Check out this technique. thoughts ?

[mg6045]

I came across this Video of a detail clinic.

In the video the instructor is stating that when using a DA polisher the pad is not supposed to be spinning. Just oscillating. Obviously this is Adam from Adams polishes, so I followed up further and it turns out that this is the technique taught on there forum as well. That the pad should spin on a DA polisher at the same rate that the second hand spins on a clock. Basically meaning that if you polish an area for 3 minutes your pad should have made 3 rotations the entire time !!!

Also, he implies in the video that if your pad is rotating on a DA polisher you will put "lots of little trail marks" in the paint.

This is contrary to everything I know and have heard from just about everyone. As well as experienced.

Mike Phillips makes it a point to always state that if your pad is not rotating , your not removing swirls or scratch's.

check this out.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3sd9L1-k3E]Adam's Polishes Clinic @ Detailer'S Domain - YouTube[/video]

[A1MobileDetailing]

He's kinda contradicting himself isn't he. By saying the DA is barely supposed to spin, and then using a forced rotation Flex. Sure the DA oscilates, but he says that if the pad is spinning it scratches, if this is true (I know its not), then why does he use a flex?

[Buckskincolt]

He's kinda contradicting himself isn't he. By saying the DA is barely supposed to spin, and then using a forced rotation Flex. Sure the DA oscilates, but he says that if the pad is spinning it scratches, if this is true (I know its not), then why does he use a flex?
My thoughts to, if rotation causes scratches then why does a 3401 work at all being there is no way to stop if from rotating?

[Mike Phillips]

I know Adam and he's a friend of mine just like I have a lot of friends in this car industry that work for all kinds of companies.


I've read information by other forum personalities, (also friends of mine), on other forums that the pad does not need to rotate, just oscillate and if that works for them and if that works for you then go for it.

As for me, I'll stick by what I've written, demonstrated for decades in person, included in my how-to book, all the DVD's I've been in and now on TV that paint is removed most effectively when the pad is rotating against the paint, not just oscillating. It's the combination of rotating and occillating that enables these types of tools to remove defects without leaving another type of swirl pattern behind called holograms or rotary buffer swirls or rotary buffer trails.


Rotary Buffers
All you have to do is think about why experienced detailers and people that work in body shops use rotary buffers and that's to remove a lot of paint quickly.

The marks he's talking about are called by one of the below names, all mean the same thing, a scratch left in the paint in a pattern associated with the DA Polisher.

Micro-marring
DA Haze
Tick Marks


The scratches can be caused by the aggressiveness of the pad or the abrasive in the product and in some cases both.

The cure to the problem is to use abrasive technology that doesn't leave scratches in the paint and to do you final finish polishing work with a foam pad, not a fiber pad and of course with a polish that uses quality abrasive technology.

Above all, do a test spot first any time you're working on paint you've never worked on before or using pads and polishes you've never worked on before.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

I have two articles that discuss the scratches that can be left in paint by various tool, abrasives and pads.

The difference between Rotary Buffer Swirls, Cobweb Swirls and Micro-Marring (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/28443-difference-between-rotary-buffer-swirls-cobweb-swirls-micro-marring.html)

Tracers Tracers - RIDS - Pigtails - Cobweb Swirls - Rotary Buffer Swirls - Holograms - Water Spots - Bird Drooping Etchings - Micro-Marring (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/22234-tracers-rids-pigtails-cobweb-swirls-rotary-buffer-swirls-holograms-water-spots-bird-droping-etchings-micro-marring.html)



Here's an excerpt from the first article listed above...



Micro-Marring - Tick-Marks - DA-Haze

These three terms are pretty much the accepted terms for a scratch pattern left in some paints from the oscillating and rotating action from a compound or polish and a buffing pad when applied using a DA Polisher.

Unlike Cobweb swirls or Rotary Buffer Swirls, the scratch pattern instilled by a dual action polisher is made up of millions of tiny scratches, some are curved or circular but some are straight, like a small tick mark you would make with a pencil if you were keeping track of a count of some type.

Tick Marks are a sign that either the paint is on the soft side, so easily scratched or the pad and compound or polish you're using are too aggressive to finish out without leaving a mark.

In most cases Tick Marks can be removed by re-polishing with a different pad and product combination.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/MicromarringTickMarks01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/MicromarringTickMarks02.jpg





The above is EXTREME micro-marring by a DA Polisher, most of the time >you< won't leave anything this extreme in the paint.

Also, in order to see this in the paint you have to be working on a dark color, it's not that it doesn't happen to light colors it's just your eyes cannot easily see it.

You also have to chemically strip the paint to show or prove to yourself or others that the pads, abrasives plus YOUR TECHNIQUE are not leaving micro-marring behind.

Here's an example of this at one of the classes I taught...

Post #9
Here's an example of moving your work on a black panel into direct, overhead sunlight to check your work. Anyone reading this attend this class and remember this or watch the "Live Feed" ?

Pictures & Comments from January 30th Detailing 102 Class (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-sunday-detailing-102-advanced-class/32317-pictures-comments-january-30th-detailing-102-class-2.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1036/Jan30Class0193.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1036/Jan30Class0194.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1036/Jan30Class0195.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1036/Jan30Class0196.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1036/Jan30Class0197.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1036/Jan30Class0198.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1036/Jan30Class0199.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1036/Jan30Class0200.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1036/Jan30Class0201.jpg


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Technique is actually pretty easy to test, simply wetsand a section of paint, use something like #3000 Grit paper.

Now try to remove your sanding marks with a DA Polisher and in one test use a technique that allows the pad to rotate at a good clip of speed and test a technique where you're either pushing so hard the pad can barely rotate or turn the speed down so it can barely rotate and then see in which area the sanding marks come out the fastest.

Like this,


Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher - Extreme Demo - Warning! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews/22065-griot-s-garage-3-mini-polisher-extreme-demo-warning.html)

Warning! Please don't try this on your own car.


I've had a number of people ask me about the power offered by the new Generation II Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher and so after scratching my head and trying to think of some kind of demonstration I could do and then share the pictures from I came up with the below Extreme Demo.

Please understand, it's only common sense that this 3" Mini Polisher is not made for or intended to be used to remove sanding marks out of clear coat paints. In a best "worst case" scenario, you would finish out with #3000 or #4000 grit paper. I chose #2000 to make it extreme.

This 3" polisher definitely has more power than the first generation offered by Griot's Garage but it's not for removing sanding marks, it's for removing light surface defects with an emphasis on the word LIGHT. It can also be used for applying wax or paint sealant to small or thin panels or for things like Motorcycles.

Note: There are more aggressive products you can use and it's possible to make a more aggressive 3" pad but in my life I've noticed when working with small pads like this there's a tendency for increased potential for haze and micro-marring when getting small. It is important to keep the surface slippery for this kind of defect removal.

And for what it's worth... I've been doing this for a few years and sometimes a little experience in the craft of polishing paint can go a long ways...


Without further ado...
The polisher on the left is the first generation, the polisher on the right is the new Generation II Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher. I chose the Wolfgang Twins because they are both very wet products and you need hyper-lubricity to help aid in pad rotation when removing below surface defects, or in other words to remove a little paint.

Meguiar's #2000 Nikken Finishing Papers were used to give me an extreme test section and I used the Griot's Garage foam polishing and waxing pads for sanding mark removal and final polishing.

Not pictured is the Detailers Pride Max Wax which I applied after polishing
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/790/pushingtheEnvelope001.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/790/pushingtheEnvelope002.jpg



One section of the test hood was thoroughly wet-sanded using Nikken #2000 Finishing Papers
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/790/pushingtheEnvelope003.jpg



If you look closely you can see a few very light tracers, in the REAL World, anytime you're doing sanding you would remove the sanding marks using a rotary buffer and/or a DA Polisher if you have the knowledge and skill to use these two types of tools for this type of work. You would not use nor expect these kinds of dramatic results from the tool I used but I'll let the results speak for themselves.

After results
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/790/pushingtheEnvelope004.jpg


Nikken reflection shot
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/790/pushingtheEnvelope005.jpg


Flipped horizontally...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/790/pushingtheEnvelope005r.jpg


In this shot I'm actually focusing on the sanding marks between the wall poster and the reflection of the wall poster.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/790/pushingtheEnvelope006.jpg


In this shot I'm focusing on the reflected image...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/790/pushingtheEnvelope007.jpg


In this shot you can see the subtle distinction between the seam in the poster in the reflected image.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/790/pushingtheEnvelope008.jpg



And a self-portraight... :D
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/790/pushingtheEnvelope009.jpg



Question: Does the new Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher have more power?

Answer: You betcha!


Should it be the only polisher in your detailing arsenal? No not at all. It's a nice complimentary tool for thin panels, small components, motorcycle detailing and anything else you can find a use for it.


Products shown
Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher (http://www.autogeek.net/griots-orbital-polisher.html)
3-Pack of 3" Polishing Pads (http://www.autogeek.net/griots-orange-pads-3.html) - You want lots of these, 2-3 packs
3" Waxing Pads (http://www.autogeek.net/griots-foam-wax-pad.html)
Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover 3.0 (http://www.autogeek.net/wolfgang-total-swirl-remover-car-polish-3-0.html)
Wolfgang Finishing Glaze (http://www.autogeek.net/wolfgang-finishing-glaze-finishing-polish-3-0.html)
Nikken Finishing Papers (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-sandpapers.html)
Meguiar's E-7200 Backing Pad (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-sanding-pad.html)

Not shown
Detailer's Pride Max Wax (http://www.autogeek.net/cobra-supreme-buff-microfiber-towel-6pack.html)
Cobra Supreme 530 Microfiber Towel 6 Pack (http://www.autogeek.net/cobra-supreme-buff-microfiber-towel-6pack.html)


I use to live life on the edge of the razor blade... now I live life on the blade of the butter knife - Mike Phillips


Had to throw that last quote in there, I made it up years ago and after doing this extreme demo it seemed fitting...


