303 HTFG not working for me at all... (long post)

[neat e34]

I recently got hold of some 303 high-tech fabric guard & tried it our for the first time the other day on a carpet floor mat (just as a trial) & after allowing it to dry/cure, etc it has made no difference.
I'm after some opinions on why & advice on using this product as after reading reviews it seems not many others have issues with this...
I sure hope it's good because I have about 40oz of it!

Anyway, here was my process...

The bottle mentioned the importance of the fabric being clean so before applying I vacuumed, sprayed with Megs APC 10:1, scrubbed with a stiff brush then rinsed THOROUGHLY (for like 15 mins!) with my Karcher.
I left the mat to dry for almost 2 days so it was definitely COMPLETELY dry before I continued.
I then taped off half the mat to apply product to (I wanted to make any difference in look & feel obvious so wanted to do a 50/50 with & without...)

I then sprayed a reasonably heavy coat of FG on half of the mat & worked it in with a new paintbrush. I waited a while (10 mins?), sprayed another coat over & worked in again.
I figured this was better then one thick coat?

I then left the mat outside for around half hour to let some of the smell subside then bought it inside to a warm room (it's cold here)
It was actually in a room with 1000w of halogen lighting going so it was fairly warm!

I let the product dry & cure for at least 24 hours then gave it a spray of water to test it out &... nothing!
It soaked in like I had never put anything on it! As mentioned only half the mat was treated & there was literally no difference at all between sides.
Light mist & heavy drops all just soaked straight in...

Did I do something wrong? Feed back please
When I left it outside for the half hour after treating it was cold out but not at all wet so I know no moisture got on it for at least 24 hours (more like 30) after treating.

Anyone had similar issues?


As a side note I noticed the AG product page says this can be used on leather, footwear & other items??? Is this true?
I know it says on the bottle not for vinyl so I figured leather was also a no-go...
+ the AG product page also said it had a mild, clean smell which wasn't my experience!
I've smelt worse but it sure wasn't great...

Anyway, sorry for such a long post! Hope a few people make it through reading the whole thing a have some feedback

[rider9195]

I have been having problems with it as well. Subscribed.

[neat e34]

Well, glad to hear I'm not the only one! Did it just not work as well as you expected or did it not work at all?

I plan on giving it another shot but figured before wasting time & product I would ask around...

Sent from my GT-I9100 using AG Online

[FUNX650]

Auto carpet manufacturers use an assortment of materials, some natural...some synthetic, but they're all cured the same way---heating their carpeting with their specific: at-the-factory-'carpet-fabrics' protectants'...in heat-controlled ovens.

Time, carpet "cleaners", and 'frictional-forces' will erode this heretofore factory applied 'protectant', leaving it susceptible to incur a state of: less water repellancy, as well to staining.

To attain a more water-repellancy feature, some folks will, after throughly cleaning auto carpeting, apply a silicone protectant.
Yes, indeed, silicone will bead, shed, repel water like crazy for awhile...but it will also attract and hold-on/hold-in soils/indelible stains to the same or greater degree of craziness.

303 HTFG doesn't claim to be as water-repellant as silicone protectants...but does claim to provide (with routine carpet maintenance) better resistance to soiling, and, even, the sometimes unavoidable-chancing of "indelible stains".

Therefore, I find that products, such as 303 HTFG, are usually the best recourse for 'guarding'/protecting...not total water repellancy. (Just how I view carpet-fabric care.)

I suppose it depends on what a person's definition/concept of what carpet protection/protectant...would/should be, though.

:)

Bob

[neat e34]

Thanks for your answer Bob.
I agree that protection from staining & soiling is far better than pure water repellency however almost every review has mentioned the incredible beading or how a drink was spilt & sat on the fabric without soaking in until it could be cleaned up. I literally cannot tell ANY difference between treated & untreated areas.
Without any repellency obviously a spilt drink would soak in & stain?
To be honest I try not to drink at all in my car so am more worried about dirt, grease, etc but obviously the more protected the better...

Just wondering why my results aren't matching what others have reported...

