checked it out already I would recommend checking out the polish/compound comparison chart and the paint hardness chart. You can find them under product charts and graphs.

Where can I find the above polish/compound and paint hardness charts?

[AC in OC]

Here: Product Charts and Graphs - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-charts-graphs/)

[zmcgovern45]

After doing a test spot, how would I know if the paint is hard or soft?

Is 'hard' interpreted as being hard to remove defects and rids?

Still learning here and appreciate your info so far :)
^There are many characteristics that will help you to determine if a vehicle has hard or soft paint.

First, you need to establish your control variables... these are things that will not change and will help you to compare the paint to others that you have worked on. For me, I tend to begin my test spots with something like Meguiar's M205 and a White 5.5" LC Polishing Pad. I also try to use the same machine, machine speed, arm speed, and pressure.

Essentially, make as many of the variables constant so that the only thing you are measuring is how the paint reacts to that process... make sense?

So once you have your product/pad/technique figured out, here is what you are looking for to help determine paint hardness.

Paint is hardly improved - most swirls and scratches remain. This would indicate harder paint. A more aggressive pad and product would most likely be needed to produce the results you are looking for.

Paint is somewhat improved - 50% of swirls are gone, but all deeper defects remain. I would call this "moderately hard". Depending on the level of correction you are seeking, you may only need to use either a more aggressive product or a more aggressive pad, but maybe not both. If you are looking to eliminate the majority of deeper defects, you may need to increase both product and pad aggressiveness.

Paint is nicely improved - Light swirls are gone, but deeper defects (RIDS) remain. This would indicate average paint to me. I find that M205 + White polishing pad should be able to remove swirls, but not necessarily RIDS. If you want a bit more correction, stepping up to an orange light cutting pad is a good option at this point. It is also important to also make sure the paint is finishing down well without marring.

Paint is very much improved - 90% correction, swirls are gone and only the deepest of RIDS remain. If you are getting this type of correction with M205 + white pad, I would assume you are working on soft paint. At this point, you may notice micro marring (especially on darker colors). If this is the case, you may want to step down to a black finishing pad and see if you are able to achieve similar cutting results, but finish down better.

*This is just my sort of thought process as I am working on test spots for a single polishing step... ie a job where I will ONLY be polishing once, not compound + polish or polish + jeweling. If you have the intentions of compounding first to remove heavier defects, your goals of the test spots will change. For instance, I would be looking for more correction of deeper defects, and I would not necessarily be concerned with marring since I would be following up with a polishing process to refine the haze left by compounding.




I think what everyone is trying to say is not to worry as much about whether the paint is hard or soft, but rather rely on your test spot(s) using least aggressive method and progressing from there until you achieve your desired results. I think if you take that approach on every job, you won't have to worry about the hardness/softness of the paint. Hope that helps. :xyxthumbs:
^Basically, yes.

I would not say it is always best to start with "the very least aggressive method". For instance, I doubt anyone here starts their test spots with SF4500 and a Crimson Ultra Fine Finishing Pad for each car? However, it is certainly not smart to jump straight to a cutting pad and compound even if you are working on paint in very poor shape. You might be surprised at what you can achieve with a medium or fine polish on softer paint... even if it looks completely trashed to begin with. That is why I typically start with something relatively non-aggressive and that works well on most cars like the M205 + white pad.

Now, there are certainly times where experience plays a factor in my test spots. For instance, having worked on many vehicles, I do know when some tend to be softer. In these instances, like most jet black paints, I will often start with a less aggressive pad and/or product.

-Zach

[cardaddy]

After doing a test spot, how would I know if the paint is hard or soft?

Is 'hard' interpreted as being hard to remove defects and rids?

Still learning here and appreciate your info so far :)

You are on the right track there. ;)

Take 2 cars, same pad, same polish, say Megs 205. One it takes most of the swirls out, the other looks unchanged. The second one would be 'hard'. ;)




If you can mar the paint with touching it with your hand I'd say it's soft.

