Swirl Remover help

[popcornplayer28]

Hey Guys and Girls, looking for some advice.

My car has Swirls all over it, im not really sure as to what swirl remover to use.

I can see that the Wolfgang Swirl Remover 3.0 is a pretty aggressive compound and the Meguiars Swirl Remover is less aggressive.

Do you have any advice on what would be best to use as im not sure how to tell whether the Swirls are severe or light.
The paint is OEM VW Golf GT Metallic Blue Clear Coat (2005)

I understand it would always be case of going for the least aggressive product to get the job done but money is tight and i dont want to waste money on one product if it doesnt work.

Any advice you can give will be of a great help.

Many Thanks
Jay

[Mike Phillips]

Hey Guys and Girls, looking for some advice.

My car has Swirls all over it, im not really sure as to what swirl remover to use.

I can see that the Wolfgang Swirl Remover 3.0 is a pretty aggressive compound and the Meguiars Swirl Remover is less aggressive.

Do you have any advice on what would be best to use as im not sure how to tell whether the Swirls are severe or light.
The paint is OEM VW Golf GT Metallic Blue Clear Coat (2005)

I understand it would always be case of going for the least aggressive product to get the job done but money is tight and i dont want to waste money on one product if it doesnt work.

Any advice you can give will be of a great help.

Many Thanks
Jay


Hi Jay,

The Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover is a medium cut swirl remover, not a compound, and no where near as aggressive as a true compound. In fact it's acutally a perfect blance of cut and finish for most projects the average person will work on.

It finishes out good enough for most people to look at the results and say, it's waxing time. For the more perfectionist type people they will want to follow-up with the Wolfgang Finishing Glaze which is not really a "glaze" but a fine cut polish. Thus the Wolfgang Twins, use the TSR and follow with the FG.


If you're talking about Meguiar's #9 Swirl Remover this is a Fine Cut Polish, possibly even could e considered an Ultra Fine Cut Polish.


Check this out...

How To Remove Horrible Rotary Buffer Swirl Marks out of a 350Z using the Wolfgang Twins (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/21413-horrible-swirl-marks.html)



Before

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/104_0505.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/zigzagrotarybufferswirls01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/zigzagrotarybufferswirls02.jpg




After

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/csprakyfly/350Z/888_2158.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/csprakyfly/350Z/888_2164.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/csprakyfly/350Z/888_2181.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/csprakyfly/350Z/888_2187.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/csprakyfly/350Z/888_2192.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/csprakyfly/350Z/888_2194.jpg



The Wolfgang Twins with some good pads and just about any type of polisher will work wonders.


:)

[popcornplayer28]

You're a star, thank you mike.

Can the Swirl Remover be used on RIDS with a heavier cutting pad or would you recommend a more aggressive product for them?


Many Thanks
Jay

P.S. just purchased your book and very excited to take delivery of it.

[Dogfather]

How many hours does something like that take.

[HateSwirls]

It's not uncommon for it to take 20-30 hours,many factors come in to play,damage, clear coat , tool and pads used,etc.
I worked on a Black Honda Accord Coupe about a month ago,the car had so many swirls to a point I had to make several passes, over and over, slow passes ,I hate working on Honda's. Lol

I used Griot's polisher, MF cutting pads bY CG'S and m105 & still took the entire weekend.





How many hours does something like that take.

[VP Mark]

I have been whack a moling swirls extremely quickly with megs M100, a buff and shine MF cutting pad and my rupes 15. If you are having to make 3+ section passes to get rid of swirls step up your product, pad, pressure, speed. Rids are another story but swirls can be dealt with quickly with the right combo.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using AG Online

[Mike Phillips]

Can the Swirl Remover be used on RIDS with a heavier cutting pad or would you recommend a more aggressive product for them?


Many Thanks
Jay



Two comments...

If you really want to remove deeper defects it would be faster to use a more aggressive product like a true compound.

I tend to recommend people shy away from removing RIDS on daily drivers, the clear layer of paint on new cars is pretty thin that in my opinion you're better off to simply improve the deeper defects, not try to completely remove the deeper defects.





P.S. just purchased your book and very excited to take delivery of it.




