DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

[Largebore]

Perhaps the good Dr. can comment.

Is their any scientific evidence that shows that wax's or sealants actually protect against anything ?

We are told that LSP are absolutely necessary for the protection of the paints finish.
I dunno, but a bird just pooped on my well protected car and the finish was instantly etched even when I took it off with Crystal mist...

A lot of time is spent on the forum in serious discussion as to which brand protects more, which carnuba has more wax left after the liquid evaporates and whether or not the amount of wax left has anything to do with the protection.

Protectiion is a primary motivator for people buying these products, yet I have not seen anything scientific that shows that the LSP's provide any sort of protection against anything.

Some posts call this protection an urban legend. Some say that the LSP's cannot reduce UV, salt, bird poop or dirt contamination at all !

So other than perpetuating the urban legend that infact LSP's do something beside make your car shiny, nothing wrong with that by the way, is their any scientific evidence to support the theory that they do infact provide protection and that the protection that they might provide in anyway enhances the longevity and quality of the finish ? And if so to what extent ?

[EPA7]

Perhaps the good Dr. can comment.

Is their any scientific evidence that shows that wax's or sealants actually protect against anything ?

We are told that LSP are absolutely necessary for the protection of the paints finish.
I dunno, but a bird just pooped on my well protected car and the finish was instantly etched even when I took it off with Crystal mist...

A lot of time is spent on the forum in serious discussion as to which brand protects more, which carnuba has more wax left after the liquid evaporates and whether or not the amount of wax left has anything to do with the protection.

Protectiion is a primary motivator for people buying these products, yet I have not seen anything scientific that shows that the LSP's provide any sort of protection against anything.

Some posts call this protection an urban legend. Some say that the LSP's cannot reduce UV, salt, bird poop or dirt contamination at all !

So other than perpetuating the urban legend that infact LSP's do something beside make your car shiny, nothing wrong with that by the way, is their any scientific evidence to support the theory that they do infact provide protection and that the protection that they might provide in anyway enhances the longevity and quality of the finish ? And if so to what extent ?

Great question! :xyxthumbs:
I've been wondering that myself. So much discussion on swirl removal, etching, sealants, and waxes, yet it seems that if the sealants and waxes were really effective, there wouldn't be much need for swirl removal or dealing with etching.

[Setec Astronomy]

I think Dr. G would say that Opti-Coat is the beef.

Many of us have been frustrated to see a bird poop eat right through a fresh coat of LSP, but anecdotally, you can see the cars that aren't cared for all have CC failure or the paint worn off.

I guess a traditional LSP doesn't do A LOT, but it seems to do SOMETHING. Plus, the bird poop comes off a lot easier with a fresh coat of LSP :p

[Perfections]

This is just my own personal observation and is in no way backed by scientific proof but it seems paint sealants protect better against man made hazards while carnauba waxes protect better against mother nature created stuff like bird poop. While this was not what I expected because in my mind paint sealants are designed to last longer then waxes so thus I figured the protection would be better against things like bird poop but haven't seen it.

[builthatch]

I guess a traditional LSP doesn't do A LOT, but it seems to do SOMETHING. Plus, the bird poop comes off a lot easier with a fresh coat of LSP :p

this is correct; it provides somewhat of a sacrificial barrier; acids, whether organic or otherwise, are nasty - opti-coat is the ultimate solution against them.

well-built and properly applied LSPs will essentially "trap" a lot of the things that damage paint, like residual water mineral, road grime, etc., and obviously make the surface less apt to hold dirt and easier to clean...but they certainly aren't a forcefield, haha.

2.0 is sensational.

[Largebore]

The debate is certainly a longstanding one, although my carnuba did not protect against 100% natural bird poop.

But staying on topic, what would be very interesting is "scientific evidence"

[Mike Phillips]

The debate is certainly a longstanding one, although my Carnauba did not protect against 100% natural bird poop.

But staying on topic, what would be very interesting is "scientific evidence"


I have something that explains this in my article here. The point you bring up is brought up all the time, ever since I started teaching classes at Meguiar's so I finally put down on paper or rather pixel what the skinny is...

Here's the article,


How long does it take for a bird dropping to etch paint? (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/30535-how-long-does-take-bird-dropping-etch-paint.html)

Here's the pertinent point...





What's the best wax or paint sealant to protect against bird droppings?
This incident really drives home the point that on the topic of protection and that's ANYTHING corrosive enough to harm or etch a modern clear coat paint is strong enough and/or corrosive enough to eat through and obliterate any micron thin layer of wax or paint sealant from any company.

Think about it... the clear layer of paint is harder and thicker than the thin layer of whatever wax or paint sealant you apply, let dry and then wipe off your car's paint to protect it.





Note: All of the above was written before Dr. Ghodoussi introduced paint coatings...



:)

[EPA7]

The debate is certainly a longstanding one, although my carnuba did not protect against 100% natural bird poop.

But staying on topic, what would be very interesting is "scientific evidence"

The only "scientific" evidence I've seen is from NuFinish back in the day, and the modern version of NuFinish they sell at fairs and infomercials where they light sterno on the finish and it miraculously survives. (scientific in quotes because both were more akin to parlor tricks than science, but at least they attempted to address the durability and protection question).

I would love to see the kind of testing results for these boutique products that CR does, or that paint companies do.

Maybe Mike or some of the other principals in these car care product companies can point us toward some objective research on durability and protection?

[Ted S.]

Can't comment for the good doctor, but if you've ever clayed a car that hasn't been waxed (ever, or for 6+ months) vs. one that is regularly waxed; the clay will speak for itself.

[Largebore]

I have something that explains this in my article here. The point you bring up is brought up all the time, ever since I started teaching classes at Meguiar's so I finally put down on paper or rather pixel what the skinny is...

Here's the article,


How long does it take for a bird dropping to etch paint? (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/30535-how-long-does-take-bird-dropping-etch-paint.html)

Here's the pertinent point...





Note: All of the above was written before Dr. Ghodoussi introduced paint coatings...



:)

OK, can we strike off the list, protection from bird poop as one of the purported protection benefits of LSP's ?

[Detail_Dude]

Perhaps the good Dr. can comment.
I dunno, but a bird just pooped on my well protected car and the finish was instantly etched even when I took it off with Crystal mist...


How much time went by between when it landed and when you removed it? I am not and expert, but imagine longer duration = greater potential negative results.

I've missed a train to work because I parked my car in the lot, saw a bird dropping from the night before and felt compelled to remove it immediately on my DD (jet black). I keep a couple of MF's and a small 4oz spray bottle of QD in my trunk.

[Largebore]

As "Ted.S" & "builthatch" point out the LSP does 'seem" to make the surface less apt to hold dirt. Defintely a benefit in my book as the dirt is more likely to scratch the surface...

An important point perhaps, is that the LSP's are not a barrier or forcefield. I think that they are often portrayed as such.

But in anycase, notwithstanding some very relevant observations and experiences I would still find the objective scientific evidence of great interest.. I mean someone other than the guy igniting his hood with lighter fluid must have done scientific research? UV protection? Waterpenetration? Oxidation ?

[Largebore]

How much time went by between when it landed and when you removed it? I am not and expert, but imagine longer duration = greater potential negative results.

I've missed a train to work because I parked my car in the lot, saw a bird dropping from the night before and felt compelled to remove it immediately on my DD (jet black). I keep a couple of MF's and a small 4oz spray bottle of QD in my trunk.

4 hours

[richy]

Other than maybe battery acid, bird merde is about the worst thing you can get on your paint. Not to mention the probability of getting hit by a bird is fairly high over the life of the car. It is highly acidic and even worse contains small stones, rocks, etc that help with the bird's digestion.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but, there is NO magic solution against it. Besides the obvious that not all bird bombs are the same, the longer it sits, the worse it will be. OC is the best you can have, but even it is not impervious to the damage that the bird bomb can do. The key is very timely removal in a safe a fashion as possible. No guarantees on what damage may occur even very quickly. It's beyond your control. Remove it quickly and safely is all you can do.

[Chris Thomas]

I was tapping out a reply, then realized I was speaking from experience. While my experience is documented with pictures and testimonials...it's not scientifically presented. So...I've made Dr. G aware of the thread and he'll answer it as time permits.

A couple of things I find remarkable about Optimum Protection Products:

Regarding Optimum Car Wax:

With continued use, Optimum Car Wax's UV ingredients actually permeate the paint and restore OEM UV inhibitors that were used up/lost.

Regarding Optimum Paint Coatings:

Our distributor in Australia posed this question:

"I've been doing some testing by leaving bird bombs on the paint for extended periods. On more than one occasion it has left some slight etching after a few weeks, but then this etching later disappears. It isn't getting washed off, because I checked the etching after the wash to make sure it was still present. But then by the next wash it has already disappeared. I didn't think too much off it until a client of ours said he experienced the same thing. Anyone got an explanation for this??? "

Dr Ghodoussi's reply:

"What happens is the "etching" you see is in fact a stain on the coating. Not etching as the acid doesn't damage the coating. After a few days this stain breaks down in the heat of the sun and disappears."