:)

[Agfan]

Wow I don't know if he was rushing but his hand technique is horrible. Stick to watching mikes videos. IME you should allow the orbital to spin. It helps remove swirls.

[mg6045]

Thanks for the follow up Mike.

Your post made me rethink what I interpreted. Maybe this is the best method to use with that type of polish and pad system.

[Mike Phillips]

Tomorrow night we'll be removing the swirls and haze out of a recent basecoat/clearcoat paint job on the 1967 Black Camaro SS 396 and I'll guarantee you that when we do the pads on any DA Polishers will be rotating and oscillating at the same time, not just oscillating.

Check it out on Thursday night, I'll have Yancy get real close with the web cam at some point. In fact I'll demonstrate correct technique myself on whatever panel works best for Yancy.

I have not seen the finish on the 1941 Plymouth in good light yet but my guess is it needs to be clayed and has swirls removed, however it's going to be harder to show before and after on the green paint.



We will be broadcasting this machine polishing clinic live!
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/715/LIVE-feed-button-banner.jpg (http://www.palmbeachmotoring.net/showcargarage/livefeed.html)



Here's our project car, Doreen's 1941 Plymouth Coupe
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1325/3PossibleCarsforTVShow038.jpg


Paul's 1967 SS Big Block Camaro!
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/PaulsCamaro001.jpg



AGO is the detailing discussion forum where all the action is!





:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks for the follow up Mike.

Your post made me rethink what I interpreted. Maybe this is the best method to use with that type of polish and pad system.


That could be.

I test everything on black paint and then chemically strip the paint to see accurately what the results look like.

Again, unless you test and inspect on black or dark colors it can be hard to know exactly how both abrasives, pads and technique are working.

Sometimes it's not fun testing products for companies and then tell them the results. Been there, done that, don't like it but not every part of my job is easy or fun.


One thing I know, it's the abrasive technology used in a companies compounds, polishes and even cleaner/waxes that will make or break the end-results.


I'll be demonstrating all weekend on BLACK paint here,




Autogeek at the Subway Auto Expo - June 15th, 16th & 17th
Chilhowee Park - Knoxville, Tennessee
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/SubwayAutoExpoLogo.jpg



Click here for more information or to post questions & comments... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/off-topic/50927-autogeek-booth-june-15-16-17-chilhowee-park-knoxville-tennessee-2012-subway-auto-expo.html)







If you're reading this and live in the area, swing on by and I'll let you play on my black paint panel.


:)

[A1MobileDetailing]

Thanks a lot for the detailed follow up Mike. What time will you start the live stream tomorrow night?

[mg6045]

awesome stuff Mike, i'll be tuning in if i'm at the keyboard at that time.

[Flannigan]

Most everything he said sounded more like a sales pitch than actual instructions.

As for the technique, I can't believe that it works very well. I know for a fact it's a pain to polish certain body lines on a car with a true DA because you can't keep the pad spinning, so how could you possibly be removing heavy defects with the pad just oscillating?

So if I suspend disbelief and say, maybe you can remove defects without pad rotation, common sense would tell me that you would have to spend more time with the pad to paint since it isn't doing as much work. He was moving his arms faster than I move when I’m letting the pad spin on the paint, so I just can't see how he was removing any defects, at least not heavy ones.

Finally, I've tried to get a DA to stop on full speed, and to get it to stop on a flat panel while running it wide open is a challenge. Generally metal will start to deform before the pad will stop spinning. So now I'm being told that I will remove defects on a lower speed with tons of pressure, and a non-spinning pad? I obviously can't speak from experience, but logic just won't let me believe that. Also considering the "Junkman" videos I've seen associated with Adams, I am not inclined to believe much that they say.

So that is my take...

[Flannigan]

I'd like to add that Mike already has shown more class than said "Man of Junk", since he didn't immediately scream about how wrong another technique is and tell everyone that if they don't do it his way they are stupid...

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks a lot for the detailed follow up Mike. What time will you start the live stream tomorrow night?


5:00PM

The cars both arrive at 5:00pm and Yancy and I will get them into position in the garage, it's a tight fit considering we need enough room for people to work on all sides of the vehicles and get the camera in for shots.

Yancy is always ready to go live, it's me that has to gather everyone's attention and remind them I'm wearing a microphone and everything I say and everything they say to me is being recorded.

:laughing: