Time to step up my game.

[cgreen1120]

As BobbyG (G is for genius) would say, it is time to step up my game. I am currently working on a black 2001 BMW 325i. Over the years the car has been repaired several times. The only place I can find that has not been touched up in the trunk lid. The repairs aren’t terrible with the exception of the whole driver’s side. That being said, I decided to wet sand it in an effort to remove the orange peel. They had obviously left plenty of clear to work with. I did test spots and removed as little as needed.
The machine I am using to compound is a GG 6” DA. with Meg 105. This is killing me. I don’t have the experience to jump straight to a rotary so I was thinking of stepping up to a Flex 3401. So that is my quandary. Will this help me out? The results have been great so far but very time consuming. The grits I am using is 2000, 2500 and 3000.
CraigFeed back please

[Flash Gordon]

As BobbyG (G is for genius) would say, it is time to step up my game. I am currently working on a black 2001 BMW 325i. Over the years the car has been repaired several times. The only place I can find that has not been touched up in the trunk lid. The repairs aren’t terrible with the exception of the whole driver’s side. That being said, I decided to wet sand it in an effort to remove the orange peel. They had obviously left plenty of clear to work with. I did test spots and removed as little as needed.
The machine I am using to compound is a GG 6” DA. with Meg 105. This is killing me. I don’t have the experience to jump straight to a rotary so I was thinking of stepping up to a Flex 3401. So that is my quandary. Will this help me out? The results have been great so far but very time consuming. The grits I am using is 2000, 2500 and 3000.
CraigFeed back please

My Griots DA won't remove 3000 grit marks. If I were you I would get a rotary. They really aren't as dangerous as you percieve them to be

[Mike Phillips]

That being said, I decided to wet sand it in an effort to remove the orange peel.

The machine I am using to compound is a GG 6” DA. with Meg 105. This is killing me.

I don’t have the experience to jump straight to a rotary so I was thinking of stepping up to a Flex 3401.




Either get a rotary of finish out with 3M #5000



See this thread...


Video: Wow! 3M #5000 Grit Polishing I mean Sanding Discs! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/50222-video-wow-3m-5000-grit-polishing-i-mean-sanding-discs.html)


Did some comparison testing between,


#1500 Grit Sanding Discs - Meguiar's
#1500 Foam Backed Finishing Discs - Meguiar's
#3000 Foam Backed Finishing Discs - Meguiar's
#5000 Foam Backed Finishing Discs - 3M
I'll let the pictures do the talking...

From left to right...

#1500 Grit Sanding Disc, #1500 Foam Backed Finishing Disc, #3000 Foam Backed Finishing Disc and #5000 Foam Backed Finishing Disc

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/50003M000.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/50003M005.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/50003M001.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/50003M002.jpg


At the #5000 mark you're really starting to restore reflectivity to the paint...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/50003M003.jpg





#3000 & #5000 Grit Wetsanding Marks Removed
with a DA Polisher


#5000 Grit Wetsanding Marks..." target="_blank">#5000 Grit Wetsanding Marks...





:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

The new M101 Foam-Cut Compound with a DA Polisher should obliterate #3000 and for sure #5000 using only a DA Polisher....

The swirls in this 1999 Trans Am were really bad and M105 didn't even whince...


M101 Foam Cut Compound - 1999 Trans Am Extreme Makeover at Autogeek (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-autogeek-s-car-week/57274-m101-foam-cut-compound-1999-trans-am-extreme-makeover-autogeek.html)


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1619/1999_Trans_Am_M101_Finished_038.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1619/1999_Trans_Am_M101_Finished_039.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1619/1999_Trans_Am_M101_Finished_005.jpg



:)

[Mike Phillips]

If you want a good rotary buffer, check out the Flex PE14 or the DeWALT 849X

See my review of the DeWALT here,

DeWALT DWP849X vs Makita 9227C Rotary Buffers (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/circular-polishers-rotary-polishers-high-speed-polisher/50661-dewalt-dwp849x-vs-makita-9227c-rotary-buffers.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/797/DeWALTvsMakita017.jpg


On Autogeek.net

DeWalt DWP849X 7”/9” Variable Speed Rotary Polisher (http://www.autogeek.net/dewalt-dwp849x-polisher.html)

Makita 9227C Rotary Polisher (http://www.autogeek.net/ma927po.html)




Me working M101 with a DeWALT 849X with a Meguiar's W7207 Foam Cutting Pad...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1619/1999_Trans_Am_M101_Finished_040.jpg



http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1619/1999_Trans_Am_M101_Finished_027.jpg




:)

[Success]

That's a cool video demonstration by mike! Meguiars also has a picture demonstration of removing 3000 grit marks with a DA and their mf system

[cgreen1120]

Mike,
I read a thread recently where you suggested stepping to forced rotation DA before graduating to a rotary and to me that makes sense. I will read the review you suggested but it sounds like I need to pay more attention to my surface prep by finishing out with the 3M 5000. That being said, will the Flex 3401 make my life easer or do I make the jump to rotary? Keep in mind I only have 8 months under my belt.

Craig

[tuscarora dave]

The key with safely buffing out sanding marks with a rotary is to not sand in areas where you are likely to get in trouble with burns or strike throughs etc. In other words, if you can't safely buff in that area (such as an edge of a panel) don't sand in that area. Working in relatively open or flat areas with a rotary buffer is quite safe and a relatively straight forward proposition. Of course you'll need to practice some common sense and not grind away at one area for a long period of time.(keep it moving and it won't burn.)

Another misconception, "I think" a lot of new rotary users experience is fear of the wool pad. The thought process is something like this...

"Oh My!!! A wool pad!! Oh No!! Wool is the most aggressive pad in the world!! It's surely going to burn my paint!! I better use a foam pad instead!!"

Of course I typed that with a silly and somewhat exaggerated tone. But really, I think this is a typical thought process from a lot of inexperienced rotary users while going through a period of fear and anxiety preceding their first rotary experience. (It was for me anyway)

This however is far from the truth in terms of the creation of heat that might burn paint, as a foam pad will create much more heat than what a wool pad will. Yes a wool pad can be very aggressive in terms of how much clear coat material is actually being abraded off of the car, especially when combined with a super duty "rocks in a bottle" type of compound.

It seems to me that a lot of folks who are inexperienced in detailing, "having not done their homework", are pretty quick to grab a hold of a bottle of the cheapest compound available (which often time is rocks in a bottle) and proceed to buff away willy nilly and create a mess of things.

The friction created between a foam pad being spun with a rotary against paint is potentially much greater than that which is created between a wool pad and the paint.

So for removing sanding marks as a newbie with a rotary, using a wool pad would be safer and easier to learn with "as long as you keep in mind one main thing". The wool pad will leave behind it's own swirl marks in the paint, that to an inexperienced rotary user may, or could be mistaken for paint defects that just aren't being removed.

This single mistake in thinking "I believe", gets more new rotary users in trouble than any other factor. They see the swirls left behind by the wool pad and think..."Damn...These swirls will just not buff out of this paint!!! This must be some seriously hard paint!!!" All the while in reality.. the paint defects have been long since removed, and what the inexperienced rotary user is actually seeing is the swirls that the wool pad itself is imparting into the paint.

They keep on buffing away trying to remove the swirls and before they know it they begin to see primer coming through the base coat.

Real world experience in seeing several cars with this situation present has suggested to me that this is a common occurrence among new detailers having not first done their duty in researching how to do things correctly.This is why practicing on a junk panel first is often suggested by experienced rotary users.

Having said all of that....Have you tried removing your sanding marks with a 4 inch pad on your DA?

[Mike Phillips]

Mike,
I read a thread recently where you suggested stepping to forced rotation DA before graduating to a rotary and to me that makes sense.



That's for people detailing cars for money or enthusiast that want a more powerful tool for buffing out their own cars.


When it comes to removing sanding marks out of paint the fastest and most effective way is by using a wool pad on a rotary buffer and here's what I always say about this topic...

In the context of wetsanding an entire car...


"It already takes a long time to buff out all your sanding marks using a rotary buffer, using any other tool will just take longer"


Can you remove sanding marks using a DA Polisher like a PC, Meguiar's, Griot's or Flex 3401?

Heck yeah!

I walked a guy through the entire process from start to finish where he restored a 1965 Mustang, painted, wetsanded it and then removed all the sanding marks using a Meguiar's G110 over on MOL but even he admitted it took a l-o-n-g time.

