I'm baffled - still have swirls after hours of work

[cardaddy]

Bill,

There have been some great suggestions and links for info that'll help. This looks like arm speed more than anything. You mentioned "5" as your buffer speed and that should be OK, might even be able to bump it up to 5½. Didn't catch the pads and size you are using in the thread. If they are 6½'s it's gonna' take higher speeds on the PC to keep the pad moving.

Your paint can come out flawless with the pads and material you have, just slow down and work on technique.

For priming the pad make sure to wear gloves. Start by giving it a whirl and start on the outside with a slow constant stream making a spiral all the way to about ½" from the center. Lay your index finger across the pad and take your other hand and slowly turn it, forcing the material into the pores. Once it's all worked in check it for any dry spots and apply in every place you see one. For that matter, you can give it a whirl in the opposite direction and again put a spiral on it. Working it all in with your thumbs till you see a nice even distribution a good ½" down throughout the pad.

Working with 105 is tricky (as you've noticed) and if it's not working for you just grab a bottle of Ultimate Compound. It'll cut almost as good and work what feels like forever. If you still want to work with 105 one trick I've found that if you prime the pad with UC you'll get much improved workability from the beginning. AFTER IT IS PRIMED you don't need anything more than 3 pea sized drops about ½" to ¾" in from the outside edge to start on your panel.

Turn the speed down to 2 and do a really quick pass over your area, making sure it's all covered. If it's not covered by your "pea primers" then your area is too large. Do not use more 105, just reduce the size of your working area.

When looking at the revolution speed you need a MINIMUM of 2 ~ 3 revolutions per second. Then with arm speed you should move s-l-o-w-l-y as little as 1" per second all the while keeping the revolution count up. Notice how the pad feels when you first start working the area you've pre-spread. Notice how it spins, how it drags across the surface. What'll happen with 105 is you will feel the pad start to 'catch' or 'jump' rather than keep moving at the speed you started at. Adding more just makes it worse as far as clumping up! You might need to literally work an area only 12" ~ 15" square at most until you get the 'feel' of it.

Another tool that REALLY works in your favor is a pad spur and a good brush. After every couple of section passes, hit it with the spur. After a section completion grab some pad cleaner (like XMT), give it a few pumps and work it in with your thumbs then turn the speed up to 3½~ 4 and give it a good whirl with the spur. Do the "clean on the fly" with a CLEAN THICK towel then adjust the speed where when you hit it with the brush you see it getting cleaner. If you do it right it'll almost look like new. :) Turn it on again and grab it with your towel. It needs to be cleaned between sections!

From there it's back to the 3 pea sized drops with every section you start. Count your section passes and repeat it exactly each time. What you might try is only doing 2 slow section passes and see how it wipes off. Then 3 and check it. Same thing for 4, 5, etc. At some point it'll get where it just doesn't want to come off. That's where it's gone too far.

Another thing is not only cleaning the pad(s) but changing them, a LOT. That's the bad news.... If you didn't change your pad often that may be where your problem is. Of course I'm just guessing here.

Looking at the swirls you have you're gonna' be putting them to work and the stuff they pick up will induce marring. Use 1 on the trunk, period and throw it in your Snappy clean bucket. Then 2~3 on the hood, 2~3 (or more) on the roof, and probably 2 or more on each side. The good news is once you get the heavy lifting done and move to 205 you can make the pads go further. Now not where you can get the entire car done with 3~4 but at least it doesn't take 8~10~12. ;)

I know you're thinking "this dude is crazy if he thinks I'm going to change pads that often" and I don't blame ya'. It is a lot but I've found out the hard way. I honestly do NOT think it's possible to do buffing and polishing without at least half a dozen of each color pad you might need. Not that the car, any car, can be done with only 6 pads! But at least it can be broken up into smaller sections that allow you to stay busy all day and get the area you are working on completed, from start to finish.

That being said; one way to get by with say half a dozen of each color/cut/use is just break the thing up into sections that you can do with the pads on hand. Take the horizontal sections for instance, or the front or rear (hood and fenders or trunk and quarter panels) perhaps. Plan out your work for the day, use up whatever pads you have and throw them in your cleaner as you go. Once you're done with the compounding stage take a break and go rinse out all those pads and pat them down between some big ol' soft towels and lay them out to dry. Then go ahead with the polishing stage. Same thing afterwards, like washing hair, rinse, lather, repeat. :laughing: The good thing is the next day (if you got them pre-dried good enough the day/night before) all of them will be ready to go the next morning. :xyxthumbs:

[steamshooter]

:wow::goodpost:
cardaddy, I could almost smell the compound while reading that. Very descriptive and detailed answer.

[Seth@NWCDetailing]

Bill,

There have been some great suggestions and links for info that'll help. This looks like arm speed more than anything. You mentioned "5" as your buffer speed and that should be OK, might even be able to bump it up to 5½. Didn't catch the pads and size you are using in the thread. If they are 6½'s it's gonna' take higher speeds on the PC to keep the pad moving.

Your paint can come out flawless with the pads and material you have, just slow down and work on technique.

For priming the pad make sure to wear gloves. Start by giving it a whirl and start on the outside with a slow constant stream making a spiral all the way to about ½" from the center. Lay your index finger across the pad and take your other hand and slowly turn it, forcing the material into the pores. Once it's all worked in check it for any dry spots and apply in every place you see one. For that matter, you can give it a whirl in the opposite direction and again put a spiral on it. Working it all in with your thumbs till you see a nice even distribution a good ½" down throughout the pad.

Working with 105 is tricky (as you've noticed) and if it's not working for you just grab a bottle of Ultimate Compound. It'll cut almost as good and work what feels like forever. If you still want to work with 105 one trick I've found that if you prime the pad with UC you'll get much improved workability from the beginning. AFTER IT IS PRIMED you don't need anything more than 3 pea sized drops about ½" to ¾" in from the outside edge to start on your panel.

Turn the speed down to 2 and do a really quick pass over your area, making sure it's all covered. If it's not covered by your "pea primers" then your area is too large. Do not use more 105, just reduce the size of your working area.

When looking at the revolution speed you need a MINIMUM of 2 ~ 3 revolutions per second. Then with arm speed you should move s-l-o-w-l-y as little as 1" per second all the while keeping the revolution count up. Notice how the pad feels when you first start working the area you've pre-spread. Notice how it spins, how it drags across the surface. What'll happen with 105 is you will feel the pad start to 'catch' or 'jump' rather than keep moving at the speed you started at. Adding more just makes it worse as far as clumping up! You might need to literally work an area only 12" ~ 15" square at most until you get the 'feel' of it.

Another tool that REALLY works in your favor is a pad spur and a good brush. After every couple of section passes, hit it with the spur. After a section completion grab some pad cleaner (like XMT), give it a few pumps and work it in with your thumbs then turn the speed up to 3½~ 4 and give it a good whirl with the spur. Do the "clean on the fly" with a CLEAN THICK towel then adjust the speed where when you hit it with the brush you see it getting cleaner. If you do it right it'll almost look like new. :) Turn it on again and grab it with your towel. It needs to be cleaned between sections!

From there it's back to the 3 pea sized drops with every section you start. Count your section passes and repeat it exactly each time. What you might try is only doing 2 slow section passes and see how it wipes off. Then 3 and check it. Same thing for 4, 5, etc. At some point it'll get where it just doesn't want to come off. That's where it's gone too far.

Another thing is not only cleaning the pad(s) but changing them, a LOT. That's the bad news.... If you didn't change your pad often that may be where your problem is. Of course I'm just guessing here.

Looking at the swirls you have you're gonna' be putting them to work and the stuff they pick up will induce marring. Use 1 on the trunk, period and throw it in your Snappy clean bucket. Then 2~3 on the hood, 2~3 (or more) on the roof, and probably 2 or more on each side. The good news is once you get the heavy lifting done and move to 205 you can make the pads go further. Now not where you can get the entire car done with 3~4 but at least it doesn't take 8~10~12. ;)

I know you're thinking "this dude is crazy if he thinks I'm going to change pads that often" and I don't blame ya'. It is a lot but I've found out the hard way. I honestly do NOT think it's possible to do buffing and polishing without at least half a dozen of each color pad you might need. Not that the car, any car, can be done with only 6 pads! But at least it can be broken up into smaller sections that allow you to stay busy all day and get the area you are working on completed, from start to finish.

That being said; one way to get by with say half a dozen of each color/cut/use is just break the thing up into sections that you can do with the pads on hand. Take the horizontal sections for instance, or the front or rear (hood and fenders or trunk and quarter panels) perhaps. Plan out your work for the day, use up whatever pads you have and throw them in your cleaner as you go. Once you're done with the compounding stage take a break and go rinse out all those pads and pat them down between some big ol' soft towels and lay them out to dry. Then go ahead with the polishing stage. Same thing afterwards, like washing hair, rinse, lather, repeat. :laughing: The good thing is the next day (if you got them pre-dried good enough the day/night before) all of them will be ready to go the next morning. :xyxthumbs:

Awesome post!
Not only does this help Bill, but I just learned a lot of important tips that can help me with my paint correction when I do end up offering it!
Thanks cardaddy
:xyxthumbs:

[DaC]

You are correct sir. I should have never bothered with 105.

I spoke with a local guy here who told me to wash the car with citrus wash again, get some black pads and use 205.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's was an good advice.... let me tell you this:

I use to work on some very soft paints... so soft that anything above PO85RD (SF4500) and a black pad (or crimson), will leave it with haze....

But these scratches seems rather strange to me... doesn't looks like m105 or m205 haze at all..... seems more like dirty towel or foam applicator.... something like that... maybe dry buffing... :dunno:

I did the same mistake: buying too much aggressive stuff before know the type of paint I would be dealing with...

In the beginning I didn't knew how to recognize a polishing haze.... it's funny looking back at pictures that confused me 1.5 year ago and now is pretty obvious.

This is a compound Haze... (M105 or M205, can't remember + Cyan Pad on a very soft black) - click on it to get full size

http://s5.postimage.org/a28ww6aaf/DSC06239.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/x3pi1x9xv/full/)


BTW.... you asked about towels.... buy these: Super Soft Deluxe Blue Microfiber Towels, microfiber detailing towels, buffing towels, micro fiber towel, detail cloth (http://www.autogeek.net/super-soft-microfiber-towels.html)

Cheap, efficient, safe, no lint, easy to wash....

[tuscarora dave]

:wow::goodpost:
cardaddy, I could almost smell the compound while reading that. Very descriptive and detailed answer.


Awesome post!
Not only does this help Bill, but I just learned a lot of important tips that can help me with my paint correction when I do end up offering it!
Thanks cardaddy
:xyxthumbs:
:iagree: Great posting there!!!

To the OP.

Hang in there and keep on trying. You'll get it figured out. This stuff I'm reading in this thread is simply the normal learning curve regarding paint correction. One thing I'll add...

I have laundered, good towels (never touched the ground or work bench)...I have crappy contaminated towels (been on the ground or work bench) that will never touch paint again...and then...I have brand new towels still in the original packaging.

The laundered good towels will be used in my shop for wiping off after the M-105 compounding stages, then they go in a clean container to return to the washing machine. These towels will never touch the paint after the 205 polishing stage or 85RD (SF4500) jeweling stage.

If I get lazy and lay the towel down on the work bench, or it falls from my back packet onto the floor of the shop....it goes into the crappy towel bin to never see paint action again.

It is only the brand new towels that will ever touch paint in my shop after the M-205 polishing stage or 85RD (SF4500) jeweling stage. Once these brand new towels are laundered....they never see the paint again except for after the heavy correction (M-105) passes. Of course this is a policy I use when doing show car type of paint corrections. If I have a Taxi cab or a dump truck that I'm polishing for a customer...the crappy towels work just fine for that.

This towel policy affords me the ability to purchase and use cheap microfiber towels all the time (even for show car finishing on black paint) BUT...If I see microfiber towels at walmart or the auto parts store and they are laying on a shelf with a paper sleeve around just a portion of the towel (with the rest of the towel exposed to whatever dirt is on the shelf) these will not do for finishing duty. This type of towel will be fine for after compounding, but for finishing...I only buy towels that were packaged a dozen per bundle and bagged or wrapped completely in plastic from the factory. There are some bad batches yes....but I rarely see them.

I pay $12-$20 per dozen for towels from an auto detailing or auto body supply business and I have a moderate towel expense factored into the price of the work that I do. This expense can get pricey if I get busy, or if I get complacent with the policy and leave towels lay all over the shop...even so...the cost of new towels every time for finishing paint is nothing compared to the labor involved in re-polishing because of towel induced marring.

Just something to think about....TD

[Bill220]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the time you guys took to help me out.

I have 3 of each pad and will clean and swap out as suggested. Quick question; once I have them cleaned and rinsed, can I dry them on a low heat or air only setting in my clothes drier on a sweater rack? With the rack, the pads won't be in there bouncing around, they'll just be sitting on the rack. Or can I re-use the pads after washing them and squeezing out as much water as I can?

1/2 of my order showed up a few minutes ago. Once I get the other half (with the Brinkman light), I'll go at it again. I have some chips to fix on the hood that'll keep me busy until it arrives.

