I can't get the scratches out of my paint

[mshanno1]

Hello!

I recently bought a used sapphire black 2008 BMW M coupe, which overall is in very good condition with the exception of random scratches throughout the entire car and holograms from the prior "detailer". The holograms were easy to remove, but the scratches not so much. I cannot feel the scratches using my finger nail.

On hand I have Menzerna intensive polish, meguiars ultimate compound, and scratch x 2.0. None of these will remove the scratches using my PC with an orange pad. I had a 2008 BMW Z4 convertible before this, and the Menzerna intensive polish was more than sufficient for removing the same thing.

Any thoughts on what to do? I will see if I can get some pictures posted.

Thanks,
Mike

[darkstar752]

I've never tried UC, always used M105, but M105 is my go-to polish for scratches like these. It's especially useful since it's a non-diminishing abrasive, and the cut is pressure dependent, so you can really lean into it.

After a couple passes(2-3) with heavy pressure, you should at least notice some reduction in the scratches. This paint may be similar to Jet Black, which is known for the top layer being soft, but after some cutting the paint becomes pretty hard but still manageable if you switch up your technique.

[Midnight1700]

Megs 105 should do the trick. The PC on the other hand may not. As mentioned, the 105 is pressure dependent and the PC backing plate will stop if too much pressure is applied. I did a 2002 Lexus this afternoon with horrible scratches on the hood where the owner slide a heavy box with staples sticking out the bottom. I ended up dry/wet sanding and finished up using my Flex. I ended up saving the owner nearly $1000 for a repaint.

[swanicyouth]

I have an 08 M Roadster, also black sapphire metallic - same car/color as yours, just convertible. I just did a complete paint correction on it recently and it came out almost perfect. I have an old 7424 I bought 6 years ago. Prior to this, I've tried a few times over those past 6 years to remove scratches/swirls on my previous BMWs (both silver) and I was never able to do it. All I got was an improved finish, but you could still see swirls / scratches in the right lighting. Finally, a year ago, I decided to look for the car I really wanted, an 08 low mileage CPOed M Roadster. I found it at a great BMW dealer. The one issue was the BSM paint. It was almost flawless in the show room, but I new eventually it would get some swirls that would drive me nuts. However, this time I was determined to figure this out. I ended up spending a ton of time at the AG website and forums, along with watching the how to videos over and over. Finally I noticed some light scratches on the trunk lid, and decided I would give it a try. What really helped me was using a test spot and really making sure I was getting somewhere before spending a lot of time working only to end up being frustrated in the end. I can tell you the best place I have found to check defects on this color is at a convenience store's fluorescent lighting over their gas pumps at night. That lighting seems to show every defect on this paint color. So, I made sure I checked my test spot there and I was happy with it before duplicating the procedure on the rest of the car. Ok, so finally I'll tell you what worked great for me:
*PC 7424 (old model)
* LC 5.5" CCS pads (orange for defect removal, white to polish (for me this made all the difference, originally I had the same pads but only larger. I got no where with the bigger pads at all, these pads are much smaller in height/profile than the same 6.5" pads, really making a difference on an old PC)
*Wolfgang TSR 3.0 with the orange pad (I found this polish exceptional, in fact, I compared it Menzerna IP and the Wolfgang was far superior in cutting and work time)
*Wolfgang Finishing Glaze( this is really a finishing polish, even though it's called a glaze. It really brought at the shine using the white LC pad)
*Technique was PC at 5.5 -6 to cut, 4.5-5 to polish using 6 to 8 section passes going a little slower than an inch per second, using a little more pressure than 20 lbs on the machine. Using this technique, the finish came out close to flawless after the first set of section passes. However, it took me a while to figure out how much pressure to use and that I needed a little extra speed. Also, I primed the pads when they where dry with Griots Spray and Shine(2 sprays) then I spread out the product with my fingers over the pad. I found this gave the polish a little more work time for the extra slow passes.

Anyway, this ended up working for me. The only experience I have is with my own 2 cars, but to me the paint seemed not hard or soft but regular. I don't notice it scratching too easy. But it sure will show every scratch or defect in the sun. I have been using Costco micro fiber towels on it with ONR and spray detailers (probably not the highest quality MF towels made, but I don't think they are bad at all) and haven't noticed any marring or scratching. Apparently, there are some soft black paints out there that can scratch just by wiping it with the wrong MF towel, but IMHO this isn't one of them. Hope this helped!

[tuscarora dave]

Hello!

I recently bought a used sapphire black 2008 BMW M coupe, which overall is in very good condition with the exception of random scratches throughout the entire car and holograms from the prior "detailer". The holograms were easy to remove, but the scratches not so much. I cannot feel the scratches using my finger nail.

On hand I have Menzerna intensive polish, meguiars ultimate compound, and scratch x 2.0. None of these will remove the scratches using my PC with an orange pad. I had a 2008 BMW Z4 convertible before this, and the Menzerna intensive polish was more than sufficient for removing the same thing.

Any thoughts on what to do? I will see if I can get some pictures posted.

Thanks,
Mike
Welcome to the site.

Sapphire black is certainly harder than some paints but far from the hardest. M-105 will tackle the hardest of paints but a good technique is definitely required. Good technique is hard to describe in words so I won't even try. I will say however that the best article that I have read that helped me the most when I was in your situation was an article by Kevin Brown.

Google this exactly, "kevin brown method pad priming and supplemental wetting agents" find the link that says "keywords" and click it to download the PDF. This is a long article but it should shed a lot of light on what you can do to achieve the results you are after using a DA polisher such as the 7424, G110V2 or the Griot's Garage 6" ROP.

[Cosmin]

I cannot feel the scratches using my finger nail.

some pressure and slow pass behind the pc should do it. just don`t exaggerate

[Mike Phillips]

Hello!

None of these will remove the scratches using my PC with an orange pad.


Thanks,
Mike


Hi Mike,

Read through the below article and see if anything stands out as far as your technique goes...


DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/37769-da-polisher-trouble-shooting-guide.html)


When you're first starting out machine polishing and learning to use a DA Polisher it's common to have questions about your results and your results are directly tied to your technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.

2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.

3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.

4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.

5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.

6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.

7. Using too much product or using too little product.

8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Shrink the size of your work area down. You can't tackle to large of an area at one time. The average size work area should be around 20" by 20". Most generic recommendations say to work an area 2' by 2' but for the correction step, that's too large. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot. The harder the paint the smaller the area you want to work.


2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's easy and actually natural for most people new to machine polishing to move the polisher quickly over the paint but that's the wrong technique. One reason I think people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they hear the sound of the motor spinning fast and this has psychological effect which causes them to match their arm movement to the perceived fast speed of the polisher's motor.

Another reason people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they think like this,

"If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster"

But it doesn't work that way. Anytime you're trying to remove swirls, scratches, water spots or oxidation using a DA Polisher you need to move the polisher s-l-o-w-l-y over the paint.



3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting but this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad oscillating and rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the abrasives, the pad aggressiveness, and the downward pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches.

Removing below surface defects is a leveling process where you need the abrasives to take little bites out of the paint and to get the abrasives to take these little bites with a tool that uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23995-free-floating-spindle-assembly-story-behind-story.html) you need all of the above factors working for you including a high speed setting.



4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much downward pressure to the polisher and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.



5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.
If you push too hard you will slow down the rotating movement of the pad and the abrasives won't be effectively worked against the paint. You need to apply firm pressure to engage the abrasives against the paint but no so much that the pad is barely rotating. This is where it's a good idea to use a permanent black marker to make a mark on the back of your backing plate so your eyes can easily see if the pad is rotating or not and this will help you to adjust your downward pressure accordingly.

Correct technique means finding a balance of applying enough downward pressure to remove defects but not too much downward pressure as to stop the rotating movement of the pad.

This balance is affected by a lot of factors like the lubricity of the product you're using, some compounds and polishes provide more lubrication than others and this makes it easier to maintain pad rotation under pressure.

Another factor that can affect pad rotation are raised body lines, edges and curved surfaces as anytime you have uneven pressure on just a portion of the face of the pad it can slow or stop pad rotation. This is where experience comes into play and experience comes from time spent behind the polisher.



6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one edge of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease abrading ability.



7. Using too much product or using too little product.
Too much product hyper-lubricates the surface and the result is that abrasives won't effectively bite into the paint but instead will tend to skim over the surface. Overusing product will also accelerate pad saturation as well increase the potential for slinging splatter onto adjacent panels.

Too little product will means too little lubrication and this can interfere with pad rotation.

Again there needs to be a balance between too much product and too little product and finding this balance comes from reading articles like this one, watching videos an most important, going out into the garage and putting in time behind the polisher and as you're buffing with specific product and pad combinations, pay attention to pad rotation.



8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Most people simply don't clean their pad often enough to maximize the effectiveness of their DA Polisher. Anytime you're abrading the paint you have two things building up on the face of your buffing pad,

Removed paint


Spent product

As these to things build up on the face of the pad they become gummy and this has a negative affect on pad rotating plus makes wiping the leftover residue on the paint more difficult. To maintain good pad rotation you want to clean your pad often and always wipe-off any leftover product residue off the paint after working a section. Never add fresh product to your pad and work a section that still has leftover product residue on it.


Pad Cleaning Articles

Why it's important to clean your pads often... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/28755-why-s-important-clean-your-pads-often.html)

How to clean your foam pad on the fly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html)

How to use the Grit Guard Universal Pad Washer (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-videos/24325-video-how-use-grit-guard-universal-pad-washer.html)


:buffing:

[fahoumh]

It seems like I'm having the same problem. :bash:

I'm working Optimum Compound II with an Orange LC Flat Pad with my GG6. I've primed the pad by soaking it then wringing it until it's barely damp then spinning it for a few seconds with the GG6. I then put an X-pattern on the pad, spread it around in the work area on speed 2 then bump it up to 5 and work the area in 4 overlapping horizontal passes and 4 overlapping vertical passes in a 2 ft x 2 ft area with enough pressure to slightly compress the pad. I'll then go over the area with a Cookie Monster buffing towel but the swirls are still there.

I tried to take pictures but it's impossible on my pearl white paint. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

EDIT: I should note my car is a 2002 Acura TL Type S but it was totally repainted 5 years ago so I'm not sure if the body shop clear is harder than factory's clear.

[swanicyouth]

You have to work on your technique. It's all technique. Don't be afraid to put some force down on the polisher and move it slow, just keep moving. Watch Mikes videos, and try to mimic him. Post back if you still have an issue. Remember, your using foam(soft) to remove paint(hard) using a polish. It takes some downforce and overlap to accomplish this.

[Mike Phillips]

Read through this and see if you're making any of the common mistakes...

DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/37769-da-polisher-trouble-shooting-guide.html)


Also,

Video: Mark your backing plate to make it easy to see pad rotation (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/49489-video-mark-your-backing-plate-make-easy-see-pad-rotation.html)

NEW - Factors that can cause a pad to stop rotating on a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/48955-factors-can-cause-pad-stop-rotating-da-polisher.html)

Video: How-To do a "Section Pass" when Machine Polishing with a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-videos/24074-video-how-do-section-pass-when-machine-buffing.html)





:)

[fahoumh]

You have to work on your technique. It's all technique. Don't be afraid to put some force down on the polisher and move it slow, just keep moving. Watch Mikes videos, and try to mimic him. Post back if you still have an issue. Remember, your using foam(soft) to remove paint(hard) using a polish. It takes some downforce and overlap to accomplish this.
I'm a little flustered so I'm going to attack this tomorrow. Thank you. :)

[fahoumh]

Read through this and see if you're making any of the common mistakes...

DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/37769-da-polisher-trouble-shooting-guide.html)


Also,

Video: Mark your backing plate to make it easy to see pad rotation (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/49489-video-mark-your-backing-plate-make-easy-see-pad-rotation.html)

NEW - Factors that can cause a pad to stop rotating on a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/48955-factors-can-cause-pad-stop-rotating-da-polisher.html)

Video: How-To do a "Section Pass" when Machine Polishing with a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-videos/24074-video-how-do-section-pass-when-machine-buffing.html)





:)

I guess I need to do more reading. Thanks, Mike :)

[Mike Phillips]

I guess I need to do more reading. Thanks, Mike :)


I've been re-doing my article list, check it out...

Articles by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/23722-articles-mike-phillips.html)



:)

[fahoumh]

I went back to Optimum Polish II on the Orange pad with Speed 5 on the GG6 and this time I slowed down my arm speed and added more pressure and it worked. I've just finished the hood and I got probably 70-80% correction; the swirls are gone as far as I can see but there are some RIDS remaining that I'll just live with for now until I get more practice.

Thanks again, swanicyouth and Mike :xyxthumbs:

[BobbyG]

:welcome:

Hi Mike and Welcome to Autogeek Online! :props:

I think everyone's got you covered.

The products you have should be able to make a dent, no pun intended, in the surface defects. Menzerna Intensive Polish and Meguiar's Ultimate Compound might be pretty close in aggressiveness with the Meguiar's product having slightly more cut.

3 things I suspect could be happening are;


Using pads larger than 5 1/2"
Arm speed
Working to large of an area.

What speed setting are you using? Dial the machine up to 5 if you haven't done so already....