Why thank you sir, I'm confident you'll like it. If you look at my writing style on the forum it's the same way in the book, that is very detailed, covering topics thoroughly and written in a conversational manner, which makes for easy reading and understanding.


I worked very hard on this first book and I sincerely think it turned out very well.



:)

[HateSwirls]

I got what your saying but you see this was one of the worst cars I ever had to work on, the swirls were deep, oxidation, water spots, you name it and It was on the finish.

I've always used m105,v34 or UC but never tried m100.
What's the difference in the four?
And how would you compare Wolfgangs Total Swirl Remover to m105 being I'm trying that next?



I have been whack a moling swirls extremely quickly with megs M100, a buff and shine MF cutting pad and my rupes 15. If you are having to make 3+ section passes to get rid of swirls step up your product, pad, pressure, speed. Rids are another story but swirls can be dealt with quickly with the right combo.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using AG Online

[HateSwirls]

Hello Mike,

My wife will be buying me the book, would it be possaible for you to sign it?
You are a guy with so much talent so it makes sense to buy the book and gain some knowledge :dblthumb2:



Two comments...

If you really want to remove deeper defects it would be faster to use a more aggressive product like a true compound.

I tend to recommend people shy away from removing RIDS on daily drivers, the clear layer of paint on new cars is pretty thin that in my opinion you're better off to simply improve the deeper defects, not try to completely remove the deeper defects.





Why thank you sir, I'm confident you'll like it. If you look at my writing style on the forum it's the same way in the book, that is very detailed, covering topics thoroughly and written in a conversational manner, which makes for easy reading and understanding.


I worked very hard on this first book and I sincerely think it turned out very well.



:)

[Mike Phillips]

How many hours does something like that take.


First... in my entire life I've NEVER claimed to be the fastest at this craft. I'll leave that claim up to someone else. And this is because you cannot rush quality and removing swirls and scratches, that is "below surface defects" takes a certain amount of time.

That is, you have to move the polisher slowly over the surface to allow the combination of,


Abrasive technology
Pad technology
Downward Pressure
Time - Arm Speed
Tool action - This is usually a combination of rotation and oscillation but could be just rotation.
Technique

You need to allow the above things the time to "affect" the surface. By the word "affect", I mean abrade it in a way that removes defects while leaving both a nice looking finish behind and the most amount of paint as is possible.


The longest step in an exterior buff-out is the first machine step, in my how-to book I call it,

The Major Correction Step

Because that's what it is no matter what the tool, pad or product. The first step when working on a neglected finish is the major step and thus the Major Correction Step. (Had to give it a name).


If you don't remove the defects during this first step then chances are very good they will be their after the final wipe off of your LSP.

Deeper defects not removed during the major correction step are not likely going to be removed when you move onto the next step where you're now using less aggressive pads, products and even tools and technique.

So the end results, that is the BIG Picture, is determined during this crucial, first correction step and for this reason you cannot rush it.

All of the above said, for a car like you see in the above pictures, not including all the prep work you do before bringing the buffer down onto the paint, things like washing, claying, taping off, etc. to use a dual action polisher like a Porter Cable or variants, it's going to take a person that knows what they are doing a range of 3-6 hours.

The range of time is affected by the pad and product. With the Meguiar's Microfiber Cutting pad and their D300, a person can can knock out the correction step pretty quickly but I'd say 3 hours for the 350Z would still be pushing it and 4 hours minimum would be a better baseline.

The next step of course goes a lot faster because now you're not locked into doing as much work to each section you buffer out as the heavy lifting, so to speak is over.

So say you spent 4 hours on the first step, and 2 hours on the second step, and then applied a dedicated product for your last step, be it a wax, sealant or coating, you're looking at approximately 7 to 8 hours by the time you're making the final wipe down of the paint. And this time allotment does not count the other procedures like washing, drying, claying, taping-off, etc.

The above is doing a multiple-step process with the additional LSP application and removal.

With the Meguiar's Microfiber DA Correction System, you actually stop and are finished after the second step, that is using the D301. In this scenario you're looking at 5-6 hours for a two-step process over the average size passenger car.

NOTE: A person can do it faster but realistically, if you start buffing out sections faster you're not going to get as good of defect removal AND that's okay for doing production detailing. What i typed above would be more for the guy that actually owns the car he's working on and wants to do a good job.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

I've always used m105,v34 or UC but never tried m100.

What's the difference in the four?




Well the short answer is three of the products you listed are from Meguiar's, a company that has been formulating compounds and polishes for the refinishing industry for over 100 years and the other product is from the Chemical Guys and I'm not sure what their background is for formulating products for the refinishing industry? I think they have primarily targeted the Detail Industry and the Enthusiast Market.



4 General Automotive Surface Care and Appearance Markets


OEM Industry
That would be when your car is being manufactures and at some paint if their is a problem with the paint the car is moved off the assembly line to what is called a polishing deck and then "products" formulated for the OEM industry are used to fix the problem.


Refinishing Industry
This is your local body shop and custom paint shop, for example after you wreck your Honda the body shop installs a new fender and paints the fender to match the car or like Max, you take your classic Mustang convertible to a Custom Shop and a guy like Wayne Carini has his guys rebuild the car and then spray a custom paint job on it. These two types of business are the "refinishing industry" as they are "re-finishing" the car.


Detail Industry This primarily includes "Production Detailing" but also includes Show Car Detailing, we have both types of detailers on this forum and they use products formulated by just about everyone.


Enthusiast Market
This is the guy that just wants to take care of his own stuff, he's a do-it-yourselfer. Often times the do-it yourselfer does as good of work as a Pro Detailer that specializes in show car detailing and even better work than you can get in the re-finishing industry and the simple reason for this is he cares about his car and thus his work.







And how would you compare Wolfgang's Total Swirl Remover to M105 being I'm trying that next?



M105 is a true compound that uses super microscopic abrasive technology.

TSR is a medium cut polish that uses diminishing abrasive technology.

See this article from my article list and it's also in my how-to book, links to both in my Sig Line.


Words mean things... just ask any Lawyer...

Word Definitions - Compounds, Polishes, Glazes, Paint Cleaners and Waxes (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/39020-word-definitions-compounds-polishes-glazes-paint-cleaners-waxes.html)




:)

[HateSwirls]

On avg. it takes me 10-12 hours to do a complete correction, then again I'm very anal when it comes to correcting a car,I'll knock myself out to get great results even if it's a DD.

I've been at it for a very long time but still find myself learning new methods on paint correcting.
Up next like I said, Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover, can't wait to see the difference between it and my 105 & 205.
One step over two steps.

Might be a couple of months though being the surgery is coming up :(



First... in my entire life I've NEVER claimed to be the fastest at this craft. I'll leave that claim up to someone else. And this is because you cannot rush quality and removing swirls and scratches, that is "below surface defects" takes a certain amount of time.

That is, you have to move the polisher slowly over the surface to allow the combination of,


Abrasive technology
Pad technology
Downward Pressure
Time - Arm Speed
Tool action - This is usually a combination of rotation and oscillation but could be just rotation.
Technique

You need to allow the above things the time to "affect" the surface. By the word "affect", I mean abrade it in a way that removes defects while leaving both a nice looking finish behind and the most amount of paint as is possible.


The longest step in an exterior buff-out is the first machine step, in my how-to book I call it,

The Major Correction Step

Because that's what it is no matter what the tool, pad or product. The first step when working on a neglected finish is the major step and thus the Major Correction Step. (Had to give it a name).


If you don't remove the defects during this first step then chances are very good they will be their after the final wipe off of your LSP.

Deeper defects not removed during the major correction step are not likely going to be removed when you move onto the next step where you're now using less aggressive pads, products and even tools and technique.

So the end results, that is the BIG Picture, is determined during this crucial, first correction step and for this reason you cannot rush it.

All of the above said, for a car like you see in the above pictures, not including all the prep work you do before bringing the buffer down onto the paint, things like washing, claying, taping off, etc. to use a dual action polisher like a Porter Cable or variants, it's going to take a person that knows what they are doing a range of 3-6 hours.

The range of time is affected by the pad and product. With the Meguiar's Microfiber Cutting pad and their D300, a person can can knock out the correction step pretty quickly but I'd say 3 hours for the 350Z would still be pushing it and 4 hours minimum would be a better baseline.

The next step of course goes a lot faster because now you're not locked into doing as much work to each section you buffer out as the heavy lifting, so to speak is over.