[cardaddy]

:wow::goodpost:
cardaddy, I could almost smell the compound while reading that. Very descriptive and detailed answer.


Awesome post!
Not only does this help Bill, but I just learned a lot of important tips that can help me with my paint correction when I do end up offering it!
Thanks cardaddy
:xyxthumbs:

Thanks guys.... really. I am honestly humbled. If there was an emoticon for a salute I'd use it, but this one will do.... :props:

As I've said before, I am not a pro (and don't pretend to be) but I am "detail" oriented. (detail, haaaa I made a funny) ;) I am working with my son in hopes he will pick up technique which we can parlay into a job for him that he might indeed enjoy.

What I do is pay attention to what works, and file that away in the ol' gray matter. (And now looking at the length of that post, I seem to have waaaaaaaay too much time on my hands as well!) :laughing:

In any event, I have learned a lot from trial and error, but moreover members here have been instrumental in my learning curve, one that started long before my 'join date' (as I lurked for a good year before that). When people speak I listen, when some speak I LISTEN INTENTLY.

Were I able to attend detailing seminars/classes/schooling I would whenever time allowed until I felt comfortable with the paint on the vehicles that I need to work with. eing a hobbiest one doesn't need to keep up to date with all the latest and greatest product/methods etc. OOTH Needless to say, if always working with new/different vehicles as a professional keeping up with "training" is essential to making yourself a better craftsman. And yes, detailing is a craft just as many many other, "working with your hands" industries. Whether those be a house painter, carpenter, woodworker, body man or painter, even auto mechanics (er. technicians). I mentioned painting because I also use 'pro' tools for that as well. Use a cheap paint brush and get a cheap paint job.

A man is only as good as his tools!

For instance, Dave's post about towels goes directly to point. We should never mix towels and/or pads for that matter. I mark all mine with what they've been used with. If I use a pad for 105 then it doesn't get used with 205. Towels that are removing mud and dirt don't get used to wipe down with Final Inspection.

I grade all of my towels (from the Costco cheapies to the best ones I own) based on their condition after the last use. Before washing they are seperated into their designated grades in an attempt to keep from cross contaminating. Only the top ones do QD and/or wax removal.

It's easy enough to take a marker to one corner so when picking one up I know if it's got a mark on it not to use it for finish work, but wiping up polish. If it's got 2 marks it's good for compound. Then 3 it goes to interior work or waterless duty. By that time it's easy to figure out which ones are left for wheels/tires etc.

Although, unlike Dave I will use a fresh batch from the laundry for paint duty but ONLY in the the same, (or less) capacity that they were used before. I also wash new towels before using to soften and raise the fibers. Dave is detaling royalty and if he says it's good enough for him, consider it carved in stone. :)

Luckily my washer allows for user programmable settings and I've made settings for "microfiber, car towels & car rags". I pre-soak, wash, extra rinse and extra spin my towels using the programmed settings. (Actually the dryer is told what to do by the washer via a serial cable so that part is easy.) ;)

[cardaddy]

That's was an good advice.... let me tell you this:.......

PO85RD (SF4500) and a black pad (or crimson), will leave it with haze....

But these scratches seems rather strange to me... doesn't looks like m105 or m205 haze at all..... seems more like dirty towel or foam applicator.... something like that... maybe dry buffing... :dunno:

I did the same mistake: buying too much aggressive stuff before know the type of paint I would be dealing with...

In the beginning I didn't knew how to recognize a polishing haze.... it's funny looking back at pictures that confused me 1.5 year ago and now is pretty obvious.


BINGO! :dblthumb2:

The least agressive method is always the best one. It's just so hard to look at all the new 'toys' and think that you don't need to use everything you have at your disposal. ;) I'd rather have a few swirls still show up in the bright sunlight than have spent hours and hours on end working on a car to see that it still is loaded with scratches that I likely put there.

[cardaddy]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the time you guys took to help me out.

I have 3 of each pad and will clean and swap out as suggested. Quick question; once I have them cleaned and rinsed, can I dry them on a low heat or air only setting in my clothes drier on a sweater rack? With the rack, the pads won't be in there bouncing around, they'll just be sitting on the rack. Or can I re-use the pads after washing them and squeezing out as much water as I can?

1/2 of my order showed up a few minutes ago. Once I get the other half (with the Brinkman light), I'll go at it again. I have some chips to fix on the hood that'll keep me busy until it arrives.

Drying on the sweater rack is a GREAT idea! :xyxthumbs: Make sure they are velcro side up. I've seen guys that actually toss them in the dryer but I can't bring myself to do it.

NO, you cannot use them if they are damp at all.

The key is a dry pad that is primed *only* with the material you plan on using in it. Then of course do not overwork (by overheating) or overload (by over saturating) the pad. It's surprising how little of an area can actually be covered during each stage before the heat in the pad builds to the point where you need to swap it out. (Although that doesn't necessarily mean it's time to clean it completely, if you have a way to cool it while working with the 2nd pad.)

Funny thing having enough pads on hand. My wife had a fit when I first started using a machine years ago. I'd buy as few pads as I could get away with and wonder why my work didn't really get any better (didn't get any worse either but ya' know what I mean). Basically the machine was just a wax removal tool, not a paint correction tool. Now having a better machine she's 'seen the light' literally with the improved depth and reflection and understands how good of a job can be done when I have what I need to actually GET the job done.

The downside is purchasing all those pads the first time around, but the upside is once it's done you never look back. :D

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Re-paint? Ahhh, you're dealing with very soft paint. What you're seeing is marring. It may be very diffucult to get a perfect finish, mainly, because the towels will marr the paint when wiping off the polish.

[ski2]

go rinse out all those pads and pat them down between some big ol' soft towels

Glad to hear someone else mention drying pads with a big soft towel. I take a big soft terry bath towel, fold it a couple times, lay the pads Velcro side up on half of the towel on the floor, fold the other half over the pads and step on each pad. No twisting or turning of the pad to weeken the Velcro. They seem dry enough to use, but I always let them dry on a rack over night.

Dryer on "Air" setting with the sweater rack is an intriguing idea.

[CM8 6MT]

Glad to hear someone else mention drying pads with a big soft towel. I take a big soft terry bath towel, fold it a couple times, lay the pads Velcro side up on half of the towel on the floor, fold the other half over the pads and step on each pad. No twisting or turning of the pad to weeken the Velcro. They seem dry enough to use, but I always let them dry on a rack over night.

Very interesting, I do the exact same thing except I use an Absorber.

[Bill220]

I've been reviewing this thread for the past few days and it seems evident to me that there are a variety of things that I did wrong.

1. assumed that my super bright lights in my garage would show any swirls or flaws.
2. used the wrong product to start with
3. bought cheap MF towels and paid the price for being cheap
4. I'm moving too quickly and rushing to get done
5. didn't prime my pads and assumed that pad conditioner took the place of priming
6. need to clean and/or swap pads more often

I copied & pasted a bunch of the suggestions made here, printed it and will refer to it when I'm in the garage. Got my black pads and high quality MF towels yesterday but the Brinkman hasn't arrived. Once it gets here, I'll polish the trunk lid again and post up some progress pictures.

[DaC]

I've been reviewing this thread for the past few days and it seems evident to me that there are a variety of things that I did wrong.

1. assumed that my super bright lights in my garage would show any swirls or flaws.
2. used the wrong product to start with
3. bought cheap MF towels and paid the price for being cheap
4. I'm moving too quickly and rushing to get done
5. didn't prime my pads and assumed that pad conditioner took the place of priming
6. need to clean and/or swap pads more often

I copied & pasted a bunch of the suggestions made here, printed it and will refer to it when I'm in the garage. Got my black pads and high quality MF towels yesterday but the Brinkman hasn't arrived. Once it gets here, I'll polish the trunk lid again and post up some progress pictures.

Sweet move! You won't regret specially the quality MF Towels and the Brinkmann lights.... Before I had one I relied on my camera flash to check my work (which works very well BTW), but the Brinkmann makes it well easier and faster.... well worth it.


Don't forget to keep us updated on the outcome.

[freddie46]

From your description of the steps you took, I didn't see a step for paint clay. If this step was skipped you could be grinding surface contaminants into the paint. I suggest you start over with a wash, then paint clay step with a good lubricant, then tape off a test area where you can try various pads, polishes and waxes until you find the right combination that will eliminate the swirls. That way you aren't having to do the whole car over multiple times and reduce the risk of damaging your clear coat. Always use the least aggressive combination of pads and polishes/compounds to get the job done. Finally as someone has already suggested, invest in high quality micro fiber for drying, and removing polish and wax. Try Griot's Garage to select the towels. They have a clear description of which towels to use with each step. Their products are outstanding the only products I use.