Have you used htfg much before & what's been your experience?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using AG Online

[MichaelD]

I've used 303 HTFG on a Sunbrella/Glen Raven Fabrics acrylic boat cover to restore water repellancy. This type fabric is typically used in marine environments and building awnings, but I'll reply with what I know about it. I'm not sure how much of what I know applies to auto fabric interiors.

From the boating forums I've read, as well as Sunbrella's website, it is better to apply 2 light coats instead of a heavy coat. A coat needs to be thick enough to add a wet appearance to the fabric, but not heavy enough that it is soaked in HTFG. A single coat typically involves horizontal & vertical spray pattern.

I seem to recall that somewhere between 8 & 24 hours between coats is better than <1 hour. Dry time can exceed a day in some circumstances.

Given all the advice, it has added some water repelancy to my boat cover, however I wish it added more water repelancy than it did.

[FUNX650]

Thanks for your answer Bob.
I agree that protection from staining & soiling is far better than pure water repellency however almost every review has mentioned the incredible beading or how a drink was spilt & sat on the fabric without soaking in until it could be cleaned up. I literally cannot tell ANY difference between treated & untreated areas.
Without any repellency obviously a spilt drink would soak in & stain?
To be honest I try not to drink at all in my car so am more worried about dirt, grease, etc but obviously the more protected the better...

Just wondering why my results aren't matching what others have reported...

Have you used htfg much before & what's been your experience?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using AG Online

I've used a lot of 303 HTFG on various items---auto/house carpeting, patio furniture/'sun'-brellas, etc. Unless I'm very negligent in immediately attacking soils (dirt/road-salts/grease & oils (including body/tanning), they are more readily removed from protectant-ed/guarded fabrics, than otherwise.
(I also remember when I used to do a whole bunch of "Scotch-Guarding"!)

Often, it's the "cleaners" one chooses in the fabric-cleaning-processes that will remove not only soils, but the factory-applied protectants, as well.
It's very difficult to re-impart these factory protectants' characteristics---even if water-repellancy is one such trait.

Have you ever hosed-down any: brand-spanking-new auto carpeting?
The amount of water-repellancy, in many cases, is dependent upon the type of materials/protectants.

A suggestion:

If you would happen to have a few auto-carpet samples (I've got a few left-over floor-mats)...
To each seperate carpet-piece (or, as you did before...carpet-piece area):

-Repeat your cleaning processes, 303 HTFG-ing, drying/curing.
-'Apply' some different "soils".
-Note the difference(s), if any, in: Cleaning-'em-up.

BTW: "Scotch-Guard" (influenced), you ask?? Although I'm accused of be so at times...No, not this one:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/Scotch-Guard2.jpg (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/47542)

:)

Bob

[Mike Phillips]

Hi neat e34,


I read your thread this morning and forwarded the link to it to my friend Roger Dyer at 303 Products and below is his reply and I have his permission to share the entire reply so here you go...


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Hi Mike, thanks for the email.

We at 303 appreciate the opportunity to respond.


You may post the following in its entirely if you wish. You also may wish to reproduce the below-the-dotted-line-text as a tutorial for using products of this type.

The following applies to 303 High Tech Fabric Guard, of course. But it also applies to ALL products of this type.

If a fabric protector is intended to resist soiling, protect against both water-based and oil-based stains it has to be a fluoropolymer fabric protector. Fabrics (upholstery, carpeting, textiles, garments) treated with this type of product stay cleaner longer and clean up easier when finally soiled. Stains which would otherwise be PERMANENT (indelible) on a textile are normally easily removed with a standard spot remover.


Silicone water repellents do NOT resist oil based stains, which is one of several reasons outdoor fabric mfg’s recommend against these products, and actually bond in oil based stains making them MORE difficult to remove subsequently. In our modern society, oil based stains are the main problem. On outdoor fabrics, air pollution…from factories, utilities, airplanes, cars, boats, restaurants, bird droppings, inside home and vehicles skin oils, lotions, foods, etc.


Outdoor fabrics are the toughest environment for a fabric protector product. Within outdoor fabrics, the marine environment is the most demanding. With 303 HTFG, one has the fabric protector product that is generally considered the “best” technically. Therefore, it is an excellent choice on inside applications. The reason 303’s labeling, tech and application information is so heavily skewed toward outdoor fabrics is for two reasons. Outdoor fabric manufacturers’ recommendations and, secondarily, this is where most product sales currently take place, both domestically and internationally.


Certain things are critical when getting top results when using products of this type. This is also true with 303 HTFG. ALSO no product of this type bonds with polypropylene. I mention this here, though this is stressed below the dotted line, because so many aftermarket floor mats are polypropylene. Interested readers will note in their local Target or ShopKo or K-Mart that the inexpensive bathroom throw rugs are this material. Why? Price, of course.


Results: Results when using fabric protector products (of this type) are a matter of degree. If the material isn’t completely clean, the degree of bonding/curing/performance attained is lessened. Using such products in temperature and humidity conditions where the treated fabric dries slowly means a lowered level of bonding/curing/performance. Over application….reduces dry time and, therefore, bonding/curing/performance.


The how-to-get-top-results info pasted in below is, naturally, skewed to outdoor fabrics. However, the principles exactly apply to all fabrics.

One last thing, how to test a fabric “protector” product to prove if it is a silicone product or not. (Many enthusiasts find this interesting). Treat half of a Kleenex with the product. Allow to dry thoroughly (in the sun is best). Dribble a little water on the treated area. Silicone water repellents have good water repellency, it will bead water nicely. Then drop a drop of oil onto the treated area (mineral, vegetable oil, doesn’t matter). Note how the oil JETS INTO the material and spreads. This verifies it is silicone. Duplicate this same test on a Kleenex treated with a fluoropolymer fabric protector and the treatment will “hold out” the oil.


Mike,

If there are subsequent questions, please let me know. Thank you again for the opportunity, and thank you for the business. We at 303 Products, Inc. appreciate our long relationship with Auto Geek.

RKD


………………………………………………………………………………………………


OVERVIEW


OUTDOOR FABRICS And PROPER CARE


ALL* new outdoor fabrics, INCLUDING automotive FABRIC convertible topping, come new from the mill with a protective “fluoropolymer” fabric finish.

The reason for this protective finish is THREEFOLD:



1) To resist soiling. Compared to untreated fabrics, treated fabrics stay cleaner much longer before soiling and clean up easier when finally soiled.


2) To protect against indelible stains. Because of the fabric finish, stains that otherwise would be permanent are easily removed.


3) To impart water repellency.



No matter what type of new outdoor fabric it is, or which company manufactured it, or where, the fabric finish will diminish over time. Eventually, every outdoor fabric must be cleaned and “re-treated”. Periodic cleaning and re-treating, then, is routine care for ALL outdoor fabrics. It can be said, then, that proper care for outdoor fabrics centers on maintaining the protective chemical finish.


How does one know when it is time to clean and re-treat?


By observation.


As the protective finish degrades, the fabric’s water repellency diminishes. With new outdoor fabric (or with properly cleaned and re-treated fabric) water “beads” up like little marbles and races off. After a time, though, the droplets tend to cling, then stick and flatten and, before long, the water will begin to dampen the fabric and eventually leak..


Diminishing water repellency, often accompanied by the onset of soiling, is what tells you it is time to clean and “re-treat” the outdoor fabric.


Should one “treat” new outdoor fabric?


NO. It is not recommended or necessary.

Text from 303’s informational pamphlet on outdoor fabrics with a brief overview about care…from the 303 website:

What you need to know about outdoor fabrics (http://www.303products.com/shop303/index.cfm/category/207/what-you-need-to-know-about-outdoor-fabrics.cfm)



Short video from a 2011 television show on boating:

Sunbrella Marine Canvas Care (http://www.303products.com/shop303/index.cfm/category/375/sunbrella-marine-canvas-care-video.cfm)



How to achieve best results with a fluoropolymer fabric protector.

Performance: With a fluoropolymer fabric protector product one can expect performance on all fabrics except polypropylene.

Typically outdoor fabrics, fabric seats and carpeting in an RV, car or boat are NOT polypropylene. But some polypropylene is found in US aftermarkets (some covers, some aftermarket floor mats, etc).

A quality fluoropolymer fabric protector is safe and effective for colorfast fabrics, carpeting, upholstery and other textiles, including: polyester, nylon, acrylic, other synthetics, blends, and natural fabrics such as wool, Haitian cotton and fine silk.