So say you spent 4 hours on the first step, and 2 hours on the second step, and then applied a dedicated product for your last step, be it a wax, sealant or coating, you're looking at approximately 7 to 8 hours by the time you're making the final wipe down of the paint. And this time allotment does not count the other procedures like washing, drying, claying, taping-off, etc.

The above is doing a multiple-step process with the additional LSP application and removal.

With the Meguiar's Microfiber DA Correction System, you actually stop and are finished after the second step, that is using the D301. In this scenario you're looking at 5-6 hours for a two-step process over the average size passenger car.

NOTE: A person can do it faster but realistically, if you start buffing out sections faster you're not going to get as good of defect removal AND that's okay for doing production detailing. What i typed above would be more for the guy that actually owns the car he's working on and wants to do a good job.


:)

[VP Mark]

I got what your saying but you see this was one of the worst cars I ever had to work on, the swirls were deep, oxidation, water spots, you name it and It was on the finish.

I've always used m105,v34 or UC but never tried m100.
What's the difference in the four?
And how would you compare Wolfgangs Total Swirl Remover to m105 being I'm trying that next?

Never used TSR but have used plenty of dedicated swirl removers and can say that compounds are much more aggressive and will get you faster results. Another thing to consider is not focusing as much on the product but on your pad and process. It is just as important as the product you use.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using AG Online

[swanicyouth]

The thing with TSR you got to know is its very user friendly. There isn't much of a learning curve and its easy to get great results. If I'm having an "issue" removing an area of defects, I prefer to bump up my pad to a more aggressive pad and continue to use TSR, then use a dedicated compound.

Of course, if your detailing for $$$, that may not make much sense. But if your working on your own car, you can take care of some pretty swirly cars with TSR and the right pad. I've used TSR with the yellow LC CCS pad on some pretty hard paint and got rid of all the defects and got great results.

I decided to do that so I could continue to use the user friendly TSR, and not have to worry about the possibility of a compound dusting excessively or drying up (it was very hot out).

Compounds like M105/100/101 are from Meguiar's PROFESSIONAL line. They cut fast and they are intended for use for the experienced professional. This could be why sometimes new detailers occasionally have a hard time using these compounds. They may not be an ideal choice to learn how to buff out a car with (possible frustration).

A better choice to learn with may be Meg's OTC "Ultimate" Compound and Polish. While the results may not be quite as fast, they have the same type of abrasive technology and a longer working time and are more geared to the DIY guy.

Another great line of polishes / compounds are Optimum's. Its pretty easy, they have: Compound, Polish, and Finish Polish. They are inexpensive and easy to use.

[HateSwirls]

Thanks for the tips.

Soon as I'm well I'll try out the TSR with my CG'S MF pads on cars that are swirled up or my white CG'S white pad to remove a few swirls on my black SUV.

I also have the CG's yellow hex pad which I never used yet.

Question.
Should I follow with 205 or Wolfgang Finishing Glaze or is it possaible to use TSR as my LSP?

Love this forum,we learn so much here:dblthumb2:






The thing with TSR you got to know is its very user friendly. There isn't much of a learning curve and its easy to get great results. If I'm having an "issue" removing an area of defects, I prefer to bump up my pad to a more aggressive pad and continue to use TSR, then use a dedicated compound.

Of course, if your detailing for $$$, that may not make much sense. But if your working on your own car, you can take care of some pretty swirly cars with TSR and the right pad. I've used TSR with the yellow LC CCS pad on some pretty hard paint and got rid of all the defects and got great results.

I decided to do that so I could continue to use the user friendly TSR, and not have to worry about the possibility of a compound dusting excessively or drying up (it was very hot out).

Compounds like M105/100/101 are from Meguiar's PROFESSIONAL line. They cut fast and they are intended for use for the experienced professional. This could be why sometimes new detailers occasionally have a hard time using these compounds. They may not be an ideal choice to learn how to buff out a car with (possible frustration).

A better choice to learn with may be Meg's OTC "Ultimate" Compound and Polish. While the results may not be quite as fast, they have the same type of abrasive technology and a longer working time and are more geared to the DIY guy.

Another great line of polishes / compounds are Optimum's. Its pretty easy, they have: Compound, Polish, and Finish Polish. They are inexpensive and easy to use.