Older Cars: Dump $$$ or Trade In ???

[swanicyouth]

I'm looking for opinions from everyone out there. I know there are financial guys out there, and just people with good sense.

My situation is, my DD (01 Nissan Pathfinder 4x4 /104k miles) MAY need a very large repair ($$$). I'm thinking around 3.5k (4 cats & exhaust). While normally I would tackle any repair myself, I don't really have the facilities to do this particular job, as on this vehicle its extra difficult. Exhausts manifolds must come out, bolts on this vehicle have a reputation for breaking in the head, and it may require acetylene torch, etc... I owe about 1k on the vehicle. Other than that, its in as perfect shape inside and out as a 12 year old DD can be.

My situation is such that I need a 4x4 vehicle for snow, as my career requires I make it to work no matter what the weather is. My other vehicle (BMW) is useless in snow, and I'm not interested in getting rid of it. I'm 2 years in out of 5 into paying the BMW.

So, instead of fixing the PF, I'm thinking of trading it in for a 2011 certified PF ( 30k mile / 7 yr 100k warranty / 23k $$$). I really don't want another 5 years of payments, as I wanted to buy a house in the somewhat near future (rent now). However, I do need a reliable 4x4 to get to work.

While I could afford the new vehicle, I really don't want to have 2 car payments and continue to rent. The reason why I bought the 01 PF initially was because it was in great shape, ran well, has a reputation for achieving high mileage, and was fairly inexpensive for a 4x4 SUV.

Now I'm not sure if it makes sense to put a large amount of dollars into it, with no guarantee it could need more in the future. Buying a "new" PF would alleviate that, as it would be certified and come with a decent warranty.

Any advice or opinions?

[vegas911gts]

I would just fix what you got and hope nothing else major breaks. At least its not a mustang. When I had one in college, everything and I mean everything broke at least once or twice.

[JAF06SE]

Maybe look for a little bit older pathy. One that you could have a smaller loan on and maybe not as long or smaller payments. I have an 06 Frontier that I bought new and I haven't had any major issues with it. Nothing that has cost more than 200 including labor to fix. And that has only been once or twice.

[swanicyouth]

I would just fix what you got and hope nothing else major breaks. At least its not a mustang. When I had one in college, everything and I mean everything broke at least once or twice.

I'm leaning towards keeping it. I just dropped it at the Nissan dealer. I've put a lot of hard work and dollars into this car getting rid of dents, getting panels repainted, getting it defect free, etc... where now it looks like a well maintained 2 or 3 year old vehicle. The interior is perfect and I only owe a grand on it.

I just hate the thought of dumping money into it, and something else could go wrong. Or the dealer could pull, it needed this, but, we hung those parts now it needs: this, that, and the other thing.

[swanicyouth]

Maybe look for a little bit older pathy. One that you could have a smaller loan on and maybe not as long or smaller payments. I have an 06 Frontier that I bought new and I haven't had any major issues with it. Nothing that has cost more than 200 including labor to fix. And that has only been once or twice.

I thought of that as well. But if I'm going to get into another loan, I want something with a decent warranty, as 4-5k repair bills are common place these days if something really bad goes wrong.

[AutowerxDetailing]

Since it sounds like it is in really great shape visually I would keep it and fix whatever mechanically is wrong with it. Even if you had to rebuild the engine from a major break down it would be cheaper in the long run. And it's possible that with routine maintenance you could take her to 200k with no issues. Plus, by not getting the new one, it puts you that much closer to the goal of home ownership!

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[Setec Astronomy]

Fix it. Maybe try an independent repair shop, dealer can be really ridicuolous sometimes.

EDIT: Why all 4 cats and the exhaust? Is it throwing a code?

[Ron Atchison]

Fix it. Maybe try an independent repair shop, dealer can be really ridicuolous sometimes.


:iagree: First thing to remember is stay off the car lot or you will bring home a new one.

[JAF06SE]

I thought of that as well. But if I'm going to get into another loan, I want something with a decent warranty, as 4-5k repair bills are common place these days if something really bad goes wrong.

Very true. I'd get it fixed and keep it. Do you live somewhere that you have regular smog inspections? If not, cut off he cats and put a new exhaust system on it. Save you a lot of money.

[swanicyouth]

Fix it. Maybe try an independent repair shop, dealer can be really ridicuolous sometimes.

EDIT: Why all 4 cats and the exhaust? Is it throwing a code?

No no codes at all. It's odd. I was driving yesterday on the highway and went to pass someone. All of a sudden, the vehicle lost power (acceleration power - not electrical). It's fine up to 20 mph. However, when trying to accelerate faster, it can't get out of its own way. It's hard to even get it up a hill now. Transmission is not slipping.

The odd thing is, this happened all of a sudden when I went to pass / gunned the engine. The same time this happened, (whats sounds like) the exhaust pitch changed under load to a "lawn mower type" whine - only under load. I was under the vehicle yesterday, there is no external exhaust leaks and the "whine" can't be duplicated in park revving the engine, or in drive revving the engine - only under load while driving. So, I can't pinpoint if its coming from the exhaust or transmission - but it seems to go with engine speed. The cats didn't seem abnormally hot while vehicle was idling.

It almost FEELS like the torque converter isn't transmitting power under load or something broke in the torque converter. Like something is fighting the engine. Transmission fluid is red, full, and shows no signs of any issues. The vehicle drives fine / has no symptoms at take off and up to 20 mph or so. When the power loss starts, the "whine" starts.

So, now I'm thinking it's cats or a torque converter. Again, no CEL light / transmission light and I scanned it - no codes. I'm thinking I gunned it and the extra pressure broke up an already weak catalyst material from its mounting (internally) and plugged up the catalyst exit. However, the exhaust seems to "breath well" at the tailpipe. But, its a V6 and the primary cats are right off the exhausts manifold on opposite sides - so, I'm thinking its one bank only.

What makes me think its cats is the particular vehicle (Pathfinder R50) has a history of plugged cats. However, I can't seem to find anyone who says it happened suddenly like me on the Internet. I can't seem to find any histories if a torque converter failure for this vehicle. (R50). Fuel filter was changed recently. I almost would think it was something simple like a sensor or fuel filter, accept: there are no codes (like lean mixture) and because of the loud whine. The "whine" sounds like its air, intake, or exhaust related - or possibly in the torque converter. It almost sounds like exhaust is trying to exit through the intake manifold. However, there are no exhaust leaks at idle or revving the engine in park or drive.

This vehicle has both Power Valves and Swirl Control Valve. These are separate sets of butterfly valves in the intake (vacuum controlled) that open at different times to regulate intake efficiency. Both are free and show no obvious external sides if issues.

So, based on all this (and no codes) and the history of the R50, I'm thinking one if the cats broke up suddenly internally and clogged the exhaust exit from the side/bank. I'm guessing there are no codes because the ECM monitors catalyst efficiency via the secondary EGOs - not flow. I'm thinking most other issues (timing chain jumped, bad coil, MAF sensor failure) would trigger a code and wouldn't cause the "whine" noise.

I don't know. I'm guessing its cats - the vehicle has 4. Two primary and secondary (each bank). Also, I'm assuming you would want to replace all 4 as a set. Also, the rest of the exhaust is original and is pretty rusty.

Aftermarket bolt on cats (for 4) are about $800 on the Internet, I'm guessing the dealer would charge more for the parts - probably $1200. Them the rest of the exhaust would need to be replaced. Likely another $450 I'm parts with dealer mark up. With gaskets, labor, bolts, etc... I'm expecting a bill close to 3k.

Why did I take it to the Nissan dealer opposed to an Indy shop? The answer is, I've never had to take my cars anywhere to be fixed. It was always under warranty or, I did it myself. I think this is my first service for a repair ever. I don't know any Indy shops for that reason. I go to the dealer yearly for inspection, so I have somewhat a relationship with them.

From when I was 17 to 24 I worked at a Ford dealer as a mechanic. I had 6 ASEs and went to tech school. From that experience, I know that sometimes issues like this can be somewhat hard to diagnose, especially if there is no codes. If I knew an Indy shop that was good with issues like this, I would take it there. I chose to take it to the dealer hoping their experience/ diagnostic equipment for/ with this vehicle / engine would lead to a quick and accurate diagnosis.

I realize dealers are expensive and don't mind paying $$$. However, if the repairs approach 3k, I'm just thinking of trading it for something with a long warranty. The funny thing is, this vehicle DOES have an aftermarket warranty. It covers engine(and internals), transmission and 4x4 parts (and internals), and drive line parts - not cats. So, maybe I should hope it is a torque converter.

I'm half venting / half looking for advice here.

Thanks.

