Expert advice needed: Proper technique for Menz SF4500 and LC HT Crimson

[Radarryan]

(Note to Moderators: I struggled to decide where to post this, but as you can see settled on this. If you all need to move it, please do and I am sorry for the inconvenience.)


As the title states I want to make sure that I am using the proper technique (because as we know, technique is everything!) to apply my final finishing polish on very soft black paint.

I will be using a PC7424XP-HD, a.k.a. the PC, with a Lake Country Hydrotech Crimson Final Finishing Foam Pad. The polish of choice is Menzerna SF4500 (PO85RD).

I am not new to the PC and have buffed out my cars using Optimum and Meguiar's polishes with LC CCS pads, but I am new to both Menzerna and the Hydrotech line of pads. I just want to make sure that I don't make a mistake, since the mistakes are exacerbated with soft black paint.

If you would, please walk me through the differences I would notice with the Hydrotech pads vs. the CCS (which I have found I do not like) as well as the proper way to use the Menzerna polishes (work time, SMAT or DAT, etc.)

I have done quite a bit of research, polluted BobbyG's inbox (thanks for everything man!), and ultimetly decided that these two are the best two options for me. I have a couple other posts that touch on this subject but I realized that I have not used these two products and need some tutorials before I go any further, especially testing on my baby.

THANK YOU EVERYONE! :thankyousign:

Feed back please

And yes, pictures when I am in my process/show n shine will follow after the :buffing:

[Radarryan]

:bump2:

Feed back pleaseFeed back please

Make me a :pc7424: machine! :buffing::buffing:

[lawrenceSA]

I recently detailed a Subaru with very soft black paint using SF4000 and a LC Crimson pad

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/67270-obsidian-black-subaru-impreza-sti-detailed-lawrence.html

Menz is a DAT product so you have to work it through its cycle. To this end I aimed for 6 passes per section and adjusted my working area such that it did not dry out before I had completed my passes.

I used a medium pressure for the first 3 passes on speed 4.5 with a slow arm speed, and a lighter pressure on speed 4 for the last 3 with an even slower arm speed to really allow the polish to work over the surface properly.

I also prefer the flat pads for DAT based product over CCS pads (which work great for SMAT products where you can 'release' some more polish out the pad if/when needed). You do not want that happening with a DAT based polish, or effectively you are introducing 'fresh' or 'un-diminished' abrasive particles back onto the face of the pad, which could lead to micro-marring.

Ensure you perform a test spot to dial in your process before replicating it across the rest of the vehicle.

Hope this helps a little

Lawrence

[Mike Phillips]

I will be using a PC7424XP-HD, a.k.a. the PC, with a Lake Country Hydrotech Crimson Final Finishing Foam Pad. The polish of choice is Menzerna SF4500





This is an Ultra Fine Cut Polish, that means it is about as non-abrasive as you can get while still offering a smidgen of cut.

This is a DAT product but as long as you make 4-5 section passes there is no issue with whether or not you've worked the product "long enough", so don't worry about that.

First and most primary concern is to make sure the car is surgically clean and there is no dirt or dust anywhere on the car that can be caught between the pad and the paint. As long as you've washed AND RINSED the car thoroughly, or wiped the car thoroughly, then this too shouldn't be a concern.

When first starting out, prime the pad like shown here,

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad02.jpg


Work the product around the face of the pad and into the pores
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad03.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad04.jpg


Any extra, take and apply to the outer edge until 100% of the working face of the pad is primed with product.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad05.jpg



As an option you can also prime the outer edge. This helps if you're buffing around convex curves or around panels that the edge of your buffing pad may come into contact with, like spoilers, side mirror housings, curved panels etc.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad06.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad07.jpg


Primed and ready to add "Working Product" to.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad09.jpg



Now assuming the paint is already about 95% of perfect and you're not trying to remove defects but maximize gloss and clarity, then you can work about a 2'x2' section at at time. Of course, let the shape of the panel be your guide.

After priming the pad, add 3-4 drops of "working product", like this,

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad11.jpg



Then turn the polisher on the 4 setting and spread the product out.

Next, either turn the polisher off and reset the speed setting or do like I do, while holding the pad against the paint, take your other hand and bump the speed up to the 6.0 setting and start making section passes with firm pressure.

After about 3-4 section passes, lighten up your downward pressure a little and move the polisher just a tick faster over the surface. You can also try bumping the speed down a little but with the PC you get either, 5.0 or kind of a 5.5 or 6.0, the PC doesn't offer really great differences in OP speed via their variable speed dial, something Porter Cable should really look at improving.

Finish out making a few more section passes and then turn the polisher off and remove any leftover residue.

Inspect. Paint should look great. Move on to new section.

Clean your pad often with with the terry cloth towel technique or a nylon brush and usually both are best.

Start at the top and work your way down the car.