The guy was retired so he had all the time in the world for the project and it was cool because he did it all for his son who was serving in the military during the Iraq war so when his son returned home the car was finished and an awesome welcome home present.

But still.... even with #3000, #4000 and now #5000 grit sanding discs if I'm the guy that's going to do the sanding and buffing I'm still going to choose a wool pad and a rotary buffer to remove the sanding marks because it already takes a long time, why would I want to do it any slower....

For a weekend warrior, with no time deadlines, you can remove sanding marks using any of the various DA polishers, it will just take more time.





I will read the review you suggested but it sounds like I need to pay more attention to my surface prep by finishing out with the 3M 5000.


Finishing out using the highest grit papers or discs you can obtain will always make the buffing process faster and this is key... cooler.




That being said, will the Flex 3401 make my life easer or do I make the jump to rotary? Keep in mind I only have 8 months under my belt.

Craig


If I were you, I would go for the rotary and a wool pad and either some M105 or M101 and like Dave suggested, get a junk panel from the wrecking yard or from a local body shop and practice.

Even practice heating the paint up on purpose and burning through an edge and a flat surface so you have the experience from doing this and it will help you to know what not to do.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Also, top coat hardness is a HUGE factor.

The harder the paint the more difficult it is to abrade it to remove any type of defects.

The harder the paint, the more effective a rotary buffer will be for removing 100% of the defects.



:)

[cgreen1120]

Well that settles it. Rotary it is. I will start my research tonight after I pick up a junk fender or 3 on my way home. Thanks for all your help guys. The last thing I want to do is make a mistake. I know one thing for sure, A great Detailer can make a bad paint job look great but a bad Detailer can make a great paint job look real bad. The later of the 2 is what I am trying to avoid at all cost.

Craig

[Mike Phillips]

At my last detailing boot camp class I used an old 2-door Chevy to show people how to use a wool pad with a rotary buffer...

How to use a Rotary Buffer (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/56160-how-use-rotary-buffer.html)



First thing a person needs to learn is how to clean their wool pad using a pad cleaning spur
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1570/TrainingVette001.jpg


Perfect!
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1570/TrainingVette002.jpg


Next is learning to pick up an bead of product using the 10 @ 10 Technique...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1570/TrainingVette003.jpg


Then with a little hands-on guidance, how much pressure to apply, how slow to move the polisher over the paint and how much downward pressure to use...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1570/TrainingVette004.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1570/TrainingVette005.jpg


Removing swirls and scratches next to the driver side mirror...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1570/TrainingVette006.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1570/TrainingVette007.jpg


She's doing great!
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1570/TrainingVette008.jpg



When possible, a little hands-on training from someone that's already made mistakes and used this type of tool for years can really flatten out the learning curve...


:)

[Success]

Mike how do you pick up a bead of product from a vertical panel?

[Mike Phillips]

Mike how do you pick up a bead of product from a vertical panel?


Same way you do it on a horizontal panel. Also, watch this video...


Video: Tips for using a Rotary Buffer and the Flex 3401 on vertical panels (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/48334-video-tips-using-rotary-buffer-flex-3401-vertical-panels.html)


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/1pad10at9_001t.jpg


:)

[cgreen1120]

Okay, the job is done. The customer picked up the car last night and was very impressed with the results. I did not use a rotary as I had indicated earlier but that’s because the customer purchased the Flex 3401 for me as payment for the job. (I will not do another cut and buff without a rotary.) Mike is right; it takes a L-O-N-G time even with the Flex. The Flex was far superior all around to the GG 6” but I still used my GG for several steps. The 3” GG was priceless for the damp sanding.

Here are a few items I used.

3 Inch Griot's Garage Random Orbital Polish
FLEX XC3401 VRG Dual Action Polisher
6 Inch Griot's Garage Polisher
3 Inch 3M Hookit P1500 Finishing Film Disk
3 Inch 3M Trizact Hookit P3000 Foam Disk
Lake Country 5.5 CCS Pad (Yellow, Orange, White, Red, Black)
3 Inch Hydro-Tech (Cyan, Tangerine)
Meguiars 105
Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover 3.0
Wolfgang Finishing Glaze 3.0
Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0
Ultima Tire & Trim Guard Plus

I do not have any of the before pics but this is how it turned out.
NO MORE ORANGE PEEL!
14605
14606
14607

Thank you all for your help,

Craig