DUDE.... was that your hand print on my freaking car!?!? :laughing:


^There are many characteristics that will help you to determine if a vehicle has hard or soft paint.

First, you need to establish your control variables... these are things that will not change and will help you to compare the paint to others that you have worked on. For me, I tend to begin my test spots with something like Meguiar's M205 and a White 5.5" LC Polishing Pad. I also try to use the same machine, machine speed, arm speed, and pressure.

Essentially, make as many of the variables constant so that the only thing you are measuring is how the paint reacts to that process... make sense?

So once you have your product/pad/technique figured out, here is what you are looking for to help determine paint hardness.

Paint is hardly improved - most swirls and scratches remain. This would indicate harder paint. A more aggressive pad and product would most likely be needed to produce the results you are looking for.

Paint is somewhat improved - 50% of swirls are gone, but all deeper defects remain. I would call this "moderately hard". Depending on the level of correction you are seeking, you may only need to use either a more aggressive product or a more aggressive pad, but maybe not both. If you are looking to eliminate the majority of deeper defects, you may need to increase both product and pad aggressiveness.

Paint is nicely improved - Light swirls are gone, but deeper defects (RIDS) remain. This would indicate average paint to me. I find that M205 + White polishing pad should be able to remove swirls, but not necessarily RIDS. If you want a bit more correction, stepping up to an orange light cutting pad is a good option at this point. It is also important to also make sure the paint is finishing down well without marring.

Paint is very much improved - 90% correction, swirls are gone and only the deepest of RIDS remain. If you are getting this type of correction with M205 + white pad, I would assume you are working on soft paint. At this point, you may notice micro marring (especially on darker colors). If this is the case, you may want to step down to a black finishing pad and see if you are able to achieve similar cutting results, but finish down better.

*This is just my sort of thought process as I am working on test spots for a single polishing step... ie a job where I will ONLY be polishing once, not compound + polish or polish + jeweling. If you have the intentions of compounding first to remove heavier defects, your goals of the test spots will change. For instance, I would be looking for more correction of deeper defects, and I would not necessarily be concerned with marring since I would be following up with a polishing process to refine the haze left by compounding.




^Basically, yes.

I would not say it is always best to start with "the very least aggressive method". For instance, I doubt anyone here starts their test spots with SF4500 and a Crimson Ultra Fine Finishing Pad for each car? However, it is certainly not smart to jump straight to a cutting pad and compound even if you are working on paint in very poor shape. You might be surprised at what you can achieve with a medium or fine polish on softer paint... even if it looks completely trashed to begin with. That is why I typically start with something relatively non-aggressive and that works well on most cars like the M205 + white pad.

Now, there are certainly times where experience plays a factor in my test spots. For instance, having worked on many vehicles, I do know when some tend to be softer. In these instances, like most jet black paints, I will often start with a less aggressive pad and/or product.

-Zach

:goodpost: Zach! :)

What I would add is the part that you've seen me say before about test spots. Use 1 compound with up to 3 spots, up to 3 pads. Or same pad, just different speeds (arm and machine) for instance. And of course different pads, different compounds.

Compounds meaning compounding liquid, polishing liquid, finishing liquid whatever. Just that you need to first learn what THAT material with THAT pad does on at least similar paints, one to another. Now if that is a compound you work with it, and whatever pads you have to hone down to the best results. NEXT you move on to how to get the best results from your polishing step on THAT test spot with THAT paint.

There are no blanket statements that apply either. Although it's been known that say modern Corvette's have generally been known to be on the 'hard' side. For that matter most all GM cars are, not ALL, but most. Subaru for instance has been the bane of owners and detailers alike, diving in with a buffer and ending up micromarred all to heck and back. :rolleyes: Infiniti with there 'self correcting' paint isn't supposed to show swirls. I call BS on that one! (Mine swirls when you look at it, but that may just be me.) :laughing: