Is it worth to have the Flex 3401?

[zckid]

Hi everyone, http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/thumb.gif

I currently have a Makita rotary. It's a very nice machine. I've seen that if you have the correct posture and right handling of the rotary, you won't feel its weight. done a few cars btw, and lately a very soft Honda civic.

My problem is very often not finishing flawless. Often the rotary swirls and small rids-like marks remain. Actually, i'm not detailing for a living but I would like to do so in the future.

Many of you here have a lot of experience with using the Flex 3401 and the rotary.

Feed back please
My question is whether using the Flex DA, can the finish be free of holograms and rotary swirls, especially those 1 - 2 inch marks that can be seen in bright sunlight? How do you compare it with the rotary? (noise, vibration, handling, quality of finish...)

Your advice and comments will be most appreciated.

Thanks

Zaid

[toycar18]

The majority of rotary users have a dual action polisher to finish with. The flex is definitely a leader of all dual action polishers because it is forced rotation. Which corrects faster, is safe, and finishes great. Other dual actions are nice too but may be slower. I would go with flex. Yes it will remove all the swirls, holograms, etc. that you are referring tool. The flex is pretty quiet for a dual action. It may be little be louder than a rotary. It may be a little more squirrely than rotrary but easy to use. The flex is a very high quality tool.

You can't go wrong with the flex 3401. It should be in every detailers arsenal IMO.

[Tundra_10]

Zaid can you give a little more information as to what you are using? It might be something as simple as not using something aggressive enough whether it be the pad or the compound you are using.

A rotary is going to give you the most correction ability but in the wrong hands (i.e. mine or anyone else that lacks experience with a rotary) can seriously damage the paint. If you are not able to correct using that, there is possibly something not being done or used to get the finish you are after (no offense).

That being said, from what I have read it is still wise to follow up with a da to get the ultimate finish on a paint job because it can rid of and smooth out minor blemishes better then a rotary. I have seen lots of great work with just a rotary though, since you already have it and have experience with it I would try to figure out the best formula with what you have and save the expense for when you know you truly need it and can appreciate its advantages.

[tw33k2514]

If you already have a rotary I would just get a GG DA to compliment it. It has plenty of power, and you can use the DA MF system on it. Plus you save a lot of money...

[daves120]

I am a part time detailer and do not own a rotary and can not speak on that matter.

However, I own a Flex 3401 and it is one of the best purchases I have made. It is used on every detail. Personally I prefer the forced rotation and find it very easy to use. In fact, there is less vibration that my other random orbital polisher which allows me to work longer without my hands hurting. It was used to buff a horse trailer and performed flawlessly over the 18 hours it was used that weekend.

The only downside, if it can be called one, it that you must use a flex backing plate. The company is releasing a new backing plate that will allow a person to easily change pad sizes so that alleviates the issue. Of course it is a bit more expensive but I think it is worth every penny.

Hopefully others that have more experience will chime in.

[toycar18]

I am a part time detailer and do not own a rotary and can not speak on that matter.

However, I own a Flex 3401 and it is one of the best purchases I have made. It is used on every detail. Personally I prefer the forced rotation and find it very easy to use. In fact, there is less vibration that my other random orbital polisher which allows me to work longer without my hands hurting. It was used to buff a horse trailer and performed flawlessly over the 18 hours it was used that weekend.

The only downside, if it can be called one, it that you must use a flex backing plate. The company is releasing a new backing plate that will allow a person to easily change pad sizes so that alleviates the issue. Of course it is a bit more expensive but I think it is worth every penny.

Hopefully others that have more experience will chime in.

They now make an interchangeable backing plate system for different size pads!!

FLEX XC3401 Changeable Backing Plate System (http://www.autogeek.net/flex-xc3401-backing-plates.html)

[zckid]

The majority of rotary users have a dual action polisher to finish with. The flex is definitely a leader of all dual action polishers because it is forced rotation. Which corrects faster, is safe, and finishes great. Other dual actions are nice too but may be slower. I would go with flex. Yes it will remove all the swirls, holograms, etc. that you are referring tool. The flex is pretty quiet for a dual action. It may be little be louder than a rotary. It may be a little more squirrely than rotrary but easy to use. The flex is a very high quality tool.

You can't go wrong with the flex 3401. It should be in every detailers arsenal IMO.

Thanks for your insight bro.


If you already have a rotary I would just get a GG DA to compliment it. It has plenty of power, and you can use the DA MF system on it. Plus you save a lot of money...

Thanks dear. The only prob here is we use 230v, not 110v as in the US.


I am a part time detailer and do not own a rotary and can not speak on that matter.

However, I own a Flex 3401 and it is one of the best purchases I have made. It is used on every detail. Personally I prefer the forced rotation and find it very easy to use. In fact, there is less vibration that my other random orbital polisher which allows me to work longer without my hands hurting. It was used to buff a horse trailer and performed flawlessly over the 18 hours it was used that weekend.

The only downside, if it can be called one, it that you must use a flex backing plate. The company is releasing a new backing plate that will allow a person to easily change pad sizes so that alleviates the issue. Of course it is a bit more expensive but I think it is worth every penny.

Hopefully others that have more experience will chime in.

Thanks for sharing your experience Dave.

I know somebody's selling his Flex, I'm a bit tempted bcoz it's a 230v one. But want to justify the investment as its much more expensive than 110v DAs. and to add to it, I'm at loggerheads with everyone at home regarding detailing except my little kid.

[zckid]

Zaid can you give a little more information as to what you are using? It might be something as simple as not using something aggressive enough whether it be the pad or the compound you are using.

A rotary is going to give you the most correction ability but in the wrong hands (i.e. mine or anyone else that lacks experience with a rotary) can seriously damage the paint. If you are not able to correct using that, there is possibly something not being done or used to get the finish you are after (no offense).

That being said, from what I have read it is still wise to follow up with a da to get the ultimate finish on a paint job because it can rid of and smooth out minor blemishes better then a rotary. I have seen lots of great work with just a rotary though, since you already have it and have experience with it I would try to figure out the best formula with what you have and save the expense for when you know you truly need it and can appreciate its advantages.


Thanks Tundra.

I've seen some flawless finishes on this and other forums using rotary only, including.

Mike's latest chef-d'oeuvre. (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/43684-hologram-free-rotary-buffer.html) :dblthumb2:

Well to give you an idea, I started with the hood of a Honda Fit (year 2006) in this state. The paint on Honda cars here is very very soft.

http://i930.photobucket.com/albums/ad141/zckid/detailing/rotary%20swirls/412.jpg

This is the combination I used:
Compounding: Menz PG on LC Orange pad
Polishing: Menz 203s on LC white pad
Finishing: Menz PO85rd on LC black pad

The afters:

http://i930.photobucket.com/albums/ad141/zckid/detailing/rotary%20swirls/240920111430.jpg

http://i930.photobucket.com/albums/ad141/zckid/detailing/rotary%20swirls/429.jpg

http://i930.photobucket.com/albums/ad141/zckid/detailing/rotary%20swirls/434.jpg

As you see, it looks glossy, the shine is there, so is the depth. But....

In the sun:

http://i930.photobucket.com/albums/ad141/zckid/detailing/rotary%20swirls/235.jpg

http://i930.photobucket.com/albums/ad141/zckid/detailing/rotary%20swirls/237.jpg

http://i930.photobucket.com/albums/ad141/zckid/detailing/rotary%20swirls/238.jpg

The sun was a bit shy on that day:) But still you can see there are places where the shallow rotary swirls remain in some places. The last pic does not have these defects though.

Is my combination correct? or I am starting too aggressive? The working area too big? pad priming for rotary use? Dry buffing issue you think causes it?

I'm trying to figure out all parameters. but i am limited of course.

Your advice is highly appreciated as always.

Thanks

Zaid

[tuscarora dave]

I would think that Power Gloss is a bit too aggressive to be using on Honda paint. To get the full benefit of Power Gloss it should be run until fully broken down. On Honda paint there would be a lot of clear unnecessarily removed before the Power Gloss is fully broken down. PG works well on hard paint with lots of defects. I would venture a guess that the PG is just in the beginning stages of being broken down when you are stopping with that part of the defect removal and that there are a lot of marring or buffer swirls left behind by the PG when you begin your swirl removal step causing you to do more work than necessary.

There could be a lot of different causes of the swirls that you still have remaining on the finish that you are seeing in direct sunlight. I would drop the PG all together and work with a lighter polish like your 203s using the softest pads you have. The harder the pad the worse the holograms will be when using the rotary. I have great success with the rotary and can usually finish hologram free in the finishing stage because of the softer pads I use in my defect removal stage. I have used M-105 with finishing pads on the rotary to achieve a great reduction in paint defects using the rotary then