Newbie who just made a lot of work for himself :(

[Sconnelly]

Dear all @ Autogeek,

I am in a pickle and seek your advice.

I recently just bought a 2013 Black Lexus IS250 and having had Silver cars all my life and loved keeping them clean I knew i'd have more work cut out with a black car. I have a garage and also keep it protected at work from the elements BUT I also know that the car washes (my complex does not allow car washing on site) will cause some unsightly swirls. So on my xmas list to my gf was a Porter Cable XP kit from Autogeek.net, the Meguiars Porter Cable XP Ultra Polish Kit with 5.5 Inch Pads package, then add some Wolfgang Deep Gloss to finish - but she ended up being late so shopped locally at Auto Detailing Products

They only sell PRO products, so while I was happy with the Porter Cable XP, I was left with no product. I was sure there are more than one way to skin a cat and given these guys have been in business in San diego for a long time I thought they and PRO products must be legit. So I write this article with a red face knowing it is most likely mostly bad technique, and a minor part incomplete advice and product combination that caused my less than optimal results :(

I told them I had a new car with really only minor paint defects like cobwebs and a little swirling likely form the dealers washed/dried with towels carelessly. So they suggested PRO's Troubleshooter (PRO Car Beauty Products: P-33 TROUBLESHOOTER®) with yellow 50ppi cutting pad (SM ARNOLD 6 INCH DA FOAM PADS) followed by Cherry finishing wax (PRO Car Beauty Products: P-36 CHERRY FINISHING WAX).

Here is what I did:
1.) Wash and dried car.
2.) Inspected paintwork and made mental not of any more obvious or more serious paint defects. Mostly some minor swirling and cobwebs. A few minor scratches from people brushing past in parking lots.
3.) So I used a PC XP and Yellow 50ppi cutting pad @ speed 5 with "Trouble Shooter" - Took 2hrs for the entire car. I just went form panel to panel without checking my work (I just trusted it was good).
4.) I then used a microfibre towel to remove the product.
5.) Applied Cherry finishing wax by hand 45 mins
6.) Used a fresh clean microfibre towel to remove wax and buff car down, took 30 mins

So in the light of the shade it looked great, deep black and glossy. However, the next morning in the bright sunshine it was a different story. There appeared to be some hazing on the side panels like as if you could just walk up and buff them out like un buffed wax residue. These hazes marks could not be buffed out! I was getting very worried I had screwed up and damaged the paintwork. One particularly problematic area is the beams running between the windshield and the side windows, not sure what that is called but it looks like it is just hazy with tiny cobweb scratches, it just dulled the finish. I looked on your forums and it appears these are cobwebs? There are no serious swirls or marring as such to the paintwork although the cobwebs close up look bad enough.

I think that as I was losing light and getting tired I just got sloppy did too much, too quick, with too much product and combined with sloppy technique :( all in hindsight reading your forums.

The bonnet, roof and rear trunk panels (i.e., the horizontal panels) all looked great so I am thinking given these are the easier panels I was applying enough pressure for enough time and moving slowly enough? as the vertical panels are the ones I found hardest to do these are the ones with the issues so hence the reason I feel technique is the main reason for this issue. I wa slazy and instead of taking a seat and taking my time I just ran the polisher over it by leaning down. I honestly thought that it could do no harm.

So before I beg for yout wise words I have a few questions before I do this again likely in 1-2 months time

1.) Do I need to use a paint cleaner or product before I redoe the car again? or can I just wait two months and a few washes to naturally clean this off?
2.) When I do this again should I use the yellow pad again, followed by the black polishing pad on the problem areas and just the polishing pad on the areas that are looking good?
3.) To remove the cobwebs do I use the Yellow pad, followed by Black pad with the Troubleshooter or is there something better? this was sold a very mild polishing and finishing product and my paint is/was in excellent condition feeling like glass.
4.) Are the product I am using appropriate?
5.) Its a Black car so Wax v Sealant. I love the wet deep black glossy look.

So dont hold back, lay into me and I's appreciate all the critique and advice you have.

Best,

Steve

[TimmyG]

Post some pictures up so we have a better idea of the vehicles current condition.