After all panels have been polished, switch to a new, clean finishing pad and machine apply your wax or sealant using the 4.0 speed setting.

:)

[Radarryan]

Well, I certainly got what I asked for when I said expert. Thanks Mike! I will follow your orders to a "T".

Except...



After all panels have been polished, switch to a new, clean finishing pad and machine apply your wax or sealant using the 4.0 speed setting.

:)

I will be applying a coating when I'm done polishing. GTechniq C1 followed by GTechniq EXOv2 as a topper. Should be petrified of water and dripping wet (without the water, of course)!

[hoyt66]

This is an Ultra Fine Cut Polish, that means it is about as non-abrasive as you can get while still offering a smidgen of cut.

This is a DAT product but as long as you make 4-5 section passes there is no issue with whether or not you've worked the product "long enough", so don't worry about that.

First and most primary concern is to make sure the car is surgically clean and there is no dirt or dust anywhere on the car that can be caught between the pad and the paint. As long as you've washed AND RINSED the car thoroughly, or wiped the car thoroughly, then this too shouldn't be a concern.

When first starting out, prime the pad like shown here,

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad02.jpg


Work the product around the face of the pad and into the pores



Any extra, take and apply to the outer edge until 100% of the working face of the pad is primed with product.




As an option you can also prime the outer edge. This helps if you're buffing around convex curves or around panels that the edge of your buffing pad may come into contact with, like spoilers, side mirror housings, curved panels etc.






Primed and ready to add "Working Product" to.




Now assuming the paint is already about 95% of perfect and you're not trying to remove defects but maximize gloss and clarity, then you can work about a 2'x2' section at at time. Of course, let the shape of the panel be your guide.

After priming the pad, add 3-4 drops of "working product", like this,





Then turn the polisher on the 4 setting and spread the product out.

Next, either turn the polisher off and reset the speed setting or do like I do, while holding the pad against the paint, take your other hand and bump the speed up to the 6.0 setting and start making section passes with firm pressure.

After about 3-4 section passes, lighten up your downward pressure a little and move the polisher just a tick faster over the surface. You can also try bumping the speed down a little but with the PC you get either, 5.0 or kind of a 5.5 or 6.0, the PC doesn't offer really great differences in OP speed via their variable speed dial, something Porter Cable should really look at improving.

Finish out making a few more section passes and then turn the polisher off and remove any leftover residue.

Inspect. Paint should look great. Move on to new section.

Clean your pad often with with the terry cloth towel technique or a nylon brush and usually both are best.

Start at the top and work your way down the car.

After all panels have been polished, switch to a new, clean finishing pad and machine apply your wax or sealant using the 4.0 speed setting.

:)

I just got my hands on some 4500. I tried some and love it but this is great instruction. Thanks Mike:dblthumb2:

[swanicyouth]

One thing I noticed about using this polish on my black car is, don't get frustrated if it doesn't look like its making a difference when you do a rest spot. The polish has a light cut, and probably won't remove but the slightest of defects.

The real benefit comes when your done and stand back and look at the car. It has extra gloss and pop. These things are hard to see close up.

Only thing I can say that hasn't been said before is I don't lighten up pressure on the final passes. Maybe I'm wrong, but I understand you should keep the pressure the same throughout the buffing cycle.

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

I recently detailed a Subaru with very soft black paint using SF4000 and a LC Crimson pad

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/67270-obsidian-black-subaru-impreza-sti-detailed-lawrence.html

Menz is a DAT product so you have to work it through its cycle. To this end I aimed for 6 passes per section and adjusted my working area such that it did not dry out before I had completed my passes.

I used a medium pressure for the first 3 passes on speed 4.5 with a slow arm speed, and a lighter pressure on speed 4 for the last 3 with an even slower arm speed to really allow the polish to work over the surface properly.

I also prefer the flat pads for DAT based product over CCS pads (which work great for SMAT products where you can 'release' some more polish out the pad if/when needed). You do not want that happening with a DAT based polish, or effectively you are introducing 'fresh' or 'un-diminished' abrasive particles back onto the face of the pad, which could lead to micro-marring.

Ensure you perform a test spot to dial in your process before replicating it across the rest of the vehicle.

Hope this helps a little

Lawrence

Where is the like button?

Any ways I think that's great advice on pad usage with DAT products and I wouldn't have thought of it that way.

Nice posting Lawrence.

[Mike Phillips]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I understand you should keep the pressure the same throughout the buffing cycle.



To be honest... at this level of finishing it doesn't make that much difference, at least not enough to start a flame war over. I've talked to others about this and some choose to keep firm pressure for each and every single section pass just like they are removing defects.

I've done it this way and got great results.

But for some reason, it just never feels right, so maybe I'm the only one that feels this way. I always say,


"Polishing paint is an art form, not a grinding process. Getting show car results requires the right pads, products tools and techniques plus the human elements of care and passion"

That is, the person doing the work has to actually care about what they are doing as in moving the polisher over the paint.

I always feel like I'm grinding when I keep firm downward pressure for the last few passes with an ULTRA FINE cut polish. Keep in mind, all the polish at the end of the buffing cycle is "spent polish" and if the polish is cutting, or abrading, or burnishing, (use the word you like), then it is removing some measure of paint particles and I just don't want to cram this stuff "into" the paint as the pad is moving over it.

Again, might just be me but I've experimented both ways and again... "at this level" of polishing with an ultra fine cut polish the results look GREAT and the paint is LSP ready.

I actual foresaw someone bringing up your topic as I wrote out my reply...


:D

[Radarryan]

Truthfully, the I am applying the SF4500 to remove the Opti-Coat 2.0, not necessary to remove defects. There may be a few, but not enough for me to get a pad/polish out over.

I just enjoy detailing so much (don't we all) and am excited to see Menzerna SF4500 amp up the gloss even more than before.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but will SF4500, while being an "ultra" fine-cut polish, will still cut enough to remove the Opti-Coat 2.0? I hate to have to do a two-step just to remove a coating that is 1 micron thick, just to turn around and put another coating on (this time I'm trying out the GTechniq C1 with EXOv2 topper).

Like previously posted in the OP, I will be using a Lake Country Hydrotech Crimson Ultra-Finishing Pad to ensure there is no micro-marring that I experienced with LC CCS Grey Finishing pads.

[Helltopay]

I just received FG400 and SF4000 that I hope will remove the heavier swirls and RIDS from my car (Alpine White BMW). I have previously tried Poor Boys products; however, they failed to provide the level of correction I was expecting (nothing against Poor Boys as their products worked wonderfully on my truck). I only have Lake Country CCS pads. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears, based on your posts, that the CCS pads are not the proper pads to use for the FG 400 or the SF 4000. I do not mind ordering new pads, I just want to make sure that I am doing things correctly. If the LC CCS will not work, does anyone have a suggestion (I was thinking the LC Hydro-Tech, and if I used those, which level of cut with which product). Please accept my apologies Radarryan for interjecting a question into your thread, the line of discussion was in line with my problem.

[swanicyouth]

To be honest... at this level of finishing it doesn't make that much difference, at least not enough to start a flame war over. I've talked to others about this and some choose to keep firm pressure for each and every single section pass just like they are removing defects.

I've done it this way and got great results.

But for some reason, it just never feels right, so maybe I'm the only one that feels this way. I always say,


"Polishing paint is an art form, not a grinding process. Getting show car results requires the right pads, products tools and techniques plus the human elements of care and passion"

That is, the person doing the work has to actually care about what they are doing as in moving the polisher over the paint.

I always feel like I'm grinding when I keep firm downward pressure for the last few passes with an ULTRA FINE cut polish. Keep in mind, all the polish at the end of the buffing cycle is "spent polish" and if the polish is cutting, or abrading, or burnishing, (use the word you like), then it is removing some measure of paint particles and I just don't want to cram this stuff "into" the paint as the pad is moving over it.

Again, might just be me but I've experimented both ways and again... "at this level" of polishing with an ultra fine cut polish the results look GREAT and the paint is LSP ready.

I actual foresaw someone bringing up your topic as I wrote out my reply...


:D

I was actually anticipating a reply like this as well :). Would you do it difference if it was a SMAT polish. like Optimum Finish Polish?

[Mike Phillips]

Would you do it difference if it was a SMAT polish. like Optimum Finish Polish?




I doubt it. Kind of goes back to the idea of grinding versus polishing. Might do it that way with a compound because for me, at the compounding step it matters less as the polishing step is for clean up and maximizing results.

This kind of starts to make doing something really simple rocket science when it's really not.


:D

[Mike Phillips]

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but will SF4500, while being an "ultra" fine-cut polish, will still cut enough to remove the Opti-Coat 2.0?




I don't know for sure, I don't think anyone really does wiithout putting your car under a very powerful microscope.

I've "read" that to remove it you need to compound but the coating is so thin, at least one application is so thin, that I think machine polishing and doing careful "Section Passes" with the SF 4500 will suffice and you can move onto your next step.


:)

[SonOfOC]

Truthfully, the I am applying the SF4500 to remove the Opti-Coat 2.0, not necessary to remove defects. There may be a few, but not enough for me to get a pad/polish out over.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but will SF4500, while being an "ultra" fine-cut polish, will still cut enough to remove the Opti-Coat 2.0? I hate to have to do a two-step just to remove a coating that is 1 micron thick, just to turn around and put another coating on (this time I'm trying out the GTechniq C1 with EXOv2 topper).

IMO, I suggest going over the car with something that has a little more bite than SF4500, something like SF2500, Optimum Hyper Polish, or even SF4000 with Tangerine HT or white polishing pad.

SF4500 + Crimson pad + DA has almost zero correcting power and it would not be efficient in removing OC.