Audi swirl help needed!!!

[courtsider]

This is an 02 A4. I have been working on this car for days wanting to Opti-coat it. The car has a lot of paint chips so I figured to get it the best I can and Opti it so it will stay that way for a while. The roof was really bad, swirled, oxidized and now it looks amazing so I decided to do the rest of the car. I used a Flex with a 101 on a yellow pad, MF pad on the roof. 205 white pad and finished with PO85 on a black Hybrid pad. I did an alki wipe down last night and out of the corner of my eye I caught a swirl. I decided to wait until daylight to correct this. It's the drivers door and two lower panels on passenger door and rear drivers side.

I went back to 205 with a white pad and nothing. I tried 105 on a white pad then switched to MF. I went back to 205 and it got a little better but still not right. I am kind of lost as how to proceed. Of course the shine is amazing but I don't want to Opticoat until I get those swirls out.

I still have 101,105,205, and PO85. HELP!!!!!!!!!

PS As stated it is very hard to see. I can't see it with the swirl light in my garage. Only at the exact angle in the sun. Paint is charcoal gray BTW.

[tuscarora dave]

That's some really hard paint on those Audis. I normally use a rotary for the correction. Are you using the KBM? That is fully priming the entire face of the pad before working a section, cleaning the pad and re-applying (priming entire face of pad) each time you move to a new work section? How large of a work area are you trying to correct at a time? I'd suggest shrinking the work area and check your progress often making sure you're not removing too much clear and cutting off the UV protecting layer of the Ceramiclear, and assure that you fully prime the entire face of the pad with product. You want 100% of the face of the pad working for you. Did I mention very slow arm speed?

[courtsider]

That's some really hard paint on those Audis. I normally use a rotary for the correction. Are you using the KBM? That is fully priming the entire face of the pad before working a section, cleaning the pad and re-applying (priming entire face of pad) each time you move to a new work section? How large of a work area are you trying to correct at a time? I'd suggest shrinking the work area and check your progress often making sure you're not removing too much clear and cutting off the UV protecting layer of the Ceramiclear, and assure that you fully prime the entire face of the pad with product. You want 100% of the face of the pad working for you. Did I mention very slow arm speed?


The only thing I am not doing is priming the pad after the initial prime. I thought I read you are only suppose to prime once even after cleaning. I am moving slooooooow in small sections. Does it sound like I am just not leveling the paint or am I putting new swirls in? I am just lost at this point because I am doing all the other panels the same and only have a problem in these areas.

My next purchase is a rotary. I am heading up Thursday night so maybe I will pick it up then.

[wukin]

You don't really need a rotary for Audi.
I guess you never read this.
Video: How to use a D/A and Rotary Buffer – Properly! – Detailed Image (http://www.detailedimage.com/Ask-a-Pro/video-how-to-use-a-da-and-rotary-buffer-properly/)
I'm sorry I dont know if I can post link other than AG's

[Mike Phillips]

That's some really hard paint on those Audis.


In most cases but not all...

Audi Soft Paint - Making Generalizations about Hardness and Softness (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/31888-audi-soft-paint-making-generalizations-about-hardness-softness.html)

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2BlueAudiSenstivePaint02.jpg





How large of a work area are you trying to correct at a time? I'd suggest shrinking the work area and check your progress often making sure you're not removing too much clear and cutting off the UV protecting layer of the Ceramiclear, and assure that you fully prime the entire face of the pad with product.

You want 100% of the face of the pad working for you.

Did I mention very slow arm speed?



Good points Dave.... here's a few more for you Scott...


DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/37769-da-polisher-trouble-shooting-guide.html)


When you're first starting out machine polishing and learning to use a DA Polisher it's common to have questions about your results and your results are directly tied to your technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems,


1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.

2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.

3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.

4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.

5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.

6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.

7. Using too much product or using too little product.

8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Shrink the size of your work area down. You can't tackle to large of an area at one time. The average size work area should be around 20" by 20". Most generic recommendations say to work an area 2' by 2' but for the correction step, that's too large. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot. The harder the paint the smaller the area you want to work.


2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's easy and actually natural for most people new to machine polishing to move the polisher quickly over the paint but that's the wrong technique. One reason I think people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they hear the sound of the motor spinning fast and this has psychological effect which causes them to match their arm movement to the perceived fast speed of the polisher's motor.

Another reason people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they think like this,

"If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster"

But it doesn't work that way. Anytime you're trying to remove swirls, scratches, water spots or oxidation using a DA Polisher you need to move the polisher s-l-o-w-l-y over the paint.



3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting but this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad oscillating and rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the abrasives, the pad aggressiveness, and the downward pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches.

Removing below surface defects is a leveling process where you need the abrasives to take little bites out of the paint and to get the abrasives to take these little bites with a tool that uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23995-free-floating-spindle-assembly-story-behind-story.html) you need all of the above factors working for you including a high speed setting.



4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much downward pressure to the polisher and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.



5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.
If you push too hard you will slow down the rotating movement of the pad and the abrasives won't be effectively worked against the paint. You need to apply firm pressure to engage the abrasives against the paint but no so much that the pad is barely rotating. This is where it's a good idea to use a permanent black marker to make a mark on the back of your backing plate so your eyes can easily see if the pad is rotating or not and this will help you to adjust your downward pressure accordingly.

Correct technique means finding a balance of applying enough downward pressure to remove defects but not too much downward pressure as to stop the rotating movement of the pad.

This balance is affected by a lot of factors like the lubricity of the product you're using, some compounds and polishes provide more lubrication than others and this makes it easier to maintain pad rotation under pressure.

Another factor that can affect pad rotation are raised body lines, edges and curved surfaces as anytime you have uneven pressure on just a portion of the face of the pad it can slow or stop pad rotation. This is where experience comes into play and experience comes from time spent behind the polisher.



6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one edge of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease abrading ability.



7. Using too much product or using too little product.
Too much product hyper-lubricates the surface and the result is that abrasives won't effectively bite into the paint but instead will tend to skim over the surface. Overusing product will also accelerate pad saturation as well increase the potential for slinging splatter onto adjacent panels.

Too little product will means too little lubrication and this can interfere with pad rotation.

Again there needs to be a balance between too much product and too little product and finding this balance comes from reading articles like this one, watching videos an most important, going out into the garage and putting in time behind the polisher and as you're buffing with specific product and pad combinations, pay attention to pad rotation.



8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Most people simply don't clean their pad often enough to maximize the effectiveness of their DA Polisher. Anytime you're abrading the paint you have two things building up on the face of your buffing pad,

Removed paint


Spent product

As these to things build up on the face of the pad they become gummy and this has a negative affect on pad rotating plus makes wiping the leftover residue on the paint more difficult. To maintain good pad rotation you want to clean your pad often and always wipe-off any leftover product residue off the paint after working a section. Never add fresh product to your pad and work a section that still has leftover product residue on it.


Pad Cleaning Articles

Why it's important to clean your pads often... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/28755-why-s-important-clean-your-pads-often.html)

How to clean your foam pad on the fly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html)

How to use the Grit Guard Universal Pad Washer (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-videos/24325-video-how-use-grit-guard-universal-pad-washer.html)


:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

I don't want to Opticoat until I get those swirls out.





Is the problem swirls or DA Haze/Micro-marring from the process? There's a difference,


The difference between Rotary Buffer Swirls, Cobweb Swirls and Micro-Marring (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/28443-difference-between-rotary-buffer-swirls-cobweb-swirls-micro-marring.html)

There’s a lot of talk about swirls on detailing discussion forums when it comes to the topic of paint correction and I’m going to do my best to differentiate between the two primary groups of swirls as well as explain what Tick Marks or Micro-Marring is and then show what all 3 types of paint defects look like.


Swirls are Scratches
First off, lets make sure everyone understands what swirls are at their core scratches in the paint.

That’s right; swirls are simply scratches in the paint. Why we call them swirls instead of scratches is because of they way they look as compared to our preconceived ideas as to how we think scratches should look.

Most of us think of scratches as defects that are in more or less straight lines, like this,

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/StraightScratch.jpg



Swirls on the other hand are usually thought of as having a visual appearance of circular patterns of some type and when we view swirls, they do have circular patterns and it is these patterns that identify which type of swirls we’re looking at and more important.. how they were instilled into the paint.

Above and Below
Before we get into the different types of swirls and micro-marring, lets address the topic of above and below surface paint defects because which type of defect you’re working on will determine how you remove it.


Above Surface Bonded Contaminants
This would include air-borne contaminants that land on your car’s finish and then bond to the paint tightly enough that they won’t wash off when you wash your car. For example, Overspray Paint, Industrial Fallout, Pollution, Tree Sap Mist, basically any kind of contaminant that can becomes air-borne and lands on the surface of your car’s paint. Above Surface Bonded Contaminants can usually be removed using detailing clay and the removal process does not remove any good paint. While we’re talking about detailing clay, one of the most common questions I get is,

“Will detailing clay remove swirls?”

The answer is “no”

Detailing clay only removes contaminants sitting or bonded to the “top” of the paint, detailing clay will not abrade the paint and level it like an abrasive compound or polish.


Below Surface Paint Defects
This would include, all types of swirls, all scratches and any type of etching that penetrates below the original surface level of the top coat of paint.

Because below surface defects are physically a defect that is “in” the paint, not “on” the paint, the only way to remove Below Surface Paint Defects is to physically abrade the paint. The goal is to remove enough of the paint surrounding the Below Surface Paint Defects to level the upper most surface of the top coat with the lowest depths of the defects you’re trying to remove.

Does that make sense?


The problem is paint is thin. Because paint is thin you are limited to how much paint you can safely remove without jeopardizing the integrity of the top coat and/or possibly removing so much paint that you expose the underlying color coat in the case of a basecoat/clearcoat paint system or primer in the case of a single stage paint system.


Now that we know,

What swirls are
Where they’re located in the paint
How to remove them
Lets take a look at the different types of swirls.


Rotary Buffer Swirls
Also called: Holograms or Buffer Trails


Rotary Buffer Swirls, also called Holograms or Buffer Trails are circular scratches inflicted into paint by a rotary buffer and usually by the individual fibers that make up a wool cutting or polishing pad. The abrasives used in most compounds and polishes can also inflict swirls into a car's finish, thus anytime you're using a wool buffing pad and a compound or polish you now have two things potentially inflicting swirls into the paint.

Foam pads can also inflict rotary buffer swirls into paint depending upon the aggressiveness of the foam formula and the product used.

It is the direct drive rotating action of a rotary buffer that instills the circular pattern of scratches into paint usually in some type of zig-zag pattern that mimics the pattern in which the buffer was moved over the paint by the technician.

A rotary buffer is not evil because it and the buffing pads and compounds used with it impart swirls into paint, it's just a part of the cause and effect from using a direct drive tool that rotates a buffing pad in a single rotating direction.


Rotary Buffer Swirls usually show up when a car is exposed to bright light like the sun when its high overhead in the sky.

It's possible to use a rotary buffer and not instill rotary buffer swirl if the operator has a high skill level and uses quality pads and products. If rotary buffer swirls are instilled into paint, a true professional will do a follow-up process to remove them using less aggressive pads and products and sometimes switch to a different type of tool with a different mechanical polishing action.


The primary visual difference between Rotary Buffer Swirls and Cobweb Swirls is the rotary buffer imparts this identifiable pattern while Cobweb Swirls do not.

Examples of Rotary Buffer Swirls
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/742/69ss4.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/742/Horrendous005.jpg


The zillions of swirls in the clear layer makes the paint look hazy and blocks your view of the black paint under the clear top coat. This reduces the darkness of the paint making the true black look gray.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/742/Horrendous006.jpg




Cobweb Swirls also called Spiderweb Swirls
Cobweb or Spiderweb swirls get their name because of the visual effect created when you place a strong source of focused bright light, like the Sun or the light from a Brinkmann Swirl Finder light onto a section of paint and view the finish.

The swirls you see look as though they form a circular pattern around the point of light but that's not actually what's taking place.


The fact of the matter is that the entire finish is so filled with random scratches, both straight and circular, that wherever you place a point of strong, focused light you'll see the circular or cobweb pattern show up because the millions of random scratches are reflecting light back to the source; this is what causes the visual cobweb effect.

You can easily prove this to be the case by simply moving your body position in a way that moves the point of light around to a different place on the panel.

As you move positions and thus move where the light is shining on the paint, it appears that wherever you place the point of light there is a circular or cobweb pattern of scratches in the paint.

The scratches are not specifically circular or round scratches and many of the scratches in the paint may be in straight lines, but with a strong beam of light shining on the paint the visual effect from the scratches all shining light back at the source creates the cobweb effect.


Does that make sense?


Cobweb scratches are instilled by all the random ways the paint is scratched through normal wear-n-tear and improper washing methods and products. Over time the finish is so filled with random scratches that the cobweb effect is the visual results when you look at the paint in bright light.

The cobweb swirl pattern is a different pattern than what you see with rotary buffer swirls because the rotary buffer swirls are not instilled randomly over time, they are instilled by a known source, (not random), usually in one detailing session.


Cobweb Swirls
Also called: Spiderweb Swirls

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/bmwcobwebswirls.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/decklid_swirls.jpg



Micro-Marring - Tick-Marks - DA-Haze

These three terms are pretty much the accepted terms for a scratch pattern left in some paints from the oscillating and rotating action from a compound or polish and a buffing pad when applied using a DA Polisher.

Unlike Cobweb swirls or Rotary Buffer Swirls, the scratch pattern instilled by a dual action polisher is made up of millions of tiny scratches, some are curved or circular but some are straight, like a small tick mark you would make with a pencil if you were keeping track of a count of some type.

Tick Marks are a sign that either the paint is on the soft side, so easily scratched or the pad and compound or polish you're using are too aggressive to finish out without leaving a mark.

In most cases Tick Marks can be removed by re-polishing with a different pad and product combination.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/MicromarringTickMarks01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/MicromarringTickMarks02.jpg


:)
:)

[courtsider]

HI MIKE,

From your pics what it most looks like is rotary buffer swirls (holo's) but the moon, sun and stars have to be aligned just right to see it.

I followed Dave's suggestion and narrowed my working area down to 12x12 and rewetting per the KBM. I am back to the MF and cleaning after every section with 105. The other problem is in not so sunny So. Fl. I can't see the holo's unless the sun is out. The Brinkman just won't pick it up.

[courtsider]

At this point I think I am making it worse. I can see the swirls with the Brinkman now. As I said it looks closest to the rotary buffer marks. Kind of like the hazy glare you get on your windshield from bad wipers.

Smaller sections, slow movement, clean pad after every section, 3 drops of 105. I think I am going to give 101 another shot. I don't know what else to do.

[wukin]

I think what concerns you isn't your products but your techniques. You should read Mr Mike Philips' posts. Most of us learn so much from him.

[Mike Phillips]

At this point I think I am making it worse. I can see the swirls with the Brinkmann now. As I said it looks closest to the rotary buffer marks. Kind of like the hazy glare you get on your windshield from bad wipers.


Is there a "pattern" to the swirls? For example do they mimic the pattern in which you moved the polisher over the paint?


Here are rotary buffer swirls also called holograms, they are worse than they look but the sun was setting low in the sky and it was hard to capture them accurately.


Here you can see holograms or what are called rotary buffer swirls...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1339/1959ElCamino010.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1339/1959ElCamino030.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1339/1959ElCamino031.jpg






Smaller sections, slow movement, clean pad after every section, 3 drops of 105. I think I am going to give 101 another shot. I don't know what else to do.



Be sure you don't under-use product or you won't have enough lubrication and this can leave to micro-marring.

Here's the deal, you're either removing the swirls/haze or you're instilling it.

Place a tape line down on a panel and work on just one side of it and you should be able to troubleshoot whether you're removing or inflicting the problem.

You can create micro-marring trails the same way you can instill rotary buffer swirls, they look different and are caused for different reasons but not a good thing.

This type of thing should have been discovered in the Test Spot, long before you buff out the entire car.

:)

[courtsider]

OK here is an update. I tried 101 on a Megs. MF pad rather than the Opt. pad. Something else is going on. I don't think I have swirls. It looks more like a haze. 50/50 IPA doesn't seem to wipe it off, Griots pre wax cleaner doesn't either but if I rub my finger on it, it seems to disappear. I am just baffled as to why this exists on a couple places but how do I get rid of it? This is driving me nuts. :)


This type of thing should have been discovered in the Test Spot, long before you buff out the entire car.

As I stated it's only in a couple places, the rest of the car is fine. The roof was really bad with oxidation, swirls and holo's clearly the worst panel and it came out fine. That is where I did my original test spot.

[wukin]

My non pro opinion:
First M101 intends to use with rotary and foam pads, so haze may seems normal.
Second it may be some polishing oil you left behind that looks like holograms but you can move it around by microfiber cloth or your hands.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[courtsider]

My non pro opinion:
First M101 intends to use with rotary and foam pads, so haze may seems normal.
Second it may be some polishing oil you left behind that looks like holograms but you can move it around by microfiber cloth or your hands.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct. The problem was MF wasn't wiping it away but my finger could however, PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!!

I was getting more aggressive with worse results. I went the other way. I put some PO85 on a black finishing pad lowered my speed from 6 to 4 with lighter pressure and YAHOO!!!!!!! I hope that door has some clear left on it. :)

Thanks to everyone for your help.

[Mike Phillips]

Sometimes it's the simplest things and all to often it's only natural to look for the complicated things...


This thread is a great example of how a detailing discussion forum works. Multiple people all working together, brainstorming to helps see a forum buddy through to success!


Very cool.


:dblthumb2:

[wukin]

Hey Mike, I'm 1 big lurker and a fan of you. I guess I've read all your posts. Heh