Fixing a black car-how would you approach this?

[Siorus]

Hi guys,

I'm getting ready to detail my '03 Z06. I bought it used, and evidently the PO felt that the appropriate way to wash it was using a scrub brush and dish soap. Short of peeling/sun-scorched clear or being deliberately keyed or something, I have never personally seen paint in worse condition. Not on a car this new, at any rate. It's scratched, hazed, and was hit with one egg that I can see.

I don't think it's completely fixable; the car probably needs a paintjob. But I think I can correct maybe 80% of it. I've never tackled anything this bad before, though, and I want to double check my plans.

First, a couple of (very large) pics so you guys know what I'm working with.

http://i.imgur.com/ayFSQ.jpg whole car
http://i.imgur.com/Ypc8X.jpg hood (with flash)
http://i.imgur.com/jiSJB.jpg hood (no flash)
http://i.imgur.com/Rbs3H.jpg (passenger side doorhandle)

Don't mind the water droplets; it's distilled. I rinse cars with it after washing them rather than drying them by hand. And my garage is a disaster area; fixing that is on my "to do" list at some point, too. Just not now. :rolleyes:

Anyhow. I've got a Flex 3401, and I just ordered a set of the Lake Country Kompressor pads because I didn't feel that the normal pads would perform as well on this car, given all of the compound curves and stuff. I've also got some wool pads, but I'm hesitant to use them for fear of making it worse (although I don't suppose that's possible, given how bad it is at the moment...).

As far as compounds go, I've got the Meguiar's M0416 Heavy-Cut Cleaner, the M0116 Medium-Cut Cleaner, the M0316 Machine Glaze, and Menzerna PO106FA and PO85RD.

My plan was to do a test section with the P0106 and the orange kompressor pad, then step up to the purple pad if that was ineffective. If that's not enough, the next step would be to try the M0116 on the purple pad, followed by the M0416.

Is that reasonable, or is this bad enough that I should skip straight to a wool pad with the M0416 or something? Would it be worth forgoing the Meguiar's stuff in favor of some of the more aggressive Menzerna compounds-say the PO91E or the S34A?

It also has awful orange peel (which is evidently a "thing" with Corvettes); I've considered wet sanding it but doing that without a paint thickness gauge makes me somewhat uncomfortable. Given how bad the paint is now, though, maybe it's worth doing?

What say you guys?

Also, one (more...) really dumb question: Obviously, I'm going to need to mask off the edges of the panels and stuff when I do this. What do I do about the scratches under the masking tape? I mean, the obvious answer is "polish it by hand". Which is fine. I've got some smaller pads and one of those handle deals for using them by hand. But how am I going to avoid swirling the paint if I'm trying to buff it out using the M0416 or whatever by hand?

[Mike Phillips]

Anyhow. I've got a Flex 3401, and I just ordered a set of the Lake Country Kompressor pads because I didn't feel that the normal pads would perform as well on this car, given all of the compound curves and stuff.


Those will work well and they do conform well to curves.



I've also got some wool pads, but I'm hesitant to use them for fear of making it worse (although I don't suppose that's possible, given how bad it is at the moment...).


Try to just use the Kompressor foam cutting pad...





As far as compounds go, I've got the Meguiar's M0416 Heavy-Cut Cleaner, the M0116 Medium-Cut Cleaner, the M0316 Machine Glaze,


The above will probably work but my guess is while they are removing scratches they will also be scouring the paint when used with the Flex 3401. The M04 is an updated version of the product that came out in the 1930's but the M01 is still similar to something from around the time of the Model A. The M03 is a non-abrasive pure polish like a wetter version of M07.

I would actually skip all of the above and get some Meguiar's M105 Ultra Cut Compound. It will cut fast and finish out like a polish. If you've been out of the online detailing discussions for a few years M105 is the compound to beat by machine or by hand.



and Menzerna PO106FA and PO85RD.


Perfect for cleaning up after the M105, use the 106 with a polishing pad and the 85 with a finishing pad and then to go wax.




My plan was to do a test section with the P0106 and the orange Kompressor pad, then step up to the purple pad if that was ineffective. If that's not enough, the next step would be to try the M0116 on the purple pad, followed by the M0416.


Go for it. I would place a tape-line on a panel and then just buff on one side so you can EASILY tell if you're making progress or not. See this article,



How To Do a Test Spot (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/50162-how-do-test-spot.html)


A Test Spot
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/TestSpot03.jpg






Is that reasonable, or is this bad enough that I should skip straight to a wool pad with the M0416 or something? Would it be worth forgoing the Meguiar's stuff in favor of some of the more aggressive Menzerna compounds-say the PO91E or the S34A?


M105 or it's cousin Ultimate Compound. Bot cut fast and finish out like polishes. Pretty amazing abrasive technology.




It also has awful orange peel (which is evidently a "thing" with Corvettes); I've considered wet sanding it but doing that without a paint thickness gauge makes me somewhat uncomfortable. Given how bad the paint is now, though, maybe it's worth doing?


Modern Corvettes are infamous for the very hard clear coats, so here's what I've been typing for years...

"Wetsanding is easy, that's putting scratches into the paint, the tricky part is getting them out"

Actually, the tricky part is getting 100% of them out.


You can do it but keep in mind that any UV protection is in the clear layer of paint, the more you remove the less you'll have to protect the basecoat and the actual matrix of paint over the life of the car.

If you're going to do it, the dampsand it using Meguiar's Unigrit sanding discs, see my article here,


Damp-Sanding Tools, Tips and Techniques by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/25915-damp-sanding-tools-tips-techniques-mike-phillips.html)


We're waiting to get the new 3M #5000 grit discs and they would be a good option because it will be very easy to remove your sanding marks using your 3401 with M105, check this out,

Video: Wow! 3M #5000 Grit Polishing I mean Sanding Discs! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/50222-video-wow-3m-5000-grit-polishing-i-mean-sanding-discs.html)






What say you guys?

Also, one (more...) really dumb question: Obviously, I'm going to need to mask off the edges of the panels and stuff when I do this. What do I do about the scratches under the masking tape? I mean, the obvious answer is "polish it by hand". Which is fine. I've got some smaller pads and one of those handle deals for using them by hand. But how am I going to avoid swirling the paint if I'm trying to buff it out using the M0416 or whatever by hand?

What you're talking about is called,

Perfectionist Detailing

It can be done if you have the time.

Forget the M04 Heavy Cut Cleaner, I use that to clean water spots off glass. Get a couple of quarts of M105 Ultimate Compound, you're going to need it.

Check out this thread on how to machine sand up to an edge with surgeon precision. I show these in all my detailing classes and use them myself, can't say enough great things about the 3" Griot's Mini Polisher when used with Meguiar's 3" Unigrit Sanding Discs.

Griot's 3" Mini Polisher works great as a 3" Dampsander (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/46341-griot-s-3-mini-polisher-works-great-3-dampsander.html)


Dampsanding with 3" Griot's Garage Mini Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/38475-dampsanding-3-griot-s-garage-mini-polisher.html)


Dampsanding
This is a match made in car detailing heaven. This mini dual action polisher works flawlessly as a 3" dampsander. It makes sanding close to edges safe and easy. It makes sanding small thin panels faster and easier.

With this combination of polisher and 3" sanding disc with an interface pad for conforming to the shape of the panel you can quickly and easily sand out a minor or small defect with surgical precision in an isolated area with only a small footprint.


Here's a few pictures from our most recent Wetsanding Class, the pictures kind of tell the story...


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding006.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding007.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding008.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding009.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding010.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding011.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding012.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding013.jpg


Just a reminder, here's what the paint looked like when this 1971 GTO arrived... it has extreme orange peel...

Wetsanding Class at Autogeek - 1971 GTO - The Black Orange (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/off-topic/38199-wetsanding-class-autogeek-1971-gto-black-orange.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1206/1971GTODampSand003.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1206/1971GTODampSand004.jpg





Then when it comes to removing the sanding marks that are close to an edge, get the 3M blue vinyl tape and work them out by hand, like this,


The Rule of Thumb (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/25042-rule-thumb.html)




http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/RuleOfThumb.jpg

Copyright ©PBMA - AutogeekOnline.net® All Rights Reserved


First, here's a tip when it comes to sanding paint by hand or machine...

Don't sand where you cannot safely machine compound.


The reason for this is because if you sand right up to an edge or up to a raised body line, it's difficult to run a buffing pad up to the end of your sanding marks and not buff on top of the body line or edge and risk burning through the topcoat.

Even if you're extremely careful it's all to easy to accidentally run the pad onto the edge and it only takes a few seconds to generate enough heat and abrasive sanding or cutting action to eat through the paint on a high point and expose the color coat, primer or even sheet metal underneath.

Remember paint will tend to be thinner on high points as wet paint, (when being sprayed), will flow off a little more than paint sprayed onto a flat panel.

So a good practice is to only sand where you can safely machine compound or another way of saying this is to not sand where you cannot safely machine compound.


The Rule of Thumb
The rule of thumb I use is with my thumb, mostly because I always have it with me. :D

I use the distance from the tip of my thumb to the end of my thumbnail, which I just measured and it's about 3/4 of an inch and that's about how far away I stay from edges and raised body lines when I sand by hand or machine.

Actually a 1/2" is a pretty good rule of thumb the bigger idea is to not sand paint where you cannot safely buff with a wool pad, a cutting compound with a rotary buffer.

This is a technique I teach in our wet-sanding classes to give students a simple method or a simple guideline they can use to know just how far to sand when sanding near a hard body line or the edge of a panel. This is a simple technique that works for me but feel free to come up with your own method.



Show Car and Perfectionist Sanding and Polishing
For those of you wanting to do perfectionist sanding and polishing, first make sure you're getting paid well because you can sand right up to an edge but removing your sanding marks has to be done carefully and this means it will require you to invest more time into the project.


How to sand right up to an edge and remove your sanding marks by hand
There is a fix for the issue of sanding right next to an edge or a raised body line and that's by carefully sanding and then using Meguiar's M105 Ultra Compound by hand to remove your sanding marks. Another way to remove sanding marks next to an edge or to a raised body line is to use Spot Repair Pads on a rotary buffer using a technique I call Edging.

Because M105 is aggressive, (rated at being able to remove #1200 Grit Sanding Marks on fresh paint), and recommended for use by hand, you can easily remove sanding marks by hand if you're willing to put a little passion behind the pad (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/23568-put-little-passion-behind-pad-mike-phillips.html).

There are a lot of compounds that can be applied by hand to remove sanding marks, but it's the ability of the super micro abrasive technology, (SMAT), used in M105 that gives it both its' cutting ability and the ability to polish out clear and glossy that makes M105 Ultra Compound a good choice for carefully rubbing out sanding marks right up to an edge or a raised body line by hand.

Note: The blue line you see in the pictures below is vinyl tape applied over the top of a body lines on the hood of this 1969 El Camino to make it easier to see and protect them. You can also do this with the edges of a panel.


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/RemvovingSandingMarksbyHand01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/RemvovingSandingMarksbyHand02.jpg


In the picture examples above, the raised body lines running down the hood can be hard to see once you start sanding a panel as you'll have paint slurry all over the panel thus camouflaging the raised body line. Like this, note how it's harder to see where the tape lines are with paint slurry on the panel...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/UnigritDampSanding002.jpg

If you don't know exactly where the raised body lines are, it's all to easy to accidentally run your sanding disk, (by machine), or sanding paper, (by hand), over the raised portion of the body line and remove way too much paint way too quickly.

While you might not sand through the clear layer on the body line if you accidentally sand on top of it, remember you still will have to compound and polish the paint and compounding and polishing will also remove some paint; so the risk of sanding or burning through the paint on a raised body line is great.


Here's a tip...
Take a moment to mark any raised body lines with some thin painter's tape and avoid a costly and time-consuming mistake.

You can also tape-off any edges to protect them and to make them clearly visible while you're sanding.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/redelcamino_023.jpg



M105 Ultra-Cut Compound
(http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-mirror-glaze-105-ultra-cut-compound.html)

Does that help?

p.s.

I sanded and cut the above 1970 El Camino using M105 and M205 and you can see all of the before, process and after pictures here,


Damp-Sanding Tools, Tips and Techniques by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/25915-damp-sanding-tools-tips-techniques-mike-phillips.html)

A few beauty shots outside...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/redelcamino_064.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/redelcamino_065.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/redelcamino_066.jpg


Note the chrome trim around the side marker lights is still missing...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/redelcamino_067.jpg




:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

Check this out for learning and using the new Menzerna names...

Menzerna - New Names and Product Numbers (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/products-guides/47067-menzerna-new-names-product-numbers.html)


Menzerna has introduced all new labels and product names for identifying their products. I know it's easy to stick with what you know and change can be hard but the new product names and identifying numbers are here to stay so might as well make the switch when talking and typing about them..




PG 1000 – PowerGloss Compound (http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-powergloss-compound.html) (S34A)


SI 1500 – Super Intensive Polish (http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-po83-si1500.html) (PO83)


IP 2000 – Intensive Polish (http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-intensive-polish.html) (PO91E)


PF 2500 – Power Finish Polish (http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-polish-po203.html) (PO203)


FF 3000 – Final Finish Polish (http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-final-polish.html) (PO85U)


SF 4000 – Super Finish Polish (http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-nano-polish-po-106-fa-finishing-polish.html) (PO106FA)


SF 4500 – Super Finish Polish (http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-final-finish-po85rd.html) (PO85RD)


Menzerna Power Lock Polymer Paint Sealant (http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-power-lock-sealant.html)


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/NewMenzernaLabels001.jpg




:)

[mhphoto]

☝ What he said :laughing:

[Siorus]

Hey Mike,

Thanks for the posts. I hope you had most of that sitting around to copy and paste! :) I'll have to order some of the M105.

Unfortunately for the perfectionist in me, I've got a finite and fairly limited amount of time to deal with this right now, so I may have to suck it up, put up with the orange peel and the really, really nasty scratches and just buff it out with the M105 and the Menzerna stuff, throw a coat of wax on it and deal with fixing it properly in a month or two.

One question on the dampsanding; aside from the time savings, what advantage does using the Griot's DA and sanding pads offer over just picking up a soft foam sanding block and doing it by hand?