[cartman57]

^ I agree, pics would help.
If you decide to try again, start with a small area with it well lit up so you're able to see the results.
More pro's will try to help you remedy the situation.
Good luck and post some pics.
Black is a full time job...........

[Sconnelly]

I dont have any pictures, a day after it was polished it rained here and now its filthy.

The cobwebs are very fine and hard to see unless in direct sunlight.

I am going to see if I can hose it down and dry it up IF the rain stops here.

Thanks

[Wheelzntoys]

Don't forget claying (or nano speedy type towel) before compound/polish.

[IID]

1.) Do I need to use a paint cleaner or product before I redoe the car again? or can I just wait two months and a few washes to naturally clean this off?
Start with a finishing polish and a white pad (least aggressive approach first) or with your current black pad and see if that removes the "cobwebs".This will also remove the wax at the same time.
2.) When I do this again should I use the yellow pad again, followed by the black polishing pad on the problem areas and just the polishing pad on the areas that are looking good?
Generally a Yellow pad is a compounding pad and is aggressive in it self.Meening it will also cause "Cobwebs".You need to use a polishing/finishing pad afterwards usually when using such an aggressive pad.
3.) To remove the cobwebs do I use the Yellow pad, followed by Black pad with the Troubleshooter or is there something better? this was sold a very mild polishing and finishing product and my paint is/was in excellent condition feeling like glass.
See above
4.) Are the product I am using appropriate?
Not familiar with them line of products but do a test section first with my recommendations and inspect your work in progress before moving to your next section of correction
5.) Its a Black car so Wax v Sealant. I love the wet deep black glossy look.
Wax=Warm/Wet appearance,Sealant=Glossy appearance....Generally speaking

So dont hold back, lay into me and I's appreciate all the critique and advice you have.

Best,

Steve

Please see above.And remember to clean your pads often because of the wax that may build up in between sections.

[Mike Phillips]

Here is what I did:

3.) So I used a PC XP and Yellow 50ppi cutting pad @ speed 5 with "Trouble Shooter" - Took 2hrs for the entire car. I just went form panel to panel without checking my work


So in the light of the shade it looked great, deep black and glossy. However, the next morning in the bright sunshine it was a different story. There appeared to be some hazing on the side panels like as if you could just walk up and buff them out like un buffed wax residue.

These hazes marks could not be buffed out!


The bonnet, roof and rear trunk panels (i.e., the horizontal panels) all looked great so I am thinking given these are the easier panels I was applying enough pressure for enough time and moving slowly enough? as the vertical panels are the ones I found hardest to do these are the ones with the issues so hence the reason I feel technique is the main reason for this issue.





Here's the skinny...

When it comes to working on modern clear coat paints you need to use products with good abrasive technology.

Using good or GREAT technique is also vitally important but it starts with good abrasive technology because if the abrasive technology isn't good then all the good technique in the world won't make up for it.


I am familiar with Pro products by name as I they were pretty commonly used in the detail shops I called on in Oregon, Washington and Idaho.

They have been around a long time and have a good reputation.


Assuming the abrasive technology used in the Trouble Shooter is good then it could be your technique.

Trouble shooting with a tape-line

What you want to do is trouble shoot the Trouble Shooter and you can do this with a tape-line. You want to place a tape line on an affected panel and then just buff on one side of the tape-line. You're either going to fix the problem, (see improvement), stay the same, (this means either technique or product is wrong, or make it worse.

Get a clean, fresh polishing pad, don't pay attention to the entire PPI topic, look at foam pads this way,


Cutting
Polishing
Finishing or Waxing

Get a "polishing" pad. A very good, universal polishing pad for the PC "style" of DA Polishers is the 5.5" Lake Country 7/8" thin foam pads. Get some of these pads for the future or something similar to do your testing.

Then shake the Trouble Shooter product up very well, prime your clean dry pad and then make 6-8 section passes on one side of the tape line. Wipe the residue off and inspect the results.



Tape Line
It helps to place a piece of painter's tape on a horizontal surface, usually the hood or trunk lid but if you want to be more discreet you can use the roof. Then only work on one side of the tape line as this will make it very easy for you to see visual changes due to the distinct demarcation line between before and after results.


Tape-line using 3M Green Painter's Tape
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/TapeLine02.jpg


Before and after results along the demarcation line
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1422/FlexVideo005.jpg



Check out these threads too...


Video: Mark your backing plate to make it easy to see pad rotation (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/49489-video-mark-your-backing-plate-make-easy-see-pad-rotation.html)

How to prime a foam pad when using a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/35292-how-prime-foam-pad-when-using-da-polisher.html)

Wet Buffing Technique (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/36237-wet-buffing-technique.html)

Video: How-To do a "Section Pass" when Machine Polishing with a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-videos/24074-video-how-do-section-pass-when-machine-buffing.html)


Read all of the above and watch the videos and the read this to make sure you're not making any of the common technique mistakes.

DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/37769-da-polisher-trouble-shooting-guide.html)



Then swing into action and do some troubleshooting testing...


:)

[Mike Phillips]

I dont have any pictures, a day after it was polished it rained here and now its filthy.

The cobwebs are very fine and hard to see unless in direct sunlight.

I am going to see if I can hose it down and dry it up IF the rain stops here.

Thanks


The below are from my article here,


The difference between Rotary Buffer Swirls, Cobweb Swirls, Micro-Marring, DA Haze & Tick Marks (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/28443-difference-between-rotary-buffer-swirls-cobweb-swirls-micro-marring-da-haze-tick-marks.html)




Cobweb Swirls
Also called: Spiderweb Swirls

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/bmwcobwebswirls.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/decklid_swirls.jpg





This is micro-marring from a DA Polisher



Micro-Marring - Tick-Marks - DA-Haze

These three terms are pretty much the accepted terms for a scratch pattern left in some paints from the oscillating and rotating action from a compound or polish and a buffing pad when applied using a DA Polisher.

Unlike Cobweb swirls or Rotary Buffer Swirls, the scratch pattern instilled by a dual action polisher is made up of millions of tiny scratches, some are curved or circular but some are straight, like a small tick mark you would make with a pencil if you were keeping track of a count of some type.

Tick Marks are a sign that either the paint is on the soft side, so easily scratched or the pad and compound or polish you're using are too aggressive to finish out without leaving a mark.

In most cases Tick Marks can be removed by re-polishing with a different pad and product combination.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/MicromarringTickMarks01.jpg



Which style of marks do you see in your car's paint?


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Also...

When learning to use a machine polisher, I recommend not learning on a black Viper, the idea being to not learn on something that is very important to you.

Do you have a second car that's not brand new that you can do some practicing on?



:)

[Mike Phillips]

Also, consider watching these video, the first one goes over tons of tips and techniques for using a DA Polisher all the way from start to finsih...


Video: How to remove shallow RIDS and how to machine apply both a paint sealant and a finishing wax (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/48365-video-how-remove-shallow-rids-how-machine-apply-both-paint-sealant-finishing-wax.html)




http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1241/PorterCable7424XP2.jpg


In this video, you'll see how to inspect and remove RIDS or Random Isolated Deeper Scratches using 4" Spot Repair Pads on a Porter Cable 7424XP DA Polisher.



How to remove shallow RIDS and how to machine
apply both a paint sealant and a finishing wax

How to remove shallow RIDS and how to machine...



This how-to video also covers,



RIDS - Random Isolated Deeper Scratches
Removing watches and any jewelery
Using a DA Polisher without the handle
Placing cord over shoulder
Priming the pad on a DA Polisher
Speed settings for removing isolated defects
Downward pressure needed for removing isolated defects
How to clean a pad on the fly
Where and why to mark your backing plate with a black mark
Rotating the body of the tool to keep the pad flat to a panel
Why to allow the pad to stop spinning before lifting the pad off the paint
How to swap backing plates from a 3.5" to a 5"
Machine waxing using 5.5" Hydro-Tech Crimson Finishing pads with Menzerna Power Lock
The "Kissing the Finish" Technique
How to do the Swipe Test to check if a wax or paint sealant is dry
How to remove dried paint sealant using a microfiber bonnet on a dry pad on a DA Polisher
How to clean a microfiber bonnet on the fly with your fingernails
How to apply a paste wax by machine - Souveran Paste Wax
How to carefully wipe a WOWO wax off by hand using Microfiber Gloves and plush Microfiber Towels
How and why to fold a microfiber towel 4-ways to wipe wax off
How to break-open a coat of wax and then creep out to carefully wipe off a coating of wax
How to do the "Final Wipe"