Fabric Convertible topping and the better quality marine canvas, residential, commercial & RV awnings and patio furniture fabrics are “solution dyed acrylic”. Only fluoropolymer fabric protector products should be used to “re-treat” acrylic fabric.


Textiles treated with a quality fluoropolymer fabric finish stay cleaner longer and clean up much easier when finally soiled. The finish provides protection against BOTH water-based AND oil-based stains including grease, petroleum oils, vegetable oils, fats, lotions, sweat, urine, tree sap, bird droppings, food and beverage spills.


NOTE: To get best results with any fluoropolymer fabric protector product, one must give particular attention to the following:



USE ONLY ON A THOROUGHLY CLEAN TEXTILE:
Any soiling or cleaning agent residue that is NOT removed from the textile interferes with the bonding and performance of the fabric protector. With outdoor fabrics this means a thorough cleaning and a double-thorough rinsing (cleaning agent residues do NOT rinse out of fabrics easily).

On carpeting, upholstery, furniture fabric, this means cleaning with a machine extractor and, then when the carpeting or fabric is judged to be "clean", going over it one more time with water only (to remove cleaning agent residue). With garments, proper cleaning means a normal cleaning/rinsing cycle followed by at least one additional rinse cycle.



USE ONLY IN WARM TEMPERATURES:
Fabric protector chemistry require warm temperatures to bond and cure. This means using in warm weather...on a hot day and in full sun is best. 70°F is at the low end of marginal conditions. However, even at 70°F one can get good results on outdoor fabrics if the properly prepped material is positioned in, and heated up by, the sun. Below 70° or 70° & humid....wait for a better day. As a general rule, the quicker you can get the fabric to dry and cure after treating, the better bonding and performance is attained. This is one of the reasons why one allows textiles to dry completely before treating.



Hints on Garments: In warm weather, put the garment outside in the sun to treat, dry and cure. In cool weather, after the treated fabric has completely dried (and when there is no longer a solvent smell), one can put the garment in the clothes dryer for about 5 minutes to enhance bonding/curing. (At a temperature no higher than the garment manufacturer recommends, of course).


Or one can use a hair dryer, passing the hot air back and forth over the treated garment. Again, only after the fabric has completely dried and there is no more “solvent” smell. Of course, when doing the “hot air trick” avoid touching the textile with the hair dryer itself. In marginal conditions, the hot air trick with the hair dryer can be used on convertible topping and other smaller outdoor fabric applications.



Safety: When using fabric protector products, follow all label instructions, warnings and cautions. Please read product label instructions fully before use.

Note, with 303 High Tech Fabric Guard all label warnings and cautions no longer apply when the treated fabric has dried.


Label Instructions…one of the first Main Links on 303’s Home page Page:

303 High Tech Fabric Guard Instructions (http://www.303products.com/shop303/index.cfm/category/169/303-high-tech-fabric-guard-instructions.cfm)


*"All outdoor fabrics".
The main exception in outdoor fabrics with respect to water repellent treatment is nylon tenting. Most tenting fabric has what their industry refers to as a “durable water-repellent(DWR). This is actually a thin layer of urethane. This “DWR” is not permanent either, so like other outdoor fabrics tent fabric at some point needs to be cleaned and re-treated. For best results, fluoropolymer fabric protector products can be used to restore lost repellency.



*Convertible Topping:
There are two types of convertible topping. Vinyl and Fabric. Care for each is NOT the same. ALL fabric convertible topping is a waterproof laminate.

All fabric convertible topping uses ACRYLIC fabric as the top layer. The inner layer is a waterproof barrier film (urethane in recent years). The inside outer layer is the poly-cotton headliner. Fabric convertible topping is finished with a fluoropolymer fabric protector in the mill just like other outdoor fabrics. Not to keep water out of the car, but to resist soiling and protect against indelible stains.


CARE for fabric convertible topping, then, is exactly the SAME as for other outdoor fabrics.

Yours truly,

303 PRODUCTS, INC.

R. K. Dyer

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Mike's comment: Just to note, I did a little formatting to make the above generous information provided by Roger to be a little easier to read and navigate on a computer monitor. For example turning the URLs into blue clickable links.


If you're reading Roger, thank you for the quick and courteous reply to my e-mail this morning.


To the OP: Hope the above helps...


:xyxthumbs:

[rider9195]

It has definitely made a difference in how clean my carpets are. But I guess I should add another coat or two. Thanks for the help Bob and Mike!

[FUNX650]

It has definitely made a difference in how clean my carpets are. But I guess I should add another coat or two. Thanks for the help Bob and Mike!

It's always good to hear from the 303 folks (Thanks Mike for forwarding this info...)!!

Speaking of 303 products (some that are not talked about too much)...

I've found that their: "Cleaner/Spot Remover", and "Fabric and Vinyl Cleaner" are very safe,
excellent 'cleaners'; and, versatile, as well!

:)

Bob

[Mike Phillips]

Here's some more follow-up info from Roger...


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Mike, some more comments for you.

With 303 HT Fabric Guard, you should know, it is NEVER a matter of product. It is ALWAYS a matter of application. Of course, this isn’t stated to the customers. I suspect that the subject mats were polypropylene.


If not the hint here what the problem would have been then is in the customer’s own words. He said it was “cool” when he treated the material, you note. And then he talked about spraying and working in not once but twice.


Well, with fabric protectors it is NEVER necessary to work in. (nor is this advised or mentioned on the directions). The solvent used in all fabric protector products makes it penetrate much much better than water would. It goes RIGHT into conv. topping fabric, you would have noticed. Much like spilling gasoline on your jeans…..which always surprises me how fast it reaches my skin. On carpeting it’s only necessary to use enough to get the material treated all the way down. Treating twice in the manner described indicates a dramatic over application. Which only serves to further slow the drying/curing.


How good of a job can be attained in “re-treating” outdoor fabrics. This, of course, is in comparison with the original protective finish put on at the mill.

The answer is right at the same level attained at the mill. This is what you get with properly prepped material properly treated and done in warm temperatures preferably, as the label says, “on a hot day in full sun”. As a general rule, the quicker one can get the treated material to dry and cure the better bonding and curing is attained. Applying under 70F, not warm, but still one can get good results with properly prepped material if it’s not a humid day and if the material to be treated is in the sun and heated up by the sun. Even here full bonding and curing is attained.


Yours truly,

303 PRODUCTS, INC.
R. K. Dyer


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Thanks Roger, we love our Vendors that are pro-active anytime any issues arise...


:dblthumb2:





















:)

[neat e34]

Thanks to everyone who replied & an especially huge thank you to Mike for going out of your way to get some info & also to Roger Dyer from 303 for such great customer service. :dblthumb2:

Bob, good idea, I will have a play around with some samples of different materials, getting them dirty with different things then checking how easy they are to clean compared to un-treated fabric.

The mats are genuine BMW items so I assume they are of decent quality but have no way of knowing what they are really made from.

As for working in the product I really just gave it a quick, light brush in case I had applied unevenly in some areas & also to make sure product worked its way through the whole "pile" of the carpet. However maybe this was enough to cause problems?

From what Roger has said I think I was probably just a little heavy-handed with application & also didn't realise how much heat helped the 303 to bond quicker & better. The fabric definitely wasn't soaking wet or anywhere near it at all so I'm going to blame this on the weather but will be sure to apply lighter next time...
Although dry it's only been around 10-13 degrees celsius here (50-55 farenheit)

I will wait until the weather warms up then give it another shot, playing around with amount applied & also try it on a few different surfaces in case it is just not compatible with my mats...

Once again, thanks to everyone who helped out!


Also does anyone know about the leather & footwear side of things? As mentioned, the AG product page says it can be used on this but I haven't heard anyone mention it before...

[john b]

ya the folks at 303 are great,they are the type of company that will answer all your questions fast via email

[bmwgalore]

Yes, it works great on footwear.

Just got some new running sneakers this last Saturday and applied one coat as soon as I got home, just spray on and let it seat, don't EVER use a brush!
Sunday morning I applied another coat, and Monday (today) morning a third one, again just spray on and let it sit, no brushes.

Works wonders! I'll be running in the rain in no time!

Now I'm gonna test it out on some leather boat shoes I just bought, I'll update later.