Modern Single Stage-A question for Mike Phillips [Archive] - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum

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Njohc

08-07-2012, 08:30 AM

Hi
Ill try to keep this as short and to the point as possible.

Car: 1993 Bmw 3 series with a SS Red paint

Im working on it as I type. I stripped it with 3 washes of dawn (all I had available to me) and hoped the rest of the klasse sealant was taken off while I clayed it.

I am now soaking it in Megs 7 as there are select areas that seem to have failed, and fade within days no matter what.
My questions are as follows:
1) Is this "newer" SS paint benefiting as much as the antique SS paint in your Megs 7 article?
2) After the megs 7 soak I want to go over it with the lighest abrasive I can find as well as the lightest pad I can find with my flex polisher in order to remove some swirls, while also taking very little paint with it. After the polish is it a good idea to follow it up with another megs 7 soak topped with megs 26?

My thinking is that the 26 will lock in the oils needed to help those failed areas keep their pigment.
My worry is that the megs 26 wont bond properly with the 7 underneath.

Any clarification would be absolutely amazing. This paint has been a huge problem for me.
Thanks

BillyJack

08-07-2012, 10:44 AM

Subscribed.
I have my own opinions on your questions, but I'd rather wait for the master's response. I will mention that I've never had an issue with any LSP I've tried, either sealant or wax, bonding to a surface soaked with #7 as long as you have removed all the #7 on the surface.

Bill

Mike Phillips

08-07-2012, 11:25 AM

Hi Tyler,

Thank you for taking this to the forum, typing time is so limited that the best leverage of time is to try to keep discussions on the art of detailing on the public forum where myself and everyone else can chime in.

Hi
Ill try to keep this as short and to the point as possible.

Car: 1993 BMW 3 series with a SS Red paint

Im working on it as I type. I stripped it with 3 washes of dawn (all I had available to me) and hoped the rest of the Klasse sealant was taken off while I clayed it.

I am now soaking it in Megs 7 as there are select areas that seem to have failed, and fade within days no matter what.
My questions are as follows:
1) Is this "newer" SS paint benefiting as much as the antique SS paint in your Megs 7 article?

Yes. The reason why is the paint is more porous, thus the reason it dries out and oxidizes and the polishing oils can affect the pigmented resin, that is the polishing oils can be introduced to the pigmented resin. A clear coat could be thought of as of impenetrable layer of plastic covering the pigmented resin so the polishing oils could never reach it.

2) After the megs 7 soak I want to go over it with the lightest abrasive I can find as well as the lightest pad I can find with my flex polisher in order to remove some swirls, while also taking very little paint with it.

After the polish is it a good idea to follow it up with another megs 7 soak topped with megs 26?

Yes.

The initial #7 saturation soak will penetrated and revitalize the dried out paint to whatever level is possible. After you lightly abrade the surface you will expose new and different pores or openings in the paint for the #7 oils to penetrate, so a follow-up application will only further help with no downside.

My thinking is that the 26 will lock in the oils needed to help those failed areas keep their pigment.

Correct. One of the purposes of a wax, paint sealant or coating is to seal over the surface locking any polishing oils into the paint and locking or blocking everything else including water, moisture in the forum of humid air plus anything that would attack the paint. A wax, paint sealant or coating is thus the sacrificial barrier coating, it sacrifices itself when the surface is attached so the paint doesn't have to.

So applying the non-cleaning, finishing wax M26 will seal the surface, not perfectly but to the degree waxes historically always have and this will act to lock in the water soluble polishing oils found in the M26.

My worry is that the megs 26 wont bond properly with the 7 underneath.

Your concern is similar to a lot of peoples concern when it comes to getting wax to stick to paint, I believe this concern originated with the introduction of the Zaino products and the strong following they have on discussion forums plus the manufactures recommendations to chemically strip the paint before applying their paint sealants, which are different than waxes.

I a hardened veteran of the NXT vs Zaino Wax Wars and as such have written on this topic for years now, more years than I wish actually but the benefit to this experience is that I have discussed this with a PhD Chemist, one of the best I have ever known and worked with and also consider a very good friend.

Here's the short answer...

Don't worry about it.

Wipe the #7 off and then apply the M26. Allow the M26 to dry to a haze, in normal temperatures this will be about 20 to 30 minutes depending on how thin or thick the coating is and the humidity. Use the "Swipe Test" to determine if the wax is dry and ready to remove and when ready to remove do so carefully using premium quality microfiber towel.

The long answer is to read my article below but I have included the pertinent portion...

Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/31186-miscible-immiscible-wax-paint-sealant-bonding.html)

I contacted R&D, communicated with one of the Chemists, and then posted a statement provided to me on this topic.

A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application.

This means the addition of any Meguiar's polishes prior to the wax application will not only enhance the paint finish, but also aid in the appearance, adherence and overall lasting ability of the wax which is applied over the top of it.

Plus the timeless comments from my longtime forum buddy Tom aka Mosca

Originally Posted by Mosca
I've never walked out into a garage only to find out that overnight the wax or paint sealant I applied slipped off the car's paint and piled-up on the floor surrounding the car because it didn't bond or stick to the paint.

