Is There A Downside to Compound??

[TheGuyWho]

Ive just finished claying my own personal truck, which is an 04 SVT Lightning. The paint is in good shape in my opinion, but I can definitely see some hard water spots and lots of scratches and some swirling/spider webs. My color (DSG aka Dark Shadow Gray) hides everything very well and looks perfect until you are right up on it, very similar to silver. I was planning to use Meguiars ultimate compound on it, but is it really necessary? Is there a downside to compound? My truck is obviously not bad enough to need some M#105, and Im sure I could just go straight to polishing it, but im not sure that will get everything out. Im going to be taking a few days on it, so I want to do it right! Should I compound, should I not compound?

[smooth72]

You might try some swirl remover. I always do a test with lease aggressive to see if it will give desired results.

[ScottB]

My typical way of thinking is compound (aggressive), swirl remover (medium), and finishing polish (light). Always start with the least abrasive method.

[ShaunD]

DO TEST SPOTS.:)
Find the worst areas that you can see and test the least aggressive polish you are thinking of using and see what defects are left behind. If it is to your satisfaction then do the whole truck with that product and seal the paint. You may find that some areas need megs UC and very little polishing afterwards, and other areas only need polishing with a light cut pad to correct what is there. It is a matter of seeing for yourself and starting in a small area under 2'x2' and getting that area exactly the way you want it before tackling even a whole panel, let alone the whole truck. Meg's UC is not the same as working you paint with a traditional rubbing compound, or even modern rubbing compounds. It is more along the lines of an aggressive swirl remover, and on most paints can be finished down to not require final polishing if worked properly.
And yes, there is a down side to compounding if it is more aggressive than you need to be using on the defects that are in your paint. Just like any polish the uses abrasives to polish you are removing paint to remove defects. So on a panel that has been polished several times, compounding would probably not be done on that paint unless paint thickness reading have been maintained on that vehicle and you have a good idea of how many microns you have to work with. In some cases sanding is safer than compounding on its own and will allow you to achieve the results you are looking for faster and in a more controlled manner. I am not saying to sand your truck, just that for a professional is may be an optimal procedure.
So do your test panel and take notes along the way so you aren't working backwards and can stick to your system from start to finish with less memory required.
What polisher are you using as well as pads that you plan on matching to the products(polishes) you have on hand?

[silverfox]

There's a huge downside if it's not necessary or the customer isn't interested in having their clear coat removed.

[glen e]

Is there a downside to sandpaper?

Yes, if wrong grit is used for the job at at hand....

same question....

[TheGuyWho]

Im using a Meguiars G110 DA, and I have the same Meguiars pads intended for the polisher. Burgundy cutting pad, the yellow polishing pad, and the off white finishing pad.
I WAS gonna use the compound on the cutting pad, but I may go with the swirl remover first and see if that fixes the blems im seeing.

I have owned this truck since almost new (8k miles) and I although im a little embarrased to admit it it only gets a good detail once a year. But on the plus side I take good care of it though, always garage kept and washed quick detailed very frequently. This is my baby, so she gets taken care of. I really cant stand to see her dirty…

Im thinking that I fall into the "moderate imperfections" category on this scale:
Auto Detailing Facts, auto detailing Tips, How to detailing Guides, how to polish, how to wax, DIY detailing, do it yourself guides (http://www.autogeek.net/detailingtips.html)
So I dont think I need to use compound. However, my truck does have an aftermarket hard tonneau cover, that has a non factory paint job on it. I can tell its not a water based paint like all the new paint regulations require. But this is where I find most of the imperfections like water spot damage, deep scratches, etc… I think im going to have to compound this section only. The problem is I do not know how much actually paint/clear coat im working with on this portion because its not the same as the factory paint job.

[tuscarora dave]

To do things right, I'd say that the first step would be to determine whether the water spots are etchings or simply mineral deposits and go from there. The minerals in hard water deposits are often times harder than the abrasives found in many polishes or swirl removers. This is why you'll see detailers taking a chemical approach to removing the mineral deposits.

Vinegar does a pretty good job at dissolving or breaking up the mineral deposits so that they can be safely removed without abrading the paint around the mineral deposits, this is really what occurs when you take an abrasive approach to removing something that is harder than the abrasives in the swirl remover. The abrasives very slowly work against the super hard mineral deposits but rather quickly abrade off layers of the softer paint around them. By the time you get through the mineral deposits with an abrasive polish, you have unnecessarily removed some of the paint around them. You might not see this occurring with the human eye but it is in fact happening.

If the water spots are not mineral deposits but rather etchings (sometimes very deep etchings) the way to be rid of them is to level the paint as a whole until you reach a level that is below the lowest portion of the etchings. In this case depending on how deep the etchings are, you could be removing a good amount of paint until you reach this point and to remove such a layer would typically require a compound.

We can think deeper about this method as well.

Typically the do it yourselfer will be using a DA polisher with foam pads to do the leveling of the paint to remove enough paint film build to effectively remove the visibility of the deeper hard water etchings. The problem here lies in the fact that the foam pad is going to be conforming itself to any contours that it is worked over, including the deeper etchings. So when we think about what it really occurring between the pad and the paint, we have:

1. A DA polisher jiggling and sometimes rotating a foam pad.

2. An abrasive compound working between the pad and the paint, essentially carving out/off microscopic portions of paint thus reducing the level of the paint's film build.

3. The DA user applying pressure to the machine further ensuring that the softer foam pad conforms to all the levels of the paint's film build that it's being worked over, including the deeper etchings.

So...What he have is a paint film build that has been compromised in areas as a result of hard water etching it's way down through the paint's film build. Sometimes this hard water can etch it's way through half or more of an already very thin film build. Now you have a machine and pad with pressure applied by the user working an abrasive product over the paint's already thin film build, including the etched areas that very well could be half or less than that of the rest of the paint's film build around them.

It reminds me of this.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IA5Cv_5-g8]Tootsie Pop Commerical - YouTube[/video]

Get my point?

This is why (and I know it doesn't help in your current case) prevention and protection is so important.

Having said all that, I would suggest that you take a towel dampened with clear vinegar and lay it over an area where you have the most water spots and allow it to dwell in the shade for a few minutes. Maybe 5 minutes or so, then lift it off, fold it and try removing the water spots by lightly rubbing that same vinegar dampened towel over the area to see if you are removing hard water mineral deposits. If they go away using this method great.

If you do this, you will have just done a test spot using the least aggressive method as was suggested by the other members in this thread.

Sometimes we need to slow down and think, what is the problem we're trying to solve and what exactly is the least aggressive method?

This last sentence makes my mind go back to something that I read earlier in this thread. Someone suggested to do a test section using the least abrasive method first. Others have suggested using the least aggressive method first.

I don't mean to call anyone's suggestions out but let's look at this accurately. To do a test section using the least abrasive method first, we would be jumping right to an abrasive product first, and sidestepping any non abrasive or chemical based solutions. Granted, something like Menzerna's PO85RD is an abrasive product, I would characterize it as being "ever so slightly abrasive". It was not meant to cut defects out of paint but rather to "super finely polish" or "jewel" the paint as some say. PO85RD is also intended for rotary use (though many use it with a DA polisher with decent results) and the abrasives are of the diminishing type, meaning that they are soft abrasives that break down into finer abrading particles rather quickly. Why do I bring this up you may be asking yourself. Well...

When I think "least abrasive product" I, and I'm sure many others here go right to PO85RD. As I said earlier it is not meant for cutting away defects so it doesn't remove much paint film build at all so it won't likely hurt anything if you'd use it to try removing hard water mineral deposits. If the mineral deposits are heavy, hard deposits, while PO85RD won't necessarily hurt anything, it won't work either as soft diminishing abrasives will not abrade away hard, heavy mineral deposits. It will have been a waste of expensive product and time not to mention unnecessary wear and tear on your tools.

The acetic acid in vinegar however, will work to chemically dissolve and or loosen up the hard, heavy mineral deposits.. This would be the least aggressive method. See... There is a difference.

Mike Phillips has written about this difference many times in his articles, that's where I learned about it.

Once you have determined what you are dealing with in the way of your hard water spots and remedied the problem if possible, then you'll have a clean canvas to work with and only at that point will you be able to make an action plan to follow the theme of what is the right way to go about this project.

Long winded but in my mind it is accurate info, hope it helps. TD

[TheGuyWho]

To do things right, I'd say that the first step would be to determine whether the water spots are etchings or simply mineral deposits and go from there. The minerals in hard water deposits are often times harder than the abrasives found in many polishes or swirl removers. This is why you'll see detailers taking a chemical approach to removing the mineral deposits.

Vinegar does a pretty good job at dissolving or breaking up the mineral deposits so that they can be safely removed without abrading the paint around the mineral deposits, this is really what occurs when you take an abrasive approach to removing something that is harder than the abrasives in the swirl remover. The abrasives very slowly work against the super hard mineral deposits but rather quickly abrade off layers of the softer paint around them. By the time you get through the mineral deposits with an abrasive polish, you have unnecessarily removed some of the paint around them. You might not see this occurring with the human eye but it is in fact happening.

If the water spots are not mineral deposits but rather etchings (sometimes very deep etchings) the way to be rid of them is to level the paint as a whole until you reach a level that is below the lowest portion of the etchings. In this case depending on how deep the etchings are, you could be removing a good amount of paint until you reach this point and to remove such a layer would typically require a compound.

We can think deeper about this method as well.

Typically the do it yourselfer will be using a DA polisher with foam pads to do the leveling of the paint to remove enough paint film build to effectively remove the visibility of the deeper hard water etchings. The problem here lies in the fact that the foam pad is going to be conforming itself to any contours that it is worked over, including the deeper etchings. So when we think about what it really occurring between the pad and the paint, we have:

1. A DA polisher jiggling and sometimes rotating a foam pad.

2. An abrasive compound working between the pad and the paint, essentially carving out/off microscopic portions of paint thus reducing the level of the paint's film build.

3. The DA user applying pressure to the machine further ensuring that the softer foam pad conforms to all the levels of the paint's film build that it's being worked over, including the deeper etchings.

So...What he have is a paint film build that has been compromised in areas as a result of hard water etching it's way down through the paint's film build. Sometimes this hard water can etch it's way through half or more of an already very thin film build. Now you have a machine and pad with pressure applied by the user working an abrasive product over the paint's already thin film build, including the etched areas that very well could be half or less than that of the rest of the paint's film build around them.

It reminds me of this.

Tootsie Pop Commerical - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IA5Cv_5-g8)

Get my point?

This is why (and I know it doesn't help in your current case) prevention and protection is so important.

Having said all that, I would suggest that you take a towel dampened with clear vinegar and lay it over an area where you have the most water spots and allow it to dwell in the shade for a few minutes. Maybe 5 minutes or so, then lift it off, fold it and try removing the water spots by lightly rubbing that same vinegar dampened towel over the area to see if you are removing hard water mineral deposits. If they go away using this method great.

If you do this, you will have just done a test spot using the least aggressive method as was suggested by the other members in this thread.

Sometimes we need to slow down and think, what is the problem we're trying to solve and what exactly is the least aggressive method?

This last sentence makes my mind go back to something that I read earlier in this thread. Someone suggested to do a test section using the least abrasive method first. Others have suggested using the least aggressive method first.

I don't mean to call anyone's suggestions out but let's look at this accurately. To do a test section using the least abrasive method first, we would be jumping right to an abrasive product first, and sidestepping any non abrasive or chemical based solutions. Granted, something like Menzerna's PO85RD is an abrasive product, I would characterize it as being "ever so slightly abrasive". It was not meant to cut defects out of paint but rather to "super finely polish" or "jewel" the paint as some say. PO85RD is also intended for rotary use (though many use it with a DA polisher with decent results) and the abrasives are of the diminishing type, meaning that they are soft abrasives that break down into finer abrading particles rather quickly. Why do I bring this up you may be asking yourself. Well...

When I think "least abrasive product" I, and I'm sure many others here go right to PO85RD. As I said earlier it is not meant for cutting away defects so it doesn't remove much paint film build at all so it won't likely hurt anything if you'd use it to try removing hard water mineral deposits. If the mineral deposits are heavy, hard deposits, while PO85RD won't necessarily hurt anything, it won't work either as soft diminishing abrasives will not abrade away hard, heavy mineral deposits. It will have been a waste of expensive product and time not to mention unnecessary wear and tear on your tools.

The acetic acid in vinegar however, will work to chemically dissolve and or loosen up the hard, heavy mineral deposits.. This would be the least aggressive method. See... There is a difference.

Mike Phillips has written about this difference many times in his articles, that's where I learned about it.

Once you have determined what you are dealing with in the way of your hard water spots and remedied the problem if possible, then you'll have a clean canvas to work with and only at that point will you be able to make an action plan to follow the theme of what is the right way to go about this project.

Long winded but in my mind it is accurate info, hope it helps. TD

WOW! Thanks for that. Theres some great info there!! Im going to go try the vinegar method first and see what I get.

I have already washed the truck, clayed it, then rewashed it. I gotta be honest, it looks damn good just doing that, but its been over a year since the last polish and I think its time. Im pretty sure all she needs is a nice polish, glaze, & wax. The top of the tonneau cover will need a little more elbow grease and probably compound or swirl remover, but ive gotta test it first and see what she is going to actually need.

[TheGuyWho]

Ok, Dave, I tried the vinegar, and I got no result from it. Like I said before these blems are not eye catching. You've really gotta get up close to see them, and I mean close. I cant even get my camera to pick them up. But I can see them so I know they're there! Im going to try Megs swirl remover 2.0 and see what I get. Ive also got Megs#205 polish (which is what I think im going to be using on the rest of the truck anyways).

[tuscarora dave]

Ok, Dave, I tried the vinegar, and I got no result from it. Like I said before these blems are not eye catching. You've really gotta get up close to see them, and I mean close. I cant even get my camera to pick them up. But I can see them so I know they're there! Im going to try Megs swirl remover 2.0 and see what I get. Ive also got Megs#205 polish (which is what I think im going to be using on the rest of the truck anyways).
That tells me that they are not deep etchings but etchings none the less. What polishes do you have on hand to work with? Edit: Just re read the rest. I would have suggested the M-205 with foam finishing pad.

[TheGuyWho]

That tells me that they are not deep etchings but etchings none the less. What polishes do you have on hand to work with? Edit: Just re read the rest. I would have suggested the M-205 with foam finishing pad.

Thank you sir! Appreciate the feedback!! :dblthumb2:

[mg6045]

Test spot