Transition from DA to Rotary

[b0b]

Hello all,

I currently have a Flex 3401 and am looking to add another tool to my collection. A problem that I have been having on all the family cars I have been detailing is the need of a smaller pad in the tight areas.. I am a beginner by all means, the Flex was the first machine polisher I had ever seen in person or used. I have used it on about 10 cars now and am getting quite comfortable with it. I practice the slow arm technique and make sure to do uniform section passes as stated in Mike's videos... My real question is would buying a Flex L3403 VRG be acceptable for my level of experience? I really want another tool for the tight areas, and the headlights of my dad's VW are terrible (looking to fix those without sanding for obvious reasons). Should I invest in this or better off waiting for now? I saw an article that Mike posted saying the FLEX L3403 is considered the "next step" in easiness of learning so I figured this would be acheivable for me. My only worry is that I have absolutly no one that I can see work a rotary in person, and not sure if it is a tool that you can easily teach yourself to do it CORRECTLY..

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/22263-how-choose-right-polisher-your-detailing-project.html
The article ^

Thanks everyone in advance...

[Dr Oldz]

I would suggest going to a scrap yard and picking up a black panel to practice on if you decide on a rotary. A DA is pretty easy to get the hang of and most of what you watch on video can be applied rather easily to DA polishing. When it comes to using a rotary, the best way to learn is practice, practice and more practice.

[Old Tiger]

aAs usual Jim is right. I recommend the Dewalt 849X it was easy for me after my 3401.

[truckbutt]

Get a Dewalt 849X, an Optimum Double Sided Adapter, a 4" flexible backing plate, and some 4"pads and you're good to go. The adapter gives you more ability to get into tight spaces. As said above, it's easy to go from the 3401 to a rotary.

[b0b]

Thanks for the help Jim. My only worry is that I might be doing it all wrong. Besides obvious scratches and blemishes, is there anything I should be looking for to tell me I am making a mistake before I inflict any damage to the paint..

I am checking out the Dewalt now, I appreciate the tip.

[primo spaghetti]

i have an old makita for a rotary that i just love...when i need a rotary.

id love to upgrade my PC to a Flex...im just a cheap scottish SOB and cant bring myself to do it yet!

[b0b]

Any major differences between the Dewalt and the Flex 3403?

[truckbutt]

Any major differences between the Dewalt and the Flex 3403?
The Dewalt 849X is a much heavier and more powerful beast that can handle any job. I used it all day Saturday without a hitch from compounding to polishing to jeweling. The Flex 3403 is a lightweight buffer mostly for touch ups and tight spaces. If you want to go with a Flex, go with the PE 14.

Done with a Dewalt 849X, M105, SF4000, 3M Ultrafine Polish, and DG 105/601:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1517/IMG_0152thb.JPG

[Mike Phillips]

Any major differences between the DeWALT and the Flex 3403?

The DeWALT is a full size rotary buffer and the Flex 3403 is a compact size rotary buffer.


From page 5 of this thread, the Flex 3403 is on the outside left hand side and you cans ee the DeWALTS that are yellow.

Bumblebee - Testing out the NEW DeWALT DWP849X (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/off-topic/37831-bumblebee-testing-out-new-dewalt-dwp849x.html)


Here's some pictures to show relative sizes...

The two Flex rotary buffers on the left are in the Compact category while the other 4 rotary buffers are in the Full Size category. Comparing the compacts with the full size rotary buffers can be done but it trends towards the comparing applies to oranges analogy as in person and in use you can tell right away when you switch from a full size to a compact or visa-versa.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/797/RotaryBuffersSizes01.jpg


:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

My real question is would buying a Flex L3403 VRG be acceptable for my level of experience?

I really want another tool for the tight areas, and the headlights of my dad's VW are terrible (looking to fix those without sanding for obvious reasons).



For getting into tight areas smaller, lightweight compact rotary buffers are better and easier to do this type of work because they are smaller and lighter. Some will argue with that point and that's their opinion but when using small pads it's a heck of a lot easier to do intricate work without having to manage more weight and bulk.

That said, as long as you focus on the task at hand you can sue the full size rotary buffers for surgical work.

Here's the Flex 3403 in action as I machine buff out the windshield frame of a 1932 Ford. I could do this with a larger full size rotary buffer but because I have the lightweight, compact rotary buffer as an option it's a no brainer.

Pictures + Video of 1932 Ford Highboy Extreme Makeover (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-open-garage-classes/27392-pictures-video-1932-ford-highboy-extreme-makeover.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/893/32FordHighboy030.jpg


Here's some surgical buffing using the Flex PE14

Surgical Buffing (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/47254-surgical-buffing.html)

Pinstriping paint tends to be more on the soft side versus hard side so you don't want to run your buffing pads over any pinstripes but you do want to buff as close to them as you can. In this picture I'm using an extension to position the pad a little farther away from the polisher so I can more easily see where the edge of my buffing pad is on the panel.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1202/49SedanDelivery0029.jpg


When buffing thin panels, or working next to edges, hold the rotary buffer with a firm grip and focus on the task at hand...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1202/49SedanDelivery0030.jpg


Edging - Buffing along an edge to knock it out before buffing out the rest of the major portions of the panel. By edging a panel first you don't have to buff near the edges as close when you switch over to a larger pad to buff out the panel.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1202/49SedanDelivery0031.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1202/49SedanDelivery0022.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1202/49SedanDelivery0023.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1202/49SedanDelivery0024.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1202/49SedanDelivery0025.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1202/49SedanDelivery0026.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1202/49SedanDelivery0027.jpg



I have some 3" pads that are not actually available. I asked Eric Dunn for these late last year and have been using them with great results. You can also see I'm using an Optimum Optimum Double-Sided Rotary Adapter (http://www.autogeek.net/optimum-rotary-adapter.html) attached to a 2-3/4 inch Hook & Loop Rotary Backing Plate (http://www.autogeek.net/2vebapl.html) with these small rotary buffer pads.


The adapter acts as an extension which allows me to better see where the pads touching the paint as I buff and also works sometimes to give you enough clearance to buff into tight areas.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1202/49SedanDelivery0020.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1202/49SedanDelivery0021.jpg

If it has paint... it gets polished... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/23865-if-has-paint-gets-polished.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/WorkingLowerSections006.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/WorkingLowerSections005.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/WorkingLowerSections007.jpg






Should I invest in this or better off waiting for now? I saw an article that Mike posted saying the FLEX L3403 is considered the "next step" in easiness of learning so I figured this would be achievable for me.


I wrote that the first year I came to Autogeek from Meguiar's, since then the DeWALT 849X was introduced as was the Flex PE14, (see pics above), both of these are very good buffers for their CATEGORY.

Everyone is always comparing them like apples to apples when they are different categories, so depending on what you want to do choose the tool for the job.

If the majority of your work is going to be heavy duty correction work then get a full size for the reason I wrote here,




More reciprocating mass creates more torque
My personal thoughts are that if you're going to be buffing out sanding marks all day long or removing oxidation from large boats all day long then a full size rotary buffer would be a better choice.

The gears are bigger in size as are the rest of the components in a full size rotary buffer and I think having more reciprocating mass creates more torque and this is something you would want if you're going to be doing heavy compounding and polishing with full size pads, (8" and larger), 6 days a week.




If you're only going to do surgical buffing then get a compact, lightweight rotary buffer.




Apples to Oranges
Comparing the Flex PE14 to any of the full size DeWALT rotary buffers, or the Makita, or any other brand of full size rotary buffers is like comparing apples to oranges in that the Flex PE14 is a true compact rotary buffer and falls into the Compact Size category, while the DeWALT DWP849X falls into the Full Size category for rotary buffers.


Makita 9227C vs DeWALT DWP849X
A better comparison would be to compare the Makita 9227C with the DeWALT DWP849X as they are much more similar and my guess is that DeWALT introduced this new model to compete against the Makita rotary buffer. Both of these buffers, the Makita or the DeWALT would be great choices.




If you don't own a rotary buffer and this will be your first purchase, then check out my article here,

DeWALT DWP849X vs Makita 9227C Rotary Buffers (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/circular-polishers-rotary-polishers-high-speed-polisher/50661-dewalt-dwp849x-vs-makita-9227c-rotary-buffers.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/797/DeWALTvsMakita017.jpg







My only worry is that I have absolutely no one that I can see work a rotary in person, and not sure if it is a tool that you can easily teach yourself to do it CORRECTLY..



Getting some tips and working one on one with someone proficient with a rotary buffer is a lot better than figuring it out all on your own. I've seen people dis going to a class like I teach and all I can tell you is in my life the feedback I've always received is overwhelmingly positive.

Pictures & Comments from September 19th Detailing 102 Class (http://pictures%20&%20comments%20from%20september%2019th%20detailing% 20102%20class/)

Tanya is ready to learn the way of the rotary buffer...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass087.jpg


First things first and that's learning the 10 @ 10 Technique for picking up a bead of product...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass088.jpg


Tilt about 10 degrees and run the buffing pad over the bead at the 10 O'clock position with the 3 O'clock position of the pad just lightly against the paint...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass089.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass090.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass091.jpg


When you get to the end of the bead of product then lay the pad flat and begin compounding the section you're working.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass092.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass093.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass096.jpg


And now it's time for Tanya to show the guys how it's done...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass116.jpg


Tanya sprays the Optimum Hyper-Polish onto the face of the Optimum Foam Polishing Pad...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass117.jpg


When using a rotary buffer you need to focus on the task at hand... she's got that down...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass118.jpg


Notice in the above and below pictures how Tanya's opted to hold the head of the polisher instead of the D-Handle? Holding the head, or in other words getting her grip closer to the transfer point of power to paint gives here more leverage over the tool and makes buffing easy... of course Hyper-Polish has an excellent buffing cycle and that makes it super easy to buff with...


Perfect technique
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass119.jpg


Marketing...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/936/Sept19ADVClass120.jpg




Short of going to a class on paint polishing that includes using a rotary buffer the next best thing is to do like Jim said and get a hood or trunk lid and practice.

Then when you do start out on a real car don't start out on a black Viper, pick some daily driver that no one will care if you make a little whoops...


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Having both a DA polisher like the Flex 3401 and a rotary buffer is a great combination as you can always do the grunt work with the rotary buffer and then do the last machine polishing step with the 3401 to ensure a swirl free finish.

Hologram Free with a Rotary Buffer (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/43684-hologram-free-rotary-buffer.html)

And even machine apply the wax using the Flex 3401,


1957 Chevrolet Belair Extreme Makeover - Flex 3401 & Wolfgang Smackdown! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/20751-1957-chevrolet-belair-extreme-makeover-flex-3401-wolfgang-smackdown.html)


Here I'm using a Meguiar's W9207 Softbuff Finishing pad (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-finishing-pad.html) on the 3.0 setting to apply the Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0 (http://www.autogeek.net/wg5500.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/747/57TuqChev101.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/747/57TuqChev102.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/747/57TuqChev128.jpg


:xyxthumbs:

[Dr Oldz]

Thanks for the help Jim. My only worry is that I might be doing it all wrong. Besides obvious scratches and blemishes, is there anything I should be looking for to tell me I am making a mistake before I inflict any damage to the paint..

I am checking out the Dewalt now, I appreciate the tip.

Honestly, your work on a scrap black panel will speak for itself. Just ALWAYS keep the polisher moving is the best advice I can offer. Just be sure to remove polishing oils and possible fillers prior to checking your work with a chemical stripper such as Car Pro Eraser. I also suggest trying to burn a section and a corner so you can guage what it takes to burn thru. Everyone has burned thru at one point if they are using a rotary long enough.............mind as well make your first burn thru on a scrap panel!

[b0b]

Done with a Dewalt 849X, M105, SF4000, 3M Ultrafine Polish, and DG 105/601:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1517/IMG_0152thb.JPG

Very impressive results:xyxthumbs:


The DeWALT is a full size rotary buffer and the Flex 3403 is a compact size rotary buffer.



:xyxthumbs:

Thank you Mike for clearing this up for me...





The adapter acts as an extension which allows me to better see where the pads touching the paint as I buff and also works sometimes to give you enough clearance to buff into tight areas.



If the majority of your work is going to be heavy duty correction work then get a full size for the reason I wrote here, If you're only going to do surgical buffing then get a compact, lightweight rotary buffer.

:)

I think I am leaning towards the Dewalt as it seems like it can do more overall. The lightness and size of the Flex is appealing, but it seems to me that the Dewalt can handle the small spaces well (especially with that spacer) and can get out the rough stuff as well... Thanks for all your help, 1 month ago I couldnt tell you what a DA polisher was to save my life, now I'm looking to getting my second machine... :buffing:

And I have looked for detailing classes around Cincinnati but haven't found anything... I would absolutely love to come down to Florida but my work schedule doesn't allow that at all, especially in the summertime.


Thanks again for all the help and info,

Bob

[AutowerxDetailing]

I think I am leaning towards the Dewalt as it seems like it can do more overall. The lightness and size of the Flex is appealing, but it seems to me that the Dewalt can handle the small spaces well (especially with that spacer) and can get out the rough stuff as well... Thanks for all your help, 1 month ago I couldnt tell you what a DA polisher was to save my life, now I'm looking to getting my second machine... :buffing:

You're going to love the 849X!

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/circular-polishers-rotary-polishers-high-speed-polisher/52076-first-rotary-849x-mind-blown.html

[truckbutt]

You're going to love the 849X!

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/circular-polishers-rotary-polishers-high-speed-polisher/52076-first-rotary-849x-mind-blown.html
:iagree: