Surbuf with DAT compounds question

[MattyL]

I'm in the process of correcting my 2000 Bmw 5 series' paint. I compounded the hood twice in my quest for perfection. First time was HydroTech Cyan/m105. 2nd time was Meguiars MF/m105. Both times, a test spot showed promise but in different light & @ a different angle (grocery store parking lot!) after the whole hood was finished, I discovered these combos failed to remove all of the RIDS. Did a small test spot (instead of whole hood this time) with a Surbuf/m105 combo, took it back to the supermarket, & the RIDS were gone.

Stay with me now.

I just picked up a bottle of CarPro Fixer which is a DAT compound, meaning it will take a bit of time for the Fixer to break down. I'm worried about how many passes I will have to make w/the Surbufs to break the compound down. I feel like I should only be using them with SMAT products only, bc those pads are HARSH.

So my ultimate concerns are:
(a.) would a third time with surbuf & ANY compound be too much in your opinion?
(b.) the safety of Surbufs and a DAT compound considering the harshness of the pads & time of contact w/the paint given a DAT's requirement of breaking down?

I don't have a paint gauge, so this all scares the hell out of me.

Thanks for any input!

[mwoolfso]

Lock in a process with another round or two of test spots, but try Fixer with a cutting pad first and see how that goes.

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[psnt1ol]

Validate your process through your test spots and get yourself a good light source (Brinksman, strong LED, etc) to check your result.

Be careful of chasing RIDS if your car is a DD. I prefer a healthy CC w/ some RIDS than a thin one w/ no RIDS. If you must chase then be strategic and tackle a small area at a time. However, I would recommend having your paint measured prior to doing anything else.

[Shtexas]

If the car is a daily driver I would finish polish it and be happy with it. Without a gauge on a 13 year old car I would be hesitant to keep cutting the clear to remove more scratches. You may get rid of them but be left with thin clear preventing you from polishing out any imperfections later on.
You could see if any dealers local to you with a gauge would let you bring the car by for measurements.

[MattyL]

It is indeed a DD. I guess I have to overcome my need for detailing perfection and play it safer than sorry and protect the clear-coat. I can see how this hobby can drive people nuts though...

I'm still curious about what people think about the safety of a Surbuf/DMAT combo though...

[cardaddy]

Validate your process through your test spots and get yourself a good light source (Brinksman, strong LED, etc) to check your result.

Be careful of chasing RIDS if your car is a DD. I prefer a healthy CC w/ some RIDS than a thin one w/ no RIDS. If you must chase then be strategic and tackle a small area at a time. However, I would recommend having your paint measured prior to doing anything else.

THIS!

Parking lot lights are NOT what you need. Sunlight, yes! Parking lot lights at night... I'd use the LED on the back of my smartphone before those lights.

So yeah, get yourself a good LED flashlight, or even a Brinkman. It's handy to have around the house to spot kritters down by the creek too. ;)

To address MF pads and SMAT products. SMAT products do not break down. It'll cut on the first pass, just as it does on the fourth pass. What WILL happen is the particles will pickup expended product as well as cut down paint and all that will end up building up in the pad which will affect the way the SMAT product works, but it is not breaking down in the sense that DAT products do.

You want serious cut with a DA, you get wool pads or Microfiber pads. You want serious cut with a compound, you go with 105 or 101. You ADD the two (pads and compounds) and you are doing some serious grinding. ;) Don't mistake RIDS for towel marks, buffer trails, micro marring and the like either.

I'd say work on your method. Tape off the hood, trunk, roof (whatever) into half a dozen test spots. Write down the method; pad, compound, speed, number of section passes, arm speed, arm pressure. If one is close, then another one may be just enough.

Do not discount the towel marks that could be taking place either. I had a guy I was working with (not a customer) want me to do an alky wipe on a black Porsche 911 a couple of weeks ago, but insisted I use his cheap towels. So much so that I had to go to Wal Mart and buy more of the junk that he insists on using. They scratched the living snot out of that paint! (And even though he wanted the towels for his use, now he's not paying ME for them.)

Back to being careful with MF pads and heavy cut. He wanted to use MF pads and heavy cut, ("the heaviest and fastest cut you can use" is what he told me). All the swirls were gone, and all but the very deepest scratches were gone. Wouldn't really call what was left RIDS, although I guess they were actually 'random' scratches. :dunno: Bottom line is it was micro marred after compounding with a yellow and orange pad, (no doubt), and did not clear up completely with a DAT finishing polish that he wanted to use (duh). But in a 3 step process you can correct that. He was wanting to bill out a 3 step process but only use a 2 step. I told him it was caused in the compounding stage and given the 3rd step it would clear up, but moving to a finishing polish right away just wasn't working for me. (I used white and he didn't like the idea.) Didn't really work for him either and he ended up using both orange AND white pads to 'fix' it. Ended up doing a 3+ step process on it btw. And he still insists HIS process is not at fault! :rolleyes:

Anybody can have a process that works for them, but not for someone else. Might be one guy is expecting something different, or looking for something different. Could be the difference between products, pads, speeds, you name it. That's why you work out YOUR process, and refine it. Once you have it down you can then duplicate it on the rest of the car. (Which is actually only good for it with that amount of paint damage, because next time it'll not need that much work.) :laughing:

[psnt1ol]

THIS!

Parking lot lights are NOT what you need. Sunlight, yes! Parking lot lights at night... I'd use the LED on the back of my smartphone before those lights.

So yeah, get yourself a good LED flashlight, or even a Brinkman. It's handy to have around the house to spot kritters down by the creek too. ;)

To address MF pads and SMAT products. SMAT products do not break down. It'll cut on the first pass, just as it does on the fourth pass. What WILL happen is the particles will pickup expended product as well as cut down paint and all that will end up building up in the pad which will affect the way the SMAT product works, but it is not breaking down in the sense that DAT products do.

You want serious cut with a DA, you get wool pads or Microfiber pads. You want serious cut with a compound, you go with 105 or 101. You ADD the two (pads and compounds) and you are doing some serious grinding. ;) Don't mistake RIDS for towel marks, buffer trails, micro marring and the like either.

I'd say work on your method. Tape off the hood, trunk, roof (whatever) into half a dozen test spots. Write down the method; pad, compound, speed, number of section passes, arm speed, arm pressure. If one is close, then another one may be just enough.

Do not discount the towel marks that could be taking place either. I had a guy I was working with (not a customer) want me to do an alky wipe on a black Porsche 911 a couple of weeks ago, but insisted I use his cheap towels. So much so that I had to go to Wal Mart and buy more of the junk that he insists on using. They scratched the living snot out of that paint! (And even though he wanted the towels for his use, now he's not paying ME for them.)

Back to being careful with MF pads and heavy cut. He wanted to use MF pads and heavy cut, ("the heaviest and fastest cut you can use" is what he told me). All the swirls were gone, and all but the very deepest scratches were gone. Wouldn't really call what was left RIDS, although I guess they were actually 'random' scratches. :dunno: Bottom line is it was micro marred after compounding with a yellow and orange pad, (no doubt), and did not clear up completely with a DAT finishing polish that he wanted to use (duh). But in a 3 step process you can correct that. He was wanting to bill out a 3 step process but only use a 2 step. I told him it was caused in the compounding stage and given the 3rd step it would clear up, but moving to a finishing polish right away just wasn't working for me. (I used white and he didn't like the idea.) Didn't really work for him either and he ended up using both orange AND white pads to 'fix' it. Ended up doing a 3+ step process on it btw. And he still insists HIS process is not at fault! :rolleyes:

Anybody can have a process that works for them, but not for someone else. Might be one guy is expecting something different, or looking for something different. Could be the difference between products, pads, speeds, you name it. That's why you work out YOUR process, and refine it. Once you have it down you can then duplicate it on the rest of the car. (Which is actually only good for it with that amount of paint damage, because next time it'll not need that much work.) :laughing:

Good point on the towels. No worst feeling than to see all your work shot to hell by a bad towel. Hard paint is not so bad but on a soft paint....quality MF is a must.

I worked with the Surbuf pad with M105 combination in the past and IMO.... this will most likely leave some hazing. However, a fine polish with a light polishing pad should be able to remove it easily. I made the switch to MF pads a while back and I haven't use the Surbuf pads since but this combo was my favorite in dealing with Jacked-up paint.

My only experience with Fixer was with a Flex 3401 on foam pads. I find that the product works better when you start with med speed for the first 2 passes follow with high speed on the next couple of passes then medium again for the last 2. Fixer is a bit harder to finish down on soft paint but it is a good bridge between a compound and a med polish IMO.

[MattyL]

I'm still curious about what people think about the safety of a Surbuf/DMAT combo though...

My fault, I meant to say Surbuf/DAT, not DMAT..

Don't discount the power of those parking lot lamps, i'm telling you. haha. I had a porter cable LED flashlight AND had the car in direct sunlight, and the RIDS didn't show up until I had the car under the lights at ACME! No BS.

[cardaddy]

Good point on the towels. No worst feeling than to see all your work shot to hell by a bad towel. Hard paint is not so bad but on a soft paint....quality MF is a must.

I worked with the Surbuf pad with M105 combination in the past and IMO.... this will most likely leave some hazing. However, a fine polish with a light polishing pad should be able to remove it easily. I made the switch to MF pads a while back and I haven't use the Surbuf pads since but this combo was my favorite in dealing with Jacked-up paint.

My only experience with Fixer was with a Flex 3401 on foam pads. I find that the product works better when you start with med speed for the first 2 passes follow with high speed on the next couple of passes then medium again for the last 2. Fixer is a bit harder to finish down on soft paint but it is a good bridge between a compound and a med polish IMO.


I haven't used the Surbuf pads, but started with the second gen Megs and have found they are a VERY good tool to have. ;)

I still don't have all the towels I'd like to have, (several hundred already) but one I WILL NOT BUY are the Wal-Mart ones. They are just junk waiting to screw up your paint. Not to mention the cost can be beat by other units out there from a number of sources. :rolleyes:



My fault, I meant to say Surbuf/DAT, not DMAT..

Don't discount the power of those parking lot lamps, i'm telling you. haha. I had a porter cable LED flashlight AND had the car in direct sunlight, and the RIDS didn't show up until I had the car under the lights at ACME! No BS.

I hear ya', and know when there is TOO much light you sometimes can't see crap. Gotta' love the xenon Brinkman as it seems to always work. I actually have several LED's including a 220 lumen tactical, and it doesn't work for me. I do have a $100 single chip LED work light that works GREAT!!! Doesn't try to peel your skin off like a halogen stand rig, and you can sit it right beside you while you work on the floor. :)