[arjo.reich]

No no codes at all. It's odd. I was driving yesterday on the highway and went to pass someone. All of a sudden, the vehicle lost power (acceleration power - not electrical). It's fine up to 20 mph. However, when trying to accelerate faster, it can't get out of its own way. It's hard to even get it up a hill now. Transmission is not slipping.

The odd thing is, this happened all of a sudden when I went to pass / gunned the engine. The same time this happened, (whats sounds like) the exhaust pitch changed under load to a "lawn mower type" whine - only under load. I was under the vehicle yesterday, there is no external exhaust leaks and the "whine" can't be duplicated in park revving the engine, or in drive revving the engine - only under load while driving. So, I can't pinpoint if its coming from the exhaust or transmission - but it seems to go with engine speed. The cats didn't seem abnormally hot while vehicle was idling.

My 2000 Toyota Echo had the same problem, I'd have to get out my Flintstone feet to get up a hill because of the loss of power - and in Tennessee, that can be a PITA.

And it was the cat, also. Funny thing is I still got 38MPG riding for three years with that bad cat and a leaky exhaust manifold gasket. I couldn't fix mine, or of practicality because the manifold bolts were bent and the cost of remachining them outpaced the trade-in value not including fixing the cat. I had trouble codes however of it running lean because the manifold gasket is in between the two O2 sensors.

All that being said, I'd still fix it. Toyota's are worth far more than trade-in or scrap value, especially once it's been "conditioned" for the first 100k miles. If it looks good on the exterior, and it's still handy, fix it.

Lucky Joe,
Wannabe Detailer

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[Shortspark]

It all comes down to money and budget. For the last 30 years or so I have had one mantra - keep no car longer than five years or 50,000 miles. You have to budget wisely from the moment you buy the first car through the next five years. It was my experience before I decided going this route, that around 50,000 to 75,000 miles or so problems would develop and I would have to be inconvenienced and nickle and dimed to death with repairs. I know autos are built differently these days and should be trouble free beyond 50,000 miles but in my case I seldom put on more than 8,000 miles a year on a car anyway. And, quite frankly, I get tired of the same car after five years and want something new. But as I said, it is all a matter of finance and the ability to budget the money properly.

So, my advice is (if you can afford it that is), dump your vehicle, buy a new car that has at least a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty and at the end of that period start the process all over again.

[Setec Astronomy]

Did you look at the intake side at all? It sure sounds like something with that variable-geometry intake system. You said it seems like good exhaust flow and nothing overheating, doesn't do it in park, etc., I'd think that variable intake doesn't operate under no load. You sure something isn't failing to open when it's supposed to? (oh yeah, that's why you're taking it to the dealer). If those intake dohickeys are vacuum powered, did you check anything for a blown diaphragm?

[Klasse Act]

Since this is a problem on PF's does the dealership offer any type of "relief"? Is going to an off-road shop and going aftermarket an option? Since the repair isn't something mechanical I'd make the repair either way and keep the truck, you know this truck inside and out and its almost paid for.

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[swanicyouth]

Did you look at the intake side at all? It sure sounds like something with that variable-geometry intake system. You said it seems like good exhaust flow and nothing overheating, doesn't do it in park, etc., I'd think that variable intake doesn't operate under no load. You sure something isn't failing to open when it's supposed to? (oh yeah, that's why you're taking it to the dealer). If those intake dohickeys are vacuum powered, did you check anything for a blown diaphragm?

That's what it seems like it could be. The one vacuum doohickey can only be accessed underneath the intake, but I was able to check the linkage - its free. It could be the other doohickey. Either way, if that's what it is, both systems have associated codes to them - and I got no codes. I don't have a vacuum pump and figures if one of them tested bad, I'd have to wait to get the part anyway until the dealer opened.

If that's all it is, l gladly pay the dealer to fix it. As, I'm bracing myself for a huge bill, and that wouldn't be too bad.

I've pretty much made up my mind to keep the vehicle. I just love it. I love the color, the interior, the way it drives etc... I'm looking at it as the possible amount to fix it would likely be at least what I'd put down on a new one (3k) - but with a new one I'd be strapped with 5 years of payments.

Plus, trading it in with a heavy problem (if one exists) will make it hardly worth anything. Fixing it correctly turns it into something I can trade in a year or so from now that has no loan on it.

Well, I'll find out tomorrow what it is. If its something simple, boy will I feel dumb.

Thanks for everyone's input.