So do the #7 Saturation Soak and then polish the paint with a Fine Cut Polish or a Ultra Fine Cut Polish and then re-#7 the paint and the seal with the M26.

If all of the above takes, then maintain often, that's the idea behind,

"Find something you like and use it often" (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/24310-find-something-you-like-use-often.html)

If the above doesn't take then your car's paint has become unstable and is now past the point of no return.

The words Unstable and Past the Point of No Return are categories in my how-to book on Paint Condition Categories and you can read about them here,

Page 37 - Paint Condition Categories (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/51281-page-37-paint-condition-categories.html)

Any clarification would be absolutely amazing. This paint has been a huge problem for me.
Thanks

I hope the above helps and thank you again for bringing this to the public forum. I really hope your car's paint can be saved as its never any fun letting someone know their single stage paint is unstable and past the point of no return because at this point you only have two options,

Learn to live with it
New paint job

If you can bring the paint back to a level that's acceptable, that is you are able to restore the richness of color, then you can keep it this way with regular applications of #7 and M26 and avoid any type of detergent washes and never introduce any oil leaching solvents to the paint. Also avoid leaving the car exposed to major sun shine for extended periods of time.

Also take a look at Optimum Car Wax, it has patented UV inhibitors. Use it over the M26, like a day or two after applying the M26, apply the Optimum Car Wax. Be sure the paint is dust free before applying.

And for anyone reading this into the future that is not sure about or ever read my article on restoring original and antique single stage paints you can find my article here,

The Secret to Removing Oxidation and Restoring a Show Car Finish to Antique Single Stage Paints (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/25304-secret-removing-oxidation-restoring-show-car-finish-antique-single-stage-paints.html)

Excerpt...

This is key...
Saturation Application --> The First Application
This is a mostly unknown technique and that is to let the first application penetrate and soak into the paint for up to 24 hours before wiping the product off. The idea being to really apply the product wet and work it in really well and the walk away.

The idea is to allow the heavy concentration of oils to penetrate and seep into the paint for maximum saturation before removing the product and continuing with the process. In this case I finished applying the first application of #7 around 9:00 pm and then left the #7 to soak in until the next day. I started wiping the product off then next morning right about 10:00am.

Some will argue if this works or not but my experience is that with a porous single stage paint it does in fact help. One thing for sure it can't hurt.

Paper Test for Capillary Action
If you place a few drops of #7 onto a piece of paper and then monitor it over a few days you will see the oils in the #7 migrate or seep away from the actual drop of product. It does this through capillary action and the same thing can work to your car's paints' advantage if it's a single stage lacquer or enamel paint.

I placed a few drops about the size of a nickel on a piece of standard printer paper around 3:00pm.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/859/7CapillaryAction01.jpg

The next day I took these pictures at approximately 10:00am, (19 hours later), note how the oils in the drops of #7 have migrated outward via capillary action.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/859/7CapillaryAction02.jpg

Feeder Oils penetrate or feed the paint
This same effect can take place in a single stage paint but not only will the oils travel horizontally, they will also travel vertically, that they will penetrate downward "into" your car's paint and this is where the term feeder oils comes from as the oils penetrate into or feed the paint. The result is they will condition the paint restoring some level of workability as compared to just working on old dry paint, and they will also bring out the full richness of color, something that will showcase the beauty of your car's paint.

As well as on AutoTraderClassic.com

Restoring Single Stage Paint (http://www.autotraderclassics.com/car-article/Restoring+Single+Stage+Paint%3A+Part+1-65310.xhtml?conversationId=352994)

:)

Dr Oldz

08-07-2012, 01:04 PM

Great info here! I have been using #7 for years because I still get a lot of SS paints. It is truly an amazing product and to think the formula hasn't changed in decades truly makes it a legendary product!

Andy6228

08-07-2012, 01:30 PM

so only apply #26 over #7, or will other sealants or waxes work?

Njohc

08-07-2012, 02:11 PM

Couldn't have asked for a better response! Thank you so much for your time! It's sitting under a car cover at the moment until I have the time to finish it up with what you've recommended. My main problem area is on the driver side rear quarter panel. I can actually see where the 7 has absorbed into that oxidized paint. There are blotches of seemingly enriched paint that were surely not there before. This product will definitely be one I keep on hand.

Mike Phillips

08-07-2012, 03:08 PM

so only apply #26 over #7, or will other sealants or waxes work?

When using products all made by the same chemist/manufacture there tends to be a better chance for a,

Synergistic Chemical Compatibility

But in my experience most any other quality car wax works fine. Keep in mind, most "Car Waxes" are in fact hybrids because they contain more than just a single type of waxy substance for protection, durability, gloss, depth, etc.

I think I talk about this topic in this thread,

The Difference Between a Cleaner/Wax and a Finishing Wax (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23263-difference-between-cleaner-wax-finishing-wax.html)
Subtitle: How To Choose The Right Wax or Paint Sealant for your Detailing Project

:)

Mike Phillips

08-07-2012, 03:14 PM

This product will definitely be one I keep on hand.

The product has been around since the "automobile" has been around and thus it's been around as long as early single stage paints have been around.

Has kind of a cult following...

Nothing else really like it on the market except #3 Machine Glaze which is a wetter version of #7 and M80 Speed Glaze except #3 and #7 are non-abrasive and M80 contains diminishing abrasives.

#3 came out first in glass bottles because plastic hadn't been invented yet... the below is also the very rare green label version...

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/medium/M03GreenLabel001.jpg

Then later in the very rare cylinder plastic bottles... most cracked becaue early plastic was brittle anyway and it doesn't get more flexible with time...

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/450_MGM3_001.jpg

:)

BillyJack

08-07-2012, 06:34 PM

Nothing else really like it on the market except #3 Machine Glaze which is a wetter version of #7 and M80 Speed Glaze except #3 and #7 are non-abrasive and M80 contains diminishing abrasives.

Mike,
I truly enjoy every occasion when you post up regarding single-stage paint. There's always some tidbit of knowledge I pick up. When I started using Meguiar's products, M04, M03 and M07 were the staples of my lineup. I went through enough of the round plastic bottles and had enough crack and split in my hand that I started buying the half-gallon jugs.

I'm old, but not old enough for the glass bottles.
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee388/kaminokids/IMG_1423.jpg

One of the alterations I've done when using your SS paint restoration process is interchanging M03 and M80, depending on the needs of a particular area or panel and how thin the paint appears on or near the edges. I didn't know the reason or technology behind it; I just knew it worked for me.
If I read you correct, they're similar products except for the abrasive level.
Maybe that's why the paint on my Camino lasted as long as it did. Years ago, prior to your fine restoration article, I'd machine buff my truck with M03, then do a light hand application of M07, followed by my LSP, sometimes NXT, sometimes M26, sometimes both. Nowhere close to the results achieved by following your entire process, but it kept the paint from falling off my Camino.

Thanks once again for sharing your knowledge.

Bill

PS. BTW, I did my annual Chevy Show thing and managed to score yet one more trophy with the old girl, thanks to you.

Mike Phillips

08-08-2012, 07:34 AM

Mike,
I truly enjoy every occasion when you post up regarding single-stage paint. There's always some tidbit of knowledge I pick up. When I started using Meguiar's products, M04, M03 and M07 were the staples of my lineup.

I went through enough of the round plastic bottles and had enough crack and split in my hand that I started buying the half-gallon jugs.

That's why the cylinder bottles are so rare now... early plastic technology still had a ways to go to hold up in the garage...

I'm old, but not old enough for the glass bottles.
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee388/kaminokids/IMG_1423.jpg

Cool picture!

One of the alterations I've done when using your SS paint restoration process is interchanging M03 and M80, depending on the needs of a particular area or panel and how thin the paint appears on or near the edges. I didn't know the reason or technology behind it; I just knew it worked for me.

If I read you correct, they're similar products except for the abrasive level.

Correct.

M03 and M07 = Non-Abrasive
M80 = Diminishing Abrasives

Maybe that's why the paint on my Camino lasted as long as it did. Years ago, prior to your fine restoration article, I'd machine buff my truck with M03, then do a light hand application of M07, followed by my LSP, sometimes NXT, sometimes M26, sometimes both. Nowhere close to the results achieved by following your entire process, but it kept the paint from falling off my Camino.

Makes sense to me...

Thanks once again for sharing your knowledge.

Bill

It's always a pleasure to pass on what I've learned from others... I just wish the old timers were still with us to share even more knowledge...

PS. BTW,

I did my annual Chevy Show thing and managed to score yet one more trophy with the old girl, thanks to you.

Congratulations!

:dblthumb2:

Mike Phillips

08-08-2012, 07:38 AM

BillyJack

08-08-2012, 08:18 AM

By the way, be careful with that old bottle of Meguiar's Cleaner/Wax that label is using the original font when it was first introduced in 1973

I haven't seen one of those bottles for years...

Here's the first consumer paint care product Meguiar's introduced in 1973,

Car Cleaner Wax - Liquid
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/21973CleanerWaxLiquid.jpg

:)

It was about 1975 when the detail supplies vendor for our dealership became a Meg's Dealer. Before then, the only stuff I had tried was #7 Sealer and Reseal Glaze and the "Competition Finish", black bottles that were labeled "Meguiar", not Meguiar's IIRC.
I was at the time a big fan of Classic Slipstream for my own vehicles, but the red bottle Meguiar's was the stuff I recommended to our customers then and still do today. The average Joe wants quick results with one step and the red bottle is still tough to beat for ease of use and forgiving to those who feel that "more is better" when applying.

BTW, if you are missing any of the old containers shown in my previous post for your Meg's collection, I'll be happy to send any of mine to you. It's the least I can do for the help you've been to me the past few years.

Bill

tpr1634

08-08-2012, 04:43 PM