M105 - Am I doing it wrong?!?

[TimmyG]

Fellow geeks,


I'm currently undergoing my first attempt at a paint correction. The vehicle in need is my summer ride, a 2000 Trans Am WS6 with artic white paint. The paint is in average condition for a 12 year old car with over 100K miles. It has some minor road rash on the front bumper that I've been debating trying to fix using the Dr. Colorchip system. Still undecided on doing that or not. Anyways, the real issue here is the swirls! They're everywhere!! So I've been gathering tools products to tackle these issues along with reading the stickies and watching the technique videos on youtube. I feel pretty confident that I can get these swirls removed. However, I'm having some minor issues that I'd like some suggestions on. Here is my report of work completed thus far...

Hand wash with dawn
Hand dried
Meguiars clay bar kit w/ quick detailer as clay lube
M105 w/ LC Orange pad on PC 7424XP (Pad primed with CG Pad Primer)
M205 w/ LC White pad on PC 7424XP (Pad primed with CG Pad Primer)
Carpro Eraser - Polish oil cleanser

I performed my test spot on my hood where the swirls seemed most severe. I was definitely getting some decent correction, but simply not quite as good as I thought I'd achieve. Some minor swirls and RIDS (I believe) remained. I was noticing while working the M105 that it was drying up SUPER quickly on me. I was thinking that maybe I wasn't using enough product. I started applying more product for longer working time and it still was drying insanely quick. Am I doing it wrong? The M205 was much easier to work with and cleaned up nicely after the M105. I've been eyeing the Menzerna products and I'm wondering if those would work better on my hard clear coat. Any advice is appreciated. I want this Artic White paint in tip top shape!

[embolism]

you need to use less 105, not more

prime the pad with claylube but not the 105. Just put 3 dime sized dots on it and go to work. If the product gets dry then you can give it a spritz of distilled water and work it some more.

[TimmyG]

you need to use less 105, not more

prime the pad with claylube but not the 105. Just put 3 dime sized dots on it and go to work. If the product gets dry then you can give it a spritz of distilled water and work it some more.

Are you saying to NOT prime the pad when applying the 105?? Good idea with the distilled water useage, I'll have to give that a try. Approximately how long/how many passes for a 2 X 2 area?

[Mike Phillips]

Here's some pictures showing what primed pad looks like...

How to prime a foam pad when using a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/35292-how-prime-foam-pad-when-using-da-polisher.html)


Here are 3 ways to apply product to your pad.

1. Priming the pad then adding product to work with

Priming a clean, dry pad is considered the best approach for using a DA Polisher because it ensures that 100% of the working surface of the pad is wet with product and working at maximum efficiency when you turn the polisher on. I originally learned of this technique from my friend Kevin Brown.

Priming the pad also ensures that you don't have any dry portion of the pad working over the paint un-lubricated. This really isn't a risk because since you're just starting out you're going to be removing defects a lot more serious than would be caused by any portion of the pad that is dry and spinning against the paint.

Plus, after just a few passes, the product you apply to specific areas of the face of the pad will migrate over the entire face of the pad and it will do this rather quickly when you're on the higher speed settings.



Priming the Pad - For clean, dry pads
Start with a clean, dry pad and add some fresh product to be spread out to the face of the pad. Using your finger, spread the product out over the pad and then using your finger work it into the pores of the pad. Don't saturate the pad, just use enough product to make sure that 100% of the working face of the pad has product coverage.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad02.jpg


Work the product around the face of the pad and into the pores
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad03.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad04.jpg


Any extra, take and apply to the outer edge until 100% of the working face of the pad is primed with product.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad05.jpg



As an option you can also prime the outer edge. This helps if you're buffing around convex curves or around panels that the edge of your buffing pad may come into contact with, like spoilers, side mirror housings, curved panels etc.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad06.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad07.jpg


Primed and ready to add "Working Product" to.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad09.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad08.jpg




Adding "Working Product" to the primed pad
Some people will recommend 3 to 4 pea size drops of product as the proper amount of product to use and this can be correct for concentrated products or working small sections and if you follow this advice make sure you are not under-lubricating the surface being worked.

Pea size drops of product
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad10.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad11.jpg



For some products and paint conditions, you may want more product on the surface working for you. Here's an example of dime size drops of product.

Dime size drops of product
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad12.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad13.jpg



How much product to use after priming

Ample
You want an AMPLE amount of product when first starting out because you pad is dry and some of the product is going to seep into the pad leaving less on the surface to LUBRICATE and ABRADE the paint

Cut down on the amount of product AFTER pad is broken-in...
After your pad is broken in with product, clean your pad after each section pass and when you apply fresh product you can cut down on the amount of product you actually apply to the face of your pad.


Too Little Product
Under-using product reduces lubricity and will make it more difficult for your pad to rotate efficiently.

Too Much Product
Using too much product will hyper-lubricate or over-lubricate the pad and will interfere with the abrasives ability to abrade the paint.


Keep in mind that you want enough product on the surface so you have,


Abrasives working for you.


A lubricating film between the paint and the pad.
Often times if you don't have enough product to work with you'll end up buffing to a dry buff. When you lose lubrication, friction increase and this can lead to micro-marring or hazing.


:xyxthumbs:

[NFA]

A light spray of water or QD spray will extend the working time of M105. For some of the deeper RIDS, I usually go over the section with several passes. That is with a Surbuf pad so I imagine a medium cutting pad like the orange won't be as effective but still can get most of the swirls out. But I get micro marring so I have to finish it down with another step or 2 depending on the paint.

[TimmyG]

Mike - Thanks for taking the time to address my questions. I had read over the thread you posted. I also had found you could prime a pad with an XMT/CG pad primer spray and save myself a little polish by doing so. That was my thought process at least. Is this line of thinking incorrect? I was giving each pad a good misting of chemical guys pad primer, then 3 dime sized blots of M105.

[Mike Phillips]

A 2' by 2' area is the norm that's recommended by most but in my opinion when using a DA Polisher like the Porter Cable, Megs or Griot's this is usually too large, especially for any correction work.

Try working a smaller area ANY time you find yourself having a short buffing cycle with any product.

I explain why in this thread under Tricks, Tips and Techniques on my Article List (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/23722-articles-mike-phillips.html)



Tricks, Tips and Techniques

Tips for working in warm/hot weather or direct sunlight (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tips-techniques-how-articles-interacting-discussion-forums/26961-tips-working-warm-hot-weather-direct-sunlight.html)

Here's an excerpt from the above article...





Shrink your work area down to a smaller size...
Anytime a product becomes difficult to work with, one tip you can try is to shrink down the size of your work area.

This means you spread the product out over a smaller area and because you're engaging the working film of product over the area more quickly as you move the polisher there's less time for the product to dry.







:xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

I was giving each pad a good misting of chemical guys pad primer, then 3 dime sized blots of M105.



Misting a wetting agent onto dry foam helps to make it less aggressive, more pliable for a better buffing experience.

Priming the pad with the same product you're going to be using ensures the entire face of the pad has a uniform film of the product and thus in this case the abrasives plus the "working product" you apply and this increases the effectiveness of the process in general.

You still need to use good technique, read through what I wrote here and see if anything jumps out at you...

DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/37769-da-polisher-trouble-shooting-guide.html)

When you're first starting out machine polishing and learning to use a DA Polisher it's common to have questions about your results and your results are directly tied to your technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems,


1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.

2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.

3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.

4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.

5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.

6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.

7. Using too much product or using too little product.

8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Shrink the size of your work area down. You can't tackle to large of an area at one time. The average size work area should be around 20" by 20". Most generic recommendations say to work an area 2' by 2' but for the correction step, that's too large. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot. The harder the paint the smaller the area you want to work.


2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's easy and actually natural for most people new to machine polishing to move the polisher quickly over the paint but that's the wrong technique. One reason I think people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they hear the sound of the motor spinning fast and this has psychological effect which causes them to match their arm movement to the perceived fast speed of the polisher's motor.

Another reason people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they think like this,

"If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster"

But it doesn't work that way. Anytime you're trying to remove swirls, scratches, water spots or oxidation using a DA Polisher you need to move the polisher s-l-o-w-l-y over the paint.



3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting but this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad oscillating and rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the abrasives, the pad aggressiveness, and the downward pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches.

Removing below surface defects is a leveling process where you need the abrasives to take little bites out of the paint and to get the abrasives to take these little bites with a tool that uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23995-free-floating-spindle-assembly-story-behind-story.html) you need all of the above factors working for you including a high speed setting.



4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much downward pressure to the polisher and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.



5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.
If you push too hard you will slow down the rotating movement of the pad and the abrasives won't be effectively worked against the paint. You need to apply firm pressure to engage the abrasives against the paint but no so much that the pad is barely rotating. This is where it's a good idea to use a permanent black marker to make a mark on the back of your backing plate so your eyes can easily see if the pad is rotating or not and this will help you to adjust your downward pressure accordingly.

Correct technique means finding a balance of applying enough downward pressure to remove defects but not too much downward pressure as to stop the rotating movement of the pad.

This balance is affected by a lot of factors like the lubricity of the product you're using, some compounds and polishes provide more lubrication than others and this makes it easier to maintain pad rotation under pressure.

Another factor that can affect pad rotation are raised body lines, edges and curved surfaces as anytime you have uneven pressure on just a portion of the face of the pad it can slow or stop pad rotation. This is where experience comes into play and experience comes from time spent behind the polisher.



6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one edge of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease abrading ability.



7. Using too much product or using too little product.
Too much product hyper-lubricates the surface and the result is that abrasives won't effectively bite into the paint but instead will tend to skim over the surface. Overusing product will also accelerate pad saturation as well increase the potential for slinging splatter onto adjacent panels.

Too little product will means too little lubrication and this can interfere with pad rotation.

Again there needs to be a balance between too much product and too little product and finding this balance comes from reading articles like this one, watching videos an most important, going out into the garage and putting in time behind the polisher and as you're buffing with specific product and pad combinations, pay attention to pad rotation.



8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Most people simply don't clean their pad often enough to maximize the effectiveness of their DA Polisher. Anytime you're abrading the paint you have two things building up on the face of your buffing pad,

Removed paint


Spent product

As these to things build up on the face of the pad they become gummy and this has a negative affect on pad rotating plus makes wiping the leftover residue on the paint more difficult. To maintain good pad rotation you want to clean your pad often and always wipe-off any leftover product residue off the paint after working a section. Never add fresh product to your pad and work a section that still has leftover product residue on it.




And be sure to clean the pad you're buffing with often, like after every section pass or two... see these two articles...


Why it's important to clean your pads often... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/28755-why-s-important-clean-your-pads-often.html)

How to clean your foam pad on the fly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html)



If you try buffing with a pad where there is a build-up of spent product and removed paint on the face of the pad, especially with a compound, buffing will tend to be more difficult and wipe-off of the product will also be more difficult.

So clean your pads often...



:)

[embolism]

Are you saying to NOT prime the pad when applying the 105?? Good idea with the distilled water useage, I'll have to give that a try. Approximately how long/how many passes for a 2 X 2 area?

I've seen it done that way and have done it a couple times using both methods (prime and unprime). I get less dusting starting with a damp pad and no priming.

Some people also mix in a bit of UC to help extend the working time.

Try the distilled water first, and if you really can't get it figured out, put in a bit of UC or even 205 (mainly for the lubricating oils) but it might decrease the amount of cut you're getting from the 105.

you've got the master Mike himself helping you so you should get it worked out soon enough.

[TimmyG]

Ok guys - thank you so much for your responses. I was wondering what I was doing wrong. I'm going to give it a try and I'll post up some before and after pics for your viewing pleasure.

[bwprado]

Hello, I haven't read every response that was given but I think I must share my findings. As you, I had a lot of trouble with M105, dusting, drying insanely fast, very difficult to buff off and also machine humping... Although I'm using it with a rotary I think the tip applies to DA. I searched the forum for a solution and tried everything people said to try. Spritz of regular water, ONR (clay lube mix), QD, mixing with M205 and then Ultimate Compound, and nothing seemed to work (maybe because of temperature / humidity) and I was almost giving up M105 when read about using mineral oil (Johnson & Johnson baby oil) and decided to tried as a last hope. And I must say, it worked wonders!!! It's like M105 was meant to be like! It made dusting decrease, working time a LOT longer, and buffing it was easy as M205! I had already purchased UNO in the hopes of saving time and patience, but a few drops of mineral oil saved the day! It must have decreased the cutting ability but I had a lot more time to work with so no problem with that... I don't recall who gave that tip but I would like to thank him. And priming the pad with the mineral oil also works beautifully!

[Mike Phillips]

Since this is your first post...

Welcome to Autogeek Online! :welcome:





Hello, I haven't read every response that was given but I think I must share my findings.




Here's the thread you reference, I'm pretty sure I posted my thoughts on the topic on page 3 or 4 and my friends Kevin Brown and Jason Rose chime in on page 5


The Cure for M105's short working time and dusting issues (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/29674-cure-m105-s-short-working-time-dusting-issues.html)



:xyxthumbs:

[Stang Man]

Since this is your first post...

Welcome to Autogeek Online! :welcome:





Here's the thread you reference, I'm pretty sure I posted my thoughts on the topic on page 3 or 4 and my friends Kevin Brown and Jason Rose chime in on page 5


The Cure for M105's short working time and dusting issues (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/29674-cure-m105-s-short-working-time-dusting-issues.html)



:xyxthumbs:

The response from Kevin Brown, which links to his previous statements, is VERY good information. Filing that away :props:

[Tundra1316]

When I started out, I had that same problem.
Trial and Error,
and learn from your mistakes.

[TimmyG]

I'm going to give the KB pad priming method a shot. I'll let you know how it goes.