First time using a RO buffer, need some help

[DaC]

Well, yesterday was the very first time I've put my hands on a RO buffer over a car paint.... now I'm coming from a DA and this was a totally different experience and I need some help to get it right.

- Arm speed: I do understand it's faster than with a DA, how many inches per second is acceptable ?

- Pads grabbing on the paint: Well, I tried to use a 6.5" blue finessing pad with some PO85RD and the thing seems to be grabbing on the paint, what I'm doing wrong here ?

- Movement control: Now this one is cool, the damn machine likes to walk wherever it wants... lol.... coming from a DA polisher that is a very obedient machine, it was overly strange and hard to get.... how do you guys overcome that ? IT seems the machine would only steer in one direction... going right.... pushing it up and down or even to the left was very difficult.... maybe it was because the pad was grabbing, maybe not ?

- Section Size: The same 2x2 or 3x3 section size applies to RO buffers or can I use a bigger one ?

- Product spent: The RO seemed to need a lot more product than a DA, is that right ?

- M105 drying too quickly: Well, I know the baby oil trick, but m105 was flashing just too quickly when doing a correction spot with a 3" cyan pad. something between 5 to 10 seconds before everything turns to dust was all I could get..... what's wrong here ? I know m105 don't have a nice work time, but 5 to 10 seconds is ridiculous. Maybe I was using too little product ? A drop after the 3" pad being primed and I was buffing very small areas, just scratch correction...

I'll appreciate any input. :dblthumb2:

[Mike Phillips]

Which Random Orbital are you using?


:dunno:

[DaC]

Which Random Orbital are you using?


:dunno:

Hey Mike, thanks for joining in.

The RO ia a bumblebee 849x :dblthumb2:

I first tried to run it on 600 rpm to get the filling, than upped speeds up to 1400 when working with the 6.5" pad.... on the 3" pad I was a little more audacious and got to 1800.... but the 3" pad didn't represented any challenge on controlling it... only the 6.5" one was hurting me....
I tried your advice, keeping the RO close to my body and trying to relax my arms.... but still, it was moving to wherever it wanted...

And DA I've used a Griot's for some time and now I'm with the G110v2

[FUNX650]

Which Random Orbital are you using?


:dunno:
Also...

While there may be some real technical differences between the terms

Random Orbital Polisher
Dual Action Polisher

When it comes to these three tools it's really just semantics because they all use a Free Rotating Spindle Assemble to move the pad.




- Movement control: Now this one is cool, the damn machine likes to walk wherever it wants...

Whenever I hear of this walking phenomenon...
I think Flex 3401...Or a rotary of some kind.

:)

Bob

[DaC]

Sorry for the confusion guys... I was abbreviating Rotary by RO, not meant to mean a DA.... "=]

[Mike Phillips]

Sorry for the confusion guys... I was abbreviating Rotary by RO, not meant to mean a DA.... "=]


Ha ha... no problem, I usually use RB for Rotary Buffer...


:)

[FUNX650]

Sorry for the confusion guys... I was abbreviating Rotary by RO, not meant to mean a DA.... "=]

Completely understood! :props:

Now...
You have to grab this "Rotary-Tiger" by the tail; hold on; and show it who's Boss.

:D

Bob

[DaC]

Ha ha... no problem, I usually use RB for Rotary Buffer...


:)

Makes sense! :dblthumb2:



Completely understood!

Now...
You have to grab this "Rotary-Tiger" by the tail; hold on; and show it who's Boss.



Bob


LoL! That's a funny way to put it

[Flash Gordon]

This probally won't make sense, but stop trying to make the machine do what you want it to do........ All your suppose to do is guide the machine in the direction you are wanting to go................not trying to brag, but I can run a rotary polisher using only my fingertips ! .......I think in time you will clearly see the rotary is a lot friendly machine to operate then the da.......IMO :buffing:

[DaC]

This probally won't make sense, but stop trying to make the machine do what you want it to do........ All your suppose to do is guide the machine in the direction you are wanting to go................not trying to brag, but I can run a rotary polisher using only my fingertips ! .......I think in time you will clearly see the rotary is a lot friendly machine to operate then the da.......IMO :buffing:
You're sure bragging.... Just kidding Flash!

So, how do I do that ? How to tell this type of machine to where I want to go ?

And also, what's up with the pad grabbing thing ?

[Flash Gordon]

(a)You're sure bragging.... Just kidding Flash!

(b)So, how do I do that ? How to tell this type of machine to where I want to go ?

