Correction Help.........I need help plz...

[331TwistedWedge]

there has to be a quicker method in correcting swirls on my vehicles ... using megs 105 and a surbuf pad it takes me 3-4 weekends to get my cars swirl free, i would guess around 90% swirl free ...

currently i am correcting my new to me / used 1999 saturn ... i have several products and pads but no matter what i use, i always have to resort back to megs 105 and the surbuf pad ... nothing and i mean nothing else seems to cut as quick as this combo ... even with the 105/surbuf its taking me forever to get 1 panel done ... im working in a 12"x12" section with a small amount of 105 (about a 2" strip) its the only way i can use this stuff without it gumming up ... i have even used the 205 with the 105 for a longer working period but that just gums my pad up pretty bad ...

i need some tips, tricks or any help on correcting the paint/clear on my cars ... if i did this stuff for a living i would be broke ... im slower than a snail, im pretty pathetic.............but in the end, i think ive had some killer results.........but there has to be a quicker way to correct within a days work ... is it me or is the 105 hard to work with? ... im using a craftsman rotary buffer, 2 speeds, 1400 and 1650 rpms ... would a "real" buffer make all the difference in the world?

thx for any help .........

[tuscarora dave]

So you are using the surbuf pads on your rotary polisher? That's interesting. I haven't seen that in the past. I use the purple foamed wool pads with 105 for hard paints working in a small work section, maybe 16"x16" at about 1200-1800 rpm depending on the shape of the panels and whether they're metal or plastic/composite. I follow that with a polishing or finishing foam pad (depending on paint) and 105 to remove any wool pad leftover marks then finish with a finishing pad and 205 at a lower speed of maybe 1100rpm down to 600rpm for a final few passes. This process of course is assuming I am working on very hard clear with a ton of swirls and other paint defects. If it's not that bad I drop the wool pad for a light cutting foam pad with 105 @ 1200-1800 rpm and finish with 205 and a foam finishing pad at a slower speed of 1100 and down to 600 rpm.

A more adjustable rotary might be helpful for finishing purposes but for the defect removal you should be good. I use the Kevin Brown rotary Method. I suggest reading it for the awesome amount of insight it delivers on the subject of paint compounding/polishing using a rotary or a DA which it was primarily written for.

[ScubaCougr]

A 'real' buffer might make a big difference:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/25148-traditional-orbital-buffer-aka-wax-spreader.html?highlight=wax+spreader

And yes, M105 can be a challenge. I use the OTC equivalent and often have to mist the pad/panel to keep it from immediately drying and gumming up, especially if the panel is even slightly warm.

Might try using a foam pad, like an orange CCS. I can't imagine trying to clean gummed up compound out of a Surfbuf.

Some polishes and compounds are more sun friendly. Might be worth trying a small bottle of Poorboys SR compounds to see if you get longer working time and/or easier cleaning to speed things up.

[bmwgalore]

Surbuf + 105 + rotary?
That's VERY agressive to finish up.. Get a DA polisher, like the PCxp, some Micro fiber pads and hit the car again...

But at this point you should measure your paint with a Paint Thickness Gauge, I have the felling it might be pretty tin now.

[tuscarora dave]

A 'real' buffer might make a big difference:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/25148-traditional-orbital-buffer-aka-wax-spreader.html?highlight=wax+spreader
Now I'm a bit confused, is the OP using a 2 speed rotary or a wax spreader? He said rotary and I doubt a wax spreader has a velcro backing to accept a surbuf pad.

Might be worth trying a small bottle of Poorboys SR compounds to see if you get longer working time and/or easier cleaning to speed things up.
Poorboy's SSR polishes would work for the Saturn but the Corvette in his avitar would straight up laugh at any SSR polish.

[331TwistedWedge]

thx for all the suggestions ... yes its a rotary craftsman, it has 2 speeds, 1400 and 1650 rpms ... maybe i have been correcting some rock hard clear coats? my c6 vette and now this 99 saturn ... if using a rotary buffer with the surbuf pads is the issue maybe i need to get a real buffer ...

im wore out from buffing, theres no way its this hard??? im going over each 12"x12" section like 3-4 times, not 3-4 passes, im talking about putting the 105 on my pad 3-4 different times and going at it ... im spending well over an hour on a door, another hour on a fender and on and on and on ...............

[tuscarora dave]

The first Corvette I did that had real hard clear coat took 20 hours of compounding and polishing to correct the paint using a rotary. I first started with Menzerna Power Gloss and it was really not cutting it at all. After talking with Asphalt Rocket on the phone for a while I got things back in order. He was pretty much adamant about the use of M-105 to do the cutting with a foam pad on the rotary. Sometimes a wool pad is necessary if the defects are really deep but with the right technique a foam polishing pad will work and create less holograms to polish off in the next step. I got my 105 and set out to get through the learning curve. With water bottle in hand (after reading Kevin Brown's paper about supplemental wetting agents) I finished that vette in another 10 hours or so. It was a really tough job that took 4 days to complete but I learned a ton about M-105 and the Kevin Brown Method. I have never turned back since that day. I have adapted a bunch of ideas from Kevin's writings and incorporated them into my own style of rotary compounding/polishing and now it takes 30% less time than it used to.

If you want to be using surbuf pads you really should be using them with a DA polisher like the Porter Cable 7424XP or another polisher like that. That's where those type of pads excell.

[Mike Phillips]

but there has to be a quicker way to correct within a days work ... is it me or is the 105 hard to work with? ...

im using a craftsman rotary buffer, 2 speeds, 1400 and 1650 rpms ...

would a "real" buffer make all the difference in the world?

thx for any help .........


Sounds like you need and want a twisted 100% wool cutting pad and a flexible backing plate to go with it.

I think we're getting some new styles of aggressive wool cutting pads but until then the Meguiar's wool pad in their So1o like is a good pad. Easy to buff with, great cutting power and easy to clean with a spur or a pad washer.


WWHC7 Solo Wool Heavy Cutting Pad 7 inch (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-heavy-wool-pad.html)

This is a matching flexible backing plate that I would recommend for this wool pad or any wool pad.

Meguiars Solo Easy Buff W66 Rotary Backing Plate 6 Inch (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-solo-easy-buff-w66-rotary-backing-plate-6-inch.html)

We also have this one that fits the Solo Heavy Cutting Wool Pad.

Flex-Foam HD Rotary Backing Plate, 6 inches (http://www.autogeek.net/rotary-6inch-backing-plate.html)


As for M105, at this time it is the best cutting and finishing compound on the market. I tested it against M101 and Menzerna FG500 on black paint and it still finishes out better than both, the M101 does cut faster but it didn't finish out as nice as the M105 on black paint.


A couple of tips for using M105 with a rotary buffer and a wool pad.

First, clean your pad often. If you don't have a steel pad cleaning spur then get one. Don't use the caveman method of using a screwdriver especially if you're in this for the long run simply invest the money and get the right tool for the job.

Lake Country Wool Pad Spur (http://www.autogeek.net/wool-pad-spur.html)

Second, anytime you find buffing with M105 difficult, shrink down the size of your work area. My shrinking down the size of your work area you will be keeping the product on the surface more liquid than buffing out a large section of paint.


Some people like to use a wetting agent to re-liquefy the compound and get more working life out of the abrasives. Meguiar's recommend either their body shop safe M34 because it's going to have the least amount of "extra" ingredients in it to interfere with the M105 formula, or plain water.


Third, always wipe a buffed panel clean before re-buffing. If you find you have to compound a panel a second time to remove all the defects, be sure to wipe off any previous residue before adding fresh product. When you add fresh product to spent product you're getting a completely new product that is now diluted with the spent compound and removed paint.


Fourth, hold the pad flat to the surface whenever you can hold the pad flat to the surface. You get more fibers cutting the paint working for you than if you only buff with an edge and you reduce the risk of burning through and edge and instilling deeper swirls. If you have to go up on edge then do so but try to buff flat whenever you can.

When you finish buffing one section of paint, start a new section and overlap a little into the previous section for a uniform, defect free appearance.


Fifth, try to do your heavy cutting in the morning when temperatures are still cool if you're working in a hot environment. This will give your compound a longer buffing cycle and make both buffing and wiping off residue easier.


Sixth, always do a Test Spot before buffing out the entire car. If you can't make one small section of paint look good to your expectations then you won't be able to make the entire car look good.


While Corvettes have very hard clear coats, I've used Porter Cable DA Polishers with foam cutting pads and Medium Cut Polishes to remove the majority of swirls and scratches. An aggressive compound like M105 however will remove more paint faster and from this what you'll "see" is faster defect removal. Just know where to draw the line for what to remove and what to live with as you don't want to remove too much paint or you could have clear coat failure issues into the future.


Above all, clean you pad often and always work on a clean surface.

A rotary buffer that is adjustable and lets you buff at a slower speed would be nice, if you're in this for the long run take a look at the DeWALT 849X as it dials down to 600 RPM and is a very well built tool for it's category.


:)

[tuscarora dave]

I knew it was just a matter of time until Mike had time to address this thread with his expertise. This guy is exactly the reason I was able to learn so much so quick and be able to move forward in the detailing industry. No one really (in my opinion) has done more for the detailing industry than Mike Phillips. Thanks Mike!!

[Mike Phillips]

I knew it was just a matter of time until Mike had time to address this thread with his expertise. This guy is exactly the reason I was able to learn so much so quick and be able to move forward in the detailing industry. No one really (in my opinion) has done more for the detailing industry than Mike Phillips. Thanks Mike!!


Gee Dave,

My first day back to work and you go making me blush...


Thanks for the kind words but one thing for sure, the longer I'm in the business the more if learn I still have a lot to learn.

I've never seen more new products, pads and just plain cutting edge technology being introduced at the pace we're seeing in the last years, it's really incredible.

Like my good friend Joe Fernandez once posted, (paraphrased)


"It used to be you actually had to have some skill and experience to create a swirl free, show car finish, now just about anyone can do it"



I also try to learn from all the guys in this industry that I've known for a long time and have been buffing out cars just as long or longer than I have because everyone brings something to the table if we're all simply open enough to take-in what they share...


It was nice being off for a week but it's actually nice to be back to work too...



:xyxthumbs:

[331TwistedWedge]

thx mike ... some things i was doing wrong.........100* temps here in cincinnati was def hurting me, not cleaning the dull 105 residue off after the first pass, not spurring the pad and not using any water ...

i did however work in a very small area, this i learned early on ... my results are pretty good, its just taking a ton of time to achieve them ...

thanks for everyones input, im still new to this correction process ... i think im going to order a few things ........

i wish i had a before pic, but this is the trunk of my 99 saturn ... it was swirled beyond belief ...

craftsman rotary
105- surbuf
menz po85rd - lake country cyan pad (i was out of the m205)
wizards show n shine
pinnacle signature series II

im probably doing things wrong, wrong equipment/pads, possibly using the menz after the 105, but the results were nice ... still learning/reading here on auto geek ...

[Mike Phillips]

im probably doing things wrong, wrong equipment/pads, possibly using the menz after the 105, but the results were nice ...

still learning/reading here on auto geek ...




You're doing great!

Here's your picture, I uploaded it into your gallery here on the AGO forum and inserted it to make it easier for everyone to see!

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/TwistedWedge.jpg




:dblthumb2:

[tuscarora dave]

Take a good look directly into the paint on that trunk lid. If the man you see staring back at you is happy, then all is well. Looks nice!

[331TwistedWedge]

Take a good look directly into the paint on that trunk lid. If the man you see staring back at you is happy, then all is well. Looks nice!


lol, i like that dave ... so very true! :xyxthumbs: