Heavy Swirls/Mineral Deposits, what do you recommend?

[William D.]

Hi all,


I recently picked up a real nice garaged Lincoln Town Car that looks beautiful, aside from the fact it appears to have been treated from time to time with a brush-style car wash.


The paint still shines really well, and looks new, but when the sun hits it just right (or especially artificial lighting) all the swirls make it a real eyesore.

In addition to that, the top layer of the car has quite a few etchings from water sitting on it as well that I'd like to remove.

I do not have a power buffer, I'll be working by hand, as I cannot afford to buy a DA at the moment, nor do I really know the proper way to use one. (Thankfully, there are some nice how-to videos on here.)


What products/pads would you recommend I use to remove a fair amount of these marks? I'm not expecting a scratch free finish, as this is a semi- DD car, but if I could remove a large amount of them, it would sure look better parked in front of a store at night.

I will take some photos, but it is raining outside, so it makes it difficult to reveal the flaws. Shouldn't be a problem tomorrow night.

I've already tried clay-barring the car, and it didn't do anything to correct the mineral deposits.

Honestly, if I could just remove those, I'd be happy. Then I could have the car's paint corrected when the funds allowed.


In addition, does anyone on here do paint correction in the Hampton Roads/Williamsburg area? Just SE Virginia in general, but driving to Richmond wouldn't be too bad either.


I've read a lot of good things about Meguiars M105/205, but not sure how forgiving they are/how well they work by hand. I don't want to polish through the clear, that would be devastating. :(

[Fishincricket]

I've had some wonderful results with the Ultimate Polish and Ultimate Compound from meguiars, working by hand.. Nice GMC's, BTW.

[William D.]

Thanks! :D


I might have both of those in the shed, just have to remove all the junk to get in there.




Actually, I didn't realize a new PC could be picked up for $120 shipped, I might very well pick one up.


Is it a good tool for a beginner to use? If need be, I'll buy a hood at a junkyard to practice on.


Assuming I buy the 7424, what pads/products would be good to use?

If I don't, any specific pads I should use for polishing?

[Fishincricket]

There are at least fifty threads here dedicated to those very subjects, my friend. After much research I decided to go with the Griots Garage version of the 7424 (because of the lifetime warranty) and have had no issues on the few cars I've done.

I'm sure someone with more experience will chime in soon.

[cardaddy]

William,

First, that is a good find. Although I don't see you EVER working that faded paint by hand. That is gonna' kill ya' dude! By the time you get it done that way you'll be hating the day you ever saw it. Do yourself a favor and buy a Griot's Garage buffer. Then grab a 5" backing plate and say 4 yellow, 4 orange, 2 white and 2 blue pads. I mean you'll end up dropping maybe $200 on that package. I know that sounds like a lot, but at the end of the day its about the only way that Lincoln is going to get whipped back into shape without wearing out both your arms, shoulders and back! ;)

Plus.... you will get great service from it, and not only get that new/old car whipped back in shape but your other cars can be spotless as well. That's a win-win! :)

Don't worry about not knowing how to use it, it is pretty much idiot proof. Check out the videos on head speed and arm speed, keep the pad moving (in circles) and before you know it the old Lincoln will be looking like new.

You said you might have some Meguiars Ultimate Compound, and Ultimate Polish. Those are an excellent start! If the UC doesn't quite give the cut you need, you should be able to find some more aggressive compounds (I wouldn't suggest you try 101 though, it's just too hard to work with.) There are plenty of compounds out there, the newest (and very easy to work with) is the Meguiar's 101 but it's expensive. Works GREAT and certainly would make dealing with that faded paint a lot easier but you don't just have to have it. Although.... 205 is a great product and can really help get the best out of a paint job. Just throwing ideas out there.

Later,
Cardaddy

[Joelotto]

:iagree: Get the GG polisher and a good assortment of pads. I'm new to detailing also....so my advise would be work small areas at a time and keep the pads clean and know when it's time to change or wash them. On a positive note....it's really hard to damage the paint unless you stay in one spot for a really long time with a DA and be careful on paint that is on plastic like front and rear bumpers as they get hot real fast. I've used m105, m205 but just did my car and my mothers car with Menzerna fg400 and I really like it. I used an orange pad with the FG400 and the paint looks good in one step...white paint. Just my 2 cents....read and watch as many videos as you can and anything you have questions about just ask in the forum.........there are a ton of great people here.:buffing:

[tuscarora dave]

Hi William.

In a perfect situation, it would be good to know as much about the history of the paint as possible as well as it's current condition as well.

A little insight to help explain the above statement.

You mention the car having bad swirls from what you think might be the automatic (with brushes) car wash.

Let's think a little about abrasives and how they can effect a paint system. One of the most often advised techniques where paint polishing is concerned is to work clean. Working clean can mean a few different things, such as being sure the work area is free of dust that could settle on the paint during a polishing session, being sure that the paint is first clayed so that particles of contamination such as stuck on grit (dirt) or brake\ rail dust are first removed from the paint before attempting to polish paint. In short....we don't want this abrasive grit being rubbed against the paint.

Whenever a gritty particle is allowed to be rubbed against the paint it causes a scratch or better said, it removes a little bit of paint from the car. Please click on the below thread, (written by Mike Phillips) then come back here and read the rest of my reply.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/30565-swirls-scratches-don-t-exist.html

After reading Mike's very insightful article, let's think about what actually happens when a car is run through the automatic (with brushes) car wash. But first let's think about what makes up a polish and how paint is removed from a car during a polishing session.

There are both "abrasive polishes" and "chemical polishes". Let's take Meguiar's M-105 Ultra Cut Compound for instance, you'll be mechanically abrading the paint (either by hand or machine) which is actually removing a thin layer of the car's paint in order to level it to the base of the scratches and swirls. In short we'll just call it "making the paint look good".

There are also "chemical polishes" which contain chemicals that will remove a thin layer of paint from the car when mechanically rubbed (either by hand or machine) against the paint, "making the paint look good".

OK back to the automatic car washes.... Imagine this for a minute...

A car owner drives his/her car for a few weeks and begins to see the car getting pretty dirty. He\she thinks..."Man I got to get this car washed...if I only had the time right now".. The car owner continues about their busy day, pledging to get the car washed as soon as time (or weather) permits. Everyone is so busy these days that there should be 30 hours in a day to get everything done and have a little restful down time in front of the tube or with the grandkids.

What often happens is the car washing duties get put off until the car owner simply can't stand the thick layer of crud building on the car so they eventually get to the automatic (with brushes) car wash, because we all know that the touchless car wash does nothing for a really dirty car.

He/she finally makes the time to run the car through the car wash where first....the car gets treated to a generous coating of a harsh sodium hydroxide based (chemical) detergent to begin to loosen up the dirt on the car. Next the spinning brushes come down and do their work, slapping and spinning the chemical detergent and the trillions of abrasive particles of dirt against the paint.

Now if both chemicals and abrasives will remove a very thin layer of paint from a car....doesn't it stand to reason that each time a car is taken through an automatic (with brushes) car wash...combined with the fact that "swirls and scratches don't exist" there could have potentially been a decent percent of the paint removed over the years of this typical treatment?

We haven't even talked yet about the few times (including the dealership prep) that the car might have had a rotary buffer and wool pads taken to the paint by dealerships or production detail shops removing even more of the precious clear coat. When I think of the typical treatment that a daily driver could have had in it's day, (thinking from a paint correcter's standpoint) it reminds me of this video.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0epRjfGLw]Tootsie Pop - YouTube[/video]

The moral of the story I guess would be to go slow and easy.

You mention that cutting through the clear would be devastating, and you're searching and researching for a solution to "make your paint look better" and seeing a bunch of replies with folks recommending products such as M-105 (a very fast cutting, temperamental product that has your typical newbie trying and trying to perfect the use of on a potentially already thinned paint system, with what you call "mineral deposits".

Are they actually mineral deposits, or are they mineral deposit etchings...or both combined? Mineral deposits are very hard (way harder than paint) and are potentially very abrasive when scrubbed (either by hand or machine) against paint.

I'm not trying to invoke fear or discredit anyone's advice, but rather attempting to paint a picture of the facts that could be potentially involved in correcting an older paint system that has both been run through the automatic car washes and has had "paint destroying" hard water mineral deposits dwelling on it for who knows how long.

I'm simply challenging you (or anyone reading this for that matter) to think a little deeper about what you're about to do to your car's paint system. I'd recommend that you first do a little more research into mineral deposits, their subsequent etchings, what you're actually dealing with, (Mineral deposits or etchings or both) what they are and how they're removed, clear coat thickness, what it takes to cut through thinned clear coat and the fact that there are a ton of Lincolns running around with the paint just disintegrating off of the car.

I'd recommend a vinegar treatment for any mineral deposits present, a chemical polish such as Poorboy's World Pro Polish (original formula) and a foam polishing pad either worked by hand or machine.

Just some thoughts based on my own experience, hope it helps. TD

[William D.]

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the response, (as well as everyone else, just replying mainly to Dave at the moment) here is what I know.


The car itself was very well maintained, lived it's life in a garage, and wasn't driven very regularly, and only in nicer weather (your typical "little old lady car"). Normally, stories like this are told when selling an older car ad naseum, but because of the exceptional condition of the car, and all the maintenance history, I believe it to be correct. It's a gently used car, only having traveled a little over 74,000 miles in 12 years, and every aspect of it (from the wiper cowl, door seals, suspension, frame, exhaust, etc. all look like this car is under a year old. There is absolutely no rust anywhere, and all of the rubber and trim are still like new. The car even smells new, in fact.

I can't speak for how often it was washed, but I'd like to think with the conditions it was used it, it wasn't terribly regularly. Now, I say "automatic car wash", but I really have no way of knowing this.

The car has moderate swirls on the vertical surface when the light hits it, but it isn't "blinding" like it is on some vehicles. It is noticeable, but it doesn't detract from the first impression of the car. I'll snap a few photos at work tomorrow of the marks I am referring to.

The paint still has that "showroom new" glossiness to it, and still has a lot of depth and clarity. The only flaws (aside from a rock chip and scratch here and there) are the swirls, which are of the normal amount for a car it's age.



Back to the DA......


I see several of you have mentioned the Griots Garage model. A lot of people say it seems to work more like a rotary than a DA, and will cut faster than a PC will.

Since I am new to this, does the GG model create a lot more heat compared to the PC 7424? In the demo video for the PC, Mr. Phillips used a PC to remove swirls (with similar severity to the ones on my car) rather quickly with the Wolfgang Twins.

The speed at which he accomplished this (spread it out quickly, then 5-6 slow, overlapping passes per section) seems fine to me, especially compared to hand polishing.



Which would you all think would be best for a beginner, a PC or Griots? Obviously, whichever one I buy, I will make sure I know how to use it properly before setting off to work with it, but a professional (or at least experienced) recommendation is always welcome.



Only halfway decent photo I have of it on Photobucket:

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk282/1994LTCSS/C1F2EA54-9195-4C0A-9FF0-7474E5933B5A-4531-0000044682E58AD8.jpg


I'll snap some tomorrow to show you what I'm referring to. I guess it would be mineral etching, vs. deposits. Clay-barring doesn't do anything to remove them.

[spiralout462]

Nice car William D. I was in a similar situation several months ago. I read and read and researched and researched. Every PRO was saying get a GG machine but I kept going back to and eventually purchased the PC7424XP. I think one reason I did was because I was unsure that I needed or wanted more power. I was looking for a machine to learn on and perform mild polishing. The name Porter Cable probably had something to do with my decision as well. That being said, I absolutely LOVE my Porter Cable 7424 xp! It has done everything I have asked for and more. With the right technique, product, and pad combination any polisher will get the job done. I'm not trying to persuade you in one direction or another, I'm just sharing my experience, for what it's worth.

BTW: I'm from the Eastern Shore of VA.

[William D.]

That's the kind of response I was looking for. :D


I'm fine with buying something that is more efficient at doing it's job, but when there is also a (higher) danger of damaging the paint, I'd hate for my lack of experience with a DA ruin a perfectly nice car.


Here are a few photos of the swirls/etching. Went by the store for a second, had a good opportunity.


http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk282/1994LTCSS/91689A8C-6289-4C0B-8326-D7E9A1D3F9B0-3588-000003D2C593F7F3.jpg http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk282/1994LTCSS/FD6B7DA1-B215-4AE5-9CF8-5777FF5BA436-3588-000003D2CAB61DD7.jpg http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk282/1994LTCSS/5D6F9790-51F5-4496-B99D-52E29EF96213-3588-000003D2BF9C695F.jpg

[Vegas Transplant]

I concur with spiralout462...the pc will serve you well.

I did one maint. wash and 1 AIO topped with 845 on Sunday. What the PC and AIO left behind, the 845 filled in. I'm kicking myself for not taking an after sunshot. The only aftershot was with the sun at my back.


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1509/caddy_resize_1.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/55887)


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1509/caddy_resize_3.png (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/55888)

[cardaddy]

William,

First, I'm not a pro... just an old retired guy. For my money I wanted the best DA I could get for that investment. The Griot's fits that bill, and with a lifetime warranty it doesn't get any better that that.

I own 5 cars so figured if I never did anything but keep them up it'd be more than up to the task. (It replaced an older Makita DA.) That being said, my kid is learning to detail (from me) and will be doing neighbors and friends cars for some extra cash. The way I looked at it was if pros used it then it was good enough for me.:xyxthumbs:

As for it working more like a rotary, that isn't true. It works like a DA, a good DA. If you put too much pressure on it the pad will stop rotating, that will NOT happen with a rotary. The reason you may have understood it that way is it does the job that people just a few years ago could not do with a DA. What it will not do is burn paint like a rotary.

I don't see how it would damage a paint job unless it was left on speed 6, in one place, with the the hardest cutting pad you can find that was DIRTY and loaded with crud, pushing down with a ton of force for 10 minutes straight. ;) (Well maybe not that bad..... but you get the idea.) :)

Either will work, so there really isn't a 'wrong' choice. But I suspect since the Griot's hit the shelves it's taken a TON of market share from Porter Cable. FWIW my Grandfather used a PC saw back in the 20's and passed it down to my Dad, that I used when I was in my 20's (the 70's). Later my brother stole everything my Dad owned and I've not seen it since. (and a lot of what I owned) :(

[William D.]

Ok then, Griots it is then.


Now, I'm going to get the combo with the Wolfgang Twins, and 3 pads for $169.


What else do I need? A member here said I would need a total of 4 orange pads, and 4 white pads (and a grey one, if I wanted to wax with the DA).....what brand of pads are best to get? I'm sure they are all good, but anyone have a special preference?

[spiralout462]

^^I enjoy the Lake Country 5.5" Flat pads. The 5.5" Hydrotech low profile pads are very nice as well. I also find myself using a 3.5" backing plate with 4" Hydrotechs frequently. The particular pads you will need totally depends on your paint system. For example a gray finishing pad with a fine cut polish provides plenty of correction power on my Toyota Tacoma, but that wouldn't work for my wifes Camry of the same year. I would recommend getting as many pads as your budget allows. I got a couple of each color when I started. After my first time buffing out a car I quickly ordered many more. It is so much easier (necessary) to work with a clean pad, and cleaning on the fly will only get you but so far. Generally you will need more of the ones that will do the "dirty work" (orange, white). IMO

[spiralout462]

http://autogeek.commerce-search.net/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Flake-country-beveled-pad-kit.html
Lake Country Hydro-Tech 5 1/2 x 7/8 Inch Foam Pads 3 Pack - Your Choice! (http://autogeek.commerce-search.net/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Fhydro tech-low-profile-3pack.html)
Lake Country Hydro-Tech 4 x 1.25 Inch Foam Pads, Hydrotech foam buffing pads, spot polishing pads, dual action pads (http://autogeek.commerce-search.net/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Fhydro tech-4inch-foam-pads.html)

Keep in mind I haven't been machine polishing for long but these are a few options that are popular and were recommended to me.