(c) And also, what's up with the pad grabbing thing ?


(a) Im the MAN j/k.......it's really no big deal


(b) You use your eyes


(c) Apply more pressure and see what happens


Is this a chalky white paitjob your working on?

[DaC]

(a) Im the MAN j/k.......it's really no big deal


(b) You use your eyes


(c) Apply more pressure and see what happens


Is this a chalky white paitjob your working on?

Yepz, I was a little afraid of applying pressure.... but the idea was to jewel, I shouldn't use extra pressure, right ?

And

Nops... black clear coated....

So far I was able to get it this way on the test spot after IPA... from D300 + MF cutting Disc on a G110v2 / SF4500 + Blue Pad on the 849x
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/IMG_2310.JPG (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/53011)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/IMG_23151.JPG (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/53012)

This is my 2nd time with this car, the first on was last year, when I was just starting with DA polishers, here it is:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/42581-vw-polo-s-swirl-monster-ate-my-pads-pics-heavy.html

[Flash Gordon]

I don't think your at the jeweling process yet. When you get there the surface should be super slick, thus making the polisher even easier to manevure

It's been my expierence that VW has some very tough clearcoat. Don't be afraid to apply pressure or you'll never get anywhere

Is pic 2 an after shot?

[DaC]

I don't think your at the jeweling process yet. When you get there the surface should be super slick, thus making the polisher even easier to manevure

It's been my expierence that VW has some very tough clearcoat. Don't be afraid to apply pressure or you'll never get anywhere

Is pic 2 an after shot?

How come I shouldn't be after using nanoskin autoscrub / d300 / ipa / po85rd ?

I live in Brazil, our VW clears are soft... in fact most if not all from ours factory clears are soft.... at least all the ones I've worked on are..... I wish they were hard... I could correct very close to this level using only m205 + tangerine pad on this clear... I just wanted to destroy everything the best I could... that's why I used D300 on a MF disc.

My guess it that I was trying to tackle a too large section, thus leaving very little polishing liquid to lubricate the surface... 1/3 of the hood actually...

Yepz.... the first one was after decontamination with the autoscrub pad and the second on is after d300 on the cutting mf disc and sf4500 on the blue pad using the rotary and 15% IPA to inspect results... this was my section test.
I was quite impressed by that second picture actually... because I have come close to it using a DA polisher, a black pad and sf4500...... but the rotary got it much better finished from this first try, even though I had some issues controlling it....

[Mike Phillips]

I have a couple of articles on using the rotary buffer and a number of videos, here's one I stumbled over while answering a question in another thread.

More pictures in the actual thread...

How to use a Rotary Buffer (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/56160-how-use-rotary-buffer.html)


Here's the demo vehicle I used to teach my recent class on how to use a rotary buffer, it's a 1966 Corvette Sting Ray that's filled with millions of swirls and scratches. How you see the paint on the car depends on ho you inspect it.


A swirled-out old 2-door Chevy...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1557/SeptBootCampClass001.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1557/SeptBootCampClass002.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1557/SeptBootCampClass003.jpg



Inspecting the true condition of the paint
In the pictures above the paint looks very good but below is how it actually looked...

This is called, "The Sun Shot", it's when you move the car into full overhead sun and position the reflection of the sun onto the horizontal panels where it will reveal swirls, scratches and water spots.



The Sun Shot
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1557/2012SeptBC008.jpg



Paint Condition
According to the chapter on paint condition categories (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/51281-page-37-paint-condition-categories.html) in my how-to book, The Art of Detailing (http://www.autogeek.net/art-of-detailing-paperback-book.html) this paint fall into category #5 & #6 because it has both sever cobweb swirls and holograms.


5: Severely Neglected
Paint in this condition has deep swirls, scratches, water spots and oxidation. Paint in this condition has normal day-in, day-out wear-n-tear plus no real regular maintenance. Vehicles in this category are rarely washed on a regular basis and when they are washed they are washed improperly or taken through automatic car wash.

Cobweb Swirls and Scratches
Paint that is severely neglected means that when viewed in bright, overhead sunlight, there are so many swirls and scratches that the paint has an overall hazy appearance which blocks your view of the true color.


Water Spots
Paint that is in the severely neglected category can have Type I, Type II and Type III water spots on all horizontal panels and even the vertical panels if caused by a sprinkler or some type of water spray.


Severe Oxidation
Paint in this category has oxidized to the point where the surface has a uniform dull appearance to the horizontal surfaces and to some extent the vertical panels. Clear coats do oxidize but usually slower than single stage paints and don't normally get the whitish, chalky appearance with a rough texture common to old, neglected single stage lacquers and enamels.
6: Horrendous Swirls - Caused by the misuse of a rotary buffer
This category is primarily for cars that have been improperly buffed-out using a rotary buffer leaving the finish inflicted with rotary buffer swirls, holograms or buffer trails.
(Whatever term you like, they all mean the same thing).


The severity of the swirls can range from shallow to deep depending upon the pad and product used with the rotary buffer as well as technique or lack thereof.

The normal three culprits for paint in this condition are,
Dealer Installed Swirl Option
Bodyshop Installed Swirl Option
Detailer Installed Swirl Option
Sad but true, the people in this industry that are supposed to know how to properly buff out a car normally either don't know or don't care. The results are the same and that's a swirled out car finish that someone else will have to undo.



Brinkmann Swirl Finder Light
Here's what the paint looks like when lit up with the Brinkmann Swirl Finder Light (http://www.autogeek.net/brinkmann-swirl-finder-light.html)...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1570/1966CorvetteSwirls.jpg



Doing a Test Spot Using a Rotary Buffer
A couple of days before the class I did a Test Spot for a number of reasons,
1. To ensure the paint could be restored.

2. To dial in a process that would undo the damage and restore a swirl-free, show car finish.

3. Get a feel for the paint itself, that is how soft or hard it is and how easy or difficult it would be to correct.
The Major Correction or Cutting Step
Because every inch of ever body panel was filled with swirls and the goal is to remove as many of the defects as possible I chose to start out with an aggressive compound and a wool pad.

M105 with a W5000 Wool Pad on the DeWALT 849X
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/SeptBootCampClass006.jpg



The Minor Correction or Polishing Step
After the cutting step the next thing to do is restore and maximize gloss and clarity by removing any holograms and haze left by the aggressive fibers that make up a wool cutting pad and the cutting action of the abrasives in the compound. Because M105 uses Super Microscopic Abrasive Technology, the majority of any holograms are not from the abrasives but from the individual fibers that make up a wool cutting pad and the downward rotating pressure applied to cut the paint.

Thus the swirls should be very shallow and easily removed with the companion or twin product to the M105 and that's the M205 Ultra Polish. For this I switched over to a foam polishing pad.

M205 with a 7" Softbuff Polishing Pad
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/SeptBootCampClass007.jpg



Jeweling with a Rotary Buffer
After removing the holograms and polishing to a high gloss the paint looked flawless and ready to wax but instead I chose to squeeze a little more gloss and shine out of the paint by jewelling it with the same polish but I switched to a much softer foam finishing pad. For this I turned my polisher down to 600 RPM's and slowly moved the rotary buffer over the paint.

M205 with a 7" Softbuff Finishing Pad
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/SeptBootCampClass008.jpg


Using the Brinkmann to inspect the results...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/SeptBootCampClass009.jpg


Inspection Results
Here are the results after doing the above three steps using the Brinkmann Swirl Finder Light and then overhead florescent lights.

Before
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/SeptBootCampClass010.jpg


After
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/SeptBootCampClass011.jpg


Overhead Florescent Lights
Here I've stood back and taken a picture from an angle lower, and flatter to the hood of the car with the overhead florescent lights placed over the tape-line.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/SeptBootCampClass012.jpg


Close-up
The below picture is the same exact picture above except I've cropped out the specific area to show before and after results.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/SeptBootCampClass013.jpg


Here's some of the tools I used for this test spot...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/SeptBootCampClass000.jpg



Conclusion
I performed the above test spot to answer 3 questions.



1. Can the paint be restored?

The answer to this question is a resounding "yes"
The paint was in severely neglected condition and the age of this paint job is not known but from my testing I proved the paint could be successfully restored. There are some paints that are past the point of no return and nothing you pour out of a bottle or scoop out of a can will fix them. That is not the case with the paint on this Corvette.


2. Can a process be dialed-in to restore a swirl-free, show car finish.

The answer to this question is "yes"
The Meguiar's Twins M105 and M205 provided all the cut we needed to remove the defects and using to polishing steps restore the car to a swirl-free, show car finish.


3. Determine if the paint is on the soft side or the had side?


The answer to this was somewhere in the middle of soft and hard. Actually, it's in the sweet spot which not to had and not to soft and that's exactly where you want your car's paint to be.


Next up it's hands-on training time...


:xyxthumbs: