Tiny pad foam bits shedding during compounding

[MJT]

Hi guys, this is another question on the back of my other posts re my ccs orange pads getting to hot during the compounding stage. I noticed that during the compounding the orange pad would shed loads of tiny bits of foam such that during each section of a panel the car would be covered in thousands of orange foam 'crumbs'. I was worried that i was dry buffing, but I was using three pee sized amounts of m105 and this problem would start immediately.

Is this normal and just friction at work against the pad? I never had this problem during the polishing or waxing stage.

[Evan.J]

Sounds like too much heat is being generated and causing the pad to fail.

This would be things like too much product being soaked into the pad, too much long term downward pressure at high speeds.

[Mike Phillips]

Well keep in mind the correction step is the most aggressive and destructive step to everything involved...

The paint
The pad
The product (it's being destroyed as you use it by design)
The tool
You're hands

Compound, or as I call it in my how-to book, The Major Correction Step, (which is what it is), is the hardest step, the longest step and also the most important step.

As far as using pea sized drop...

I tend to use at least dime sized drops as you need not only abrasives on the surface but a working film of lubrication to enable the pad to rotate and ocillate effectivley, so try using a little more product.

I cover this in my how-to book and in this article...

How to prime a foam pad when using a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/35292-how-prime-foam-pad-when-using-da-polisher.html)


Here are 3 ways to apply product to your pad.

1. Priming the pad then adding product to work with

Priming a clean, dry pad is considered the best approach for using a DA Polisher because it ensures that 100% of the working surface of the pad is wet with product and working at maximum efficiency when you turn the polisher on. I originally learned of this technique from my friend Kevin Brown.

Priming the pad also ensures that you don't have any dry portion of the pad working over the paint un-lubricated. This really isn't a risk because since you're just starting out you're going to be removing defects a lot more serious than would be caused by any portion of the pad that is dry and spinning against the paint.

Plus, after just a few passes, the product you apply to specific areas of the face of the pad will migrate over the entire face of the pad and it will do this rather quickly when you're on the higher speed settings.



Priming the Pad - For clean, dry pads
Start with a clean, dry pad and add some fresh product to be spread out to the face of the pad. Using your finger, spread the product out over the pad and then using your finger work it into the pores of the pad. Don't saturate the pad, just use enough product to make sure that 100% of the working face of the pad has product coverage.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad02.jpg


Work the product around the face of the pad and into the pores
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad03.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad04.jpg


Any extra, take and apply to the outer edge until 100% of the working face of the pad is primed with product.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad05.jpg



As an option you can also prime the outer edge. This helps if you're buffing around convex curves or around panels that the edge of your buffing pad may come into contact with, like spoilers, side mirror housings, curved panels etc.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad06.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad07.jpg


Primed and ready to add "Working Product" to.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad09.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad08.jpg




Adding "Working Product" to the primed pad
Some people will recommend 3 to 4 pea size drops of product as the proper amount of product to use and this can be correct for concentrated products or working small sections and if you follow this advice make sure you are not under-lubricating the surface being worked.

Pea size drops of product
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad10.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad11.jpg



For some products and paint conditions, you may want more product on the surface working for you. Here's an example of dime size drops of product.

Dime size drops of product
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad12.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad13.jpg



:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

Here's a related article...


Wet Buffing Technique (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/36237-wet-buffing-technique.html)


The Wet Buffing Technique
Most compounds and polishes should be used so that there is enough product on the surface to maintain a wet film while the product is being worked. The wetness of the product is lubricating the paint as the abrasives abrade the paint and cushion or buffer the abrading action so the abrasives don’t simply scour the finish leaving behind what we call micro-marring or hazing the paint.

Micro-marring, Hazing or Tick Marks
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/MicromarringTickMarks01.jpg




Tip: Wet film behind your path-of-travel
Everyone new to buffing wants to be told some easily identifiable sign that they can use to tell when it's time to stop buffing and it's not that simple, so here's an indicator I've always used and share in our detailing classes.


As you're making a single pass with the polisher, the paint behind the path-of-travel should have a visible wet film on it. If the paint behind the pad is dry and shiny, you've run out of lubrication and you're dry buffing.

Turn the polisher off. Wipe the residue off and inspect using a Swirl Finder Light to make sure you didn't dull or micro-mar the paint, you usually won't cause any harm, but pay attention when your running the polisher and don't buff to a dry buff. If you do, you can quickly re-polish that section by cleaning your pad and adding a little fresh product and making a few new section passes.

Wet film behind your path-of-travel
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/Wetfilmbehindyourpath-of-travel.jpg




Related Articles

How-To do a "Section Pass" when Machine Polishing with a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-videos/24074-video-how-do-section-pass-when-machine-buffing.html)

How to prime a foam pad when using a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/35292-how-prime-foam-pad-when-using-da-polisher.html)

The short how-to guide for using a DA Polisher
How to maximize the ability of the 1st Generation Porter Cable Dual Action Polishers (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/27166-how-maximize-ability-1st-gen-porter-cable-dual-action-polishers.html)

How to clean your foam pad on the fly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html)

How to dry a foam pad after hand washing (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/26512-how-dry-foam-pad-after-hand-washing.html)

Why it's important to clean your pads often... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/28755-why-s-important-clean-your-pads-often.html)

Kissing the Finish (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/29792-kissing-finish.html)

How to use a microfiber bonnet to remove dried wax by machine (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/29369-how-use-microfiber-bonnet-remove-dried-wax-machine.html)

5 1/2 inch and 6 inch Buffing Pads on Autogeek's Online Store (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/questions-about-porter-cable-7424xp-7424-7336-griot-s-meguiar-s-dual-action-polishers/27194-5-1-2-inch-6-inch-buffing-pads-pictures-links.html)

Thin is in... New Lake Country Hydro-Tech Low Profile 5 1/2 x 7/8 Inch Foam Pads (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/28825-thin-new-lake-country-hydro-tech-low-profile-5-1-2-x-7-8-inch-foam-pads.html)


:buffing:

[MJT]

Here's a related article...


Wet Buffing Technique (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/36237-wet-buffing-technique.html)


The Wet Buffing Technique
Most compounds and polishes should be used so that there is enough product on the surface to maintain a wet film while the product is being worked. The wetness of the product is lubricating the paint as the abrasives abrade the paint and cushion or buffer the abrading action so the abrasives don’t simply scour the finish leaving behind what we call micro-marring or hazing the paint.

Micro-marring, Hazing or Tick Marks
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/MicromarringTickMarks01.jpg




Tip: Wet film behind your path-of-travel
Everyone new to buffing wants to be told some easily identifiable sign that they can use to tell when it's time to stop buffing and it's not that simple, so here's an indicator I've always used and share in our detailing classes.


As you're making a single pass with the polisher, the paint behind the path-of-travel should have a visible wet film on it. If the paint behind the pad is dry and shiny, you've run out of lubrication and you're dry buffing.

Turn the polisher off. Wipe the residue off and inspect using a Swirl Finder Light to make sure you didn't dull or micro-mar the paint, you usually won't cause any harm, but pay attention when your running the polisher and don't buff to a dry buff. If you do, you can quickly re-polish that section by cleaning your pad and adding a little fresh product and making a few new section passes.

Wet film behind your path-of-travel
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/Wetfilmbehindyourpath-of-travel.jpg




Related Articles

How-To do a "Section Pass" when Machine Polishing with a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-videos/24074-video-how-do-section-pass-when-machine-buffing.html)

How to prime a foam pad when using a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/35292-how-prime-foam-pad-when-using-da-polisher.html)

The short how-to guide for using a DA Polisher
How to maximize the ability of the 1st Generation Porter Cable Dual Action Polishers (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/27166-how-maximize-ability-1st-gen-porter-cable-dual-action-polishers.html)

How to clean your foam pad on the fly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html)

How to dry a foam pad after hand washing (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/26512-how-dry-foam-pad-after-hand-washing.html)

Why it's important to clean your pads often... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/28755-why-s-important-clean-your-pads-often.html)

Kissing the Finish (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/29792-kissing-finish.html)

How to use a microfiber bonnet to remove dried wax by machine (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/29369-how-use-microfiber-bonnet-remove-dried-wax-machine.html)

5 1/2 inch and 6 inch Buffing Pads on Autogeek's Online Store (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/questions-about-porter-cable-7424xp-7424-7336-griot-s-meguiar-s-dual-action-polishers/27194-5-1-2-inch-6-inch-buffing-pads-pictures-links.html)

Thin is in... New Lake Country Hydro-Tech Low Profile 5 1/2 x 7/8 Inch Foam Pads (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/28825-thin-new-lake-country-hydro-tech-low-profile-5-1-2-x-7-8-inch-foam-pads.html)


:buffing:
Hi Mike, I noticed that when using m105 last week it did seem to be fully abraded after just a couple of passes. At first when I spread it you can see the hazy film of m105 but very quickly that all disappeared! I continued buffing as I know you normally suggest 6 passes for a section. Maybe I was dry buffing at this point and hence the foam bits everywhere?

Also I just read on on another post that m105 itself leaves a lot of dust. I am just wondering if maybe the foam bits were actually the dried m105 residue. What do you think?

[cardaddy]

Hi Mike, I noticed that when using m105 last week it did seem to be fully abraded after just a couple of passes. At first when I spread it you can see the hazy film of m105 but very quickly that all disappeared! I continued buffing as I know you normally suggest 6 passes for a section. Maybe I was dry buffing at this point and hence the foam bits everywhere?

Also I just read on on another post that m105 itself leaves a lot of dust. I am just wondering if maybe the foam bits were actually the dried m105 residue. What do you think?

PMFJI here, but YES you were dry buffing! You'll not get 105 to work/last for 6 passes, just won't do it. :nomore:
Sounds like you had possibly two or even all three of these going on.

one heck of a dry pad
a ton of pressure
and a really long working time.
Some paint (IE not old dry paint) will buff longer with it than others, but two to three passes with 105 is pushing it. Especially with the harder cutting pads.

One way that will help 105 work longer is to prime the pad with Megs Ultimate Compound then use the 3 (pea sized) drops. Do your 'cleaning on the fly' then re-apply the 3 drops.

Another way is to use a tiny amount of mineral oil/baby oil on the pad.

And of course the last one would be a slight spritz of distilled water. Personally I don't like the water with SMAT compounds as they are designed to work hard and fast and it really doesn't change the effect. Seems to work a bit better with DAT polishes (not compounds) though.

Keep in mind also that the wet film is critical with 105 to get it removed. Let it dry and you'll put more scratches in the paint than you ever got out just trying to get the darned stuff off the car. :rolleyes:

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Mike, I noticed that when using m105 last week it did seem to be fully abraded after just a couple of passes. At first when I spread it you can see the hazy film of m105 but very quickly that all disappeared!

I continued buffing as I know you normally suggest 6 passes for a section. Maybe I was dry buffing at this point and hence the foam bits everywhere?



Maybe try using a tad more product and see how it goes and be sure to clean your pad after each section pass, this helps a lot with any compound.






Also I just read on on another post that m105 itself leaves a lot of dust. I am just wondering if maybe the foam bits were actually the dried m105 residue. What do you think?



The term is...


Pill


That is the residue that builds up as you're buffing rolls into a ball and this is called pilling. Sounds like what you're seeing.

Again, clean the panel of any previous residue, clean your pad really well, apply fresh product and try working a smaller section.

Most everyone and their brother since I've been alive recommends working a 2' by 2' section and that's okay with a rotary buffer but not a dual action polisher.


:)

[parttimer]

I saw elsewhere they had another detailers method of working with the 105. Something about starting the compound process, then spritz with detailing lube to keep the panel/pad wet. This supposedly cut down on dusting and allowed you to work the product longer. I should have book marked it!

[cardaddy]

The term is...


Pill


That is the residue that builds up as you're buffing rolls into a ball and this is called pilling. Sounds like what you're seeing.

Again, clean the panel of any previous residue, clean your pad really well, apply fresh product and try working a smaller section.

Most everyone and their brother since I've been alive recommends working a 2' by 2' section and that's okay with a rotary buffer but not a dual action polisher.

This...

and

this


PMFJI Mike but I did want to mention pad degradation / failure is certainly an option as well. Not so much though for a brand new CCS or flat pad but certainly an option.

Although it does sound as if the OP's pad(s) were dry (or not properly primed perhaps).

I did some work in late Spring for a guy that I mentioned in another thread (black Porsche paint) and on that job (our first meeting on any jobsite) and was handed a Harbor Freight pad to work SIP with. That thing started snowing foam within minutes! :eek: He said to keep working with it, but after a while I got fed up with the mess and swapped to one of his (very) dirty CCS orange pads. (After that point I always took my own pads.) ;) Just wasn't willing to risk the quality of my work next time he called.

[jbjwallace]

Using HF pad on a 6" backing plate, will do the same thing, the velcro doesnt go out to the edge

[MJT]

Would I be I right then in stopping buffing as soon as I can see no more m105 film on the paint? I found that the m105 film really disappeared after a few passes. So am thinking this time I will stop as soon as that happens. Is that correct?

Also I did notice from my last job that when I used a pad that had been just cleaned the m105 film lasted a fair bit longer. I think this was due to the fact the pads still had some water left in them even after drying them and spinning them well. Is that a problem at all when using a slightly wet (water) pad with m105? Or would that be another way of priming the pad so it doesn't dry buff??

[cardaddy]

Would I be I right then in stopping buffing as soon as I can see no more m105 film on the paint? I found that the m105 film really disappeared after a few passes. So am thinking this time I will stop as soon as that happens. Is that correct?

Also I did notice from my last job that when I used a pad that had been just cleaned the m105 film lasted a fair bit longer. I think this was due to the fact the pads still had some water left in them even after drying them and spinning them well. Is that a problem at all when using a slightly wet (water) pad with m105? Or would that be another way of priming the pad so it doesn't dry buff??

Yes!

You'll want to be able to easily remove the film with you finger.

Using the wet pad is not the same though. That's why it is always recommended to use a dry pad that has been properly 'primed'. Also why it takes so many pads to complete a vehicle. Water within the pad is a bad thing!

Take a real close look to the photos that Mike posted of a properly primed pad. The close up shots with the dime are a great place to start. Notice how many pores in the pad are filled with product. THAT is where you get your lubricity.

Once the pad is properly loaded, then it takes care of itself. The three drops give you what you need to work a "section". Cleaning on the fly gets you through what happens after you work a section, (removing spent product, removed paint etc.).

Bottom line is 105 is a royal PITA to work with most of the time, for most people. Sure, on paint in good shape it works a lot I mean a WHOLE LOT better, but for dry paint that needs a lot of work it'll dry out in as little as 2 section passes. You are better off to work it through one slow and steady section pass and remove it than try to work it 3, 4 or 5 passes.

SMAT products cut hard and fast so no worries about not getting your cutting done. What you may deal with though is spent paint (and other crud) getting balled up with the 105 particles and actually contributing to micromarring and hazing. SMAT products just cut, period. The problem with that is they don't finish out as smoothly as if they were breaking down and getting finer and finer with each pass.

Whereas DAT products start to break down instantly, you get the first couple of passes in to get the cut, then continue to work the product to get the finish. Need more cut, then keep cleaning the pads and panel and adding product before it works all the way down. (Or just use a SMAT product for the cut and DAT for the finish.) ;)