Screenshots
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/847/RIDSvideo01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/847/RIDSvideo02.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/847/RIDSvideo03.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/847/RIDSvideo04.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/847/RIDSvideo05.jpg



On Autogeek.net

Porter Cable 7424XP Dual Action Polisher (http://www.autogeek.net/porter-cable-7424xp.html)
Pinnacle Advanced Finishing Polish
Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover (http://www.pinnaclewax.com/pin220.html)
Lake Country 5.5" Hydro-Tech Pads (http://www.autogeek.net/hydrotech-low-profile-pads.html)
Pinnacle Souveran Paste Wax (http://www.pinnaclewax.com/souveran.html)
4" CCS Spot Repair Pads (http://www.autogeek.net/4inch-spot-buffs.html)
Indigo Microfiber Bonnets (http://www.autogeek.net/cobra-indigo-bonnets-2.html)
Microfiber Gloves (http://www.autogeek.net/micglovinbul.html)
Brinkmann Swirl Finder Light (http://www.pinnaclewax.com/brinkmann-light-special.html)
Menzerna Power Lock (http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-power-lock-sealant.html)
4" Hydro-Tech Pads (http://www.autogeek.net/hydro-tech-4inch-pads.html)
3" Hydro-Tech Pads (http://www.autogeek.net/lake-country-hydro-tech-3-x-1-25-inch-foam-pads.html)





This one goes over lots of tips and techniques also...


Video: How to buff tight areas plus concave and convex curved panels by machine (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/48368-video-how-buff-tight-areas-plus-concave-convex-curved-panels-machine.html)



How to buff out concave and convex curved panels by machine

How to buff out concave and convex curved panels...




This one is short but goes over all the steps very quickly.
(TV shows are only 20 minutes long so you have to do everything very quicklyl)





Removing Swirls and Oxidation By Machine

How To Remove Oxidation by Machine Polishing with...














:)

[Mike Phillips]

This write-up here actually shows doing a Test Spot to trashed black paint with lots of pictures...

1959 Chevrolet El Camino - Extreme Makeover - Modeled by Christina (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-autogeek-s-car-week/44228-1959-chevrolet-el-camino-extreme-makeover-modeled-christina.html)


Before and after...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1339/1959ElCamino055.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1339/1959ElCamino008.jpg



http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1339/1959ElCamino088.jpg



:)

[Sconnelly]

I originally saw a few cobweb swirls in the paintwork from the dealership and their careless washing.

Now after polishing in the problem areas it looks to be the Micro-Marring - Tick-Marks - DA-Haze you speak of.

However, the hazing I see on the side panels is more chemical in nature as it really does look like product not removed or washed off etc.

No doubt around the car you can see this micro marring in areas I took the DA to with Yellow Pad and Troubleshooter without checking and finishing this off with a polishing pad.

I assume I should go back over this next time with a light cutting pad, followed by a polishing/finishing pad with some light polishing compound and CHECK CHECK CHECK my work at each stage.

[Mike Phillips]

However, the hazing I see on the side panels is more chemical in nature as it really does look like product not removed or washed off etc.





Take and apply a nice wax to an affected area and then immediately wipe it off and see if the haze goes away.

Basically you would be using the wax to re-liquefy any residues left on the surface and then wiping everything off all at once.


Make sense?


:xyxthumbs:

[cgreen1120]

Don't forget to do an IPA wipe down before sealing or waxing. This will eliminate the chemical hazing you are speaking of.

[Sconnelly]

I tried the applying of wax and rubbing this in, letting it dry then trying to remove it. Made very very little difference. I was thinking maybe I did not let the polish 'break down' correctly before moving on?

I did not wipe with IPA after the polish step. I will make up a spray bottle to do this.

Are there any suggestions for a great polish/finishing polish to use to bring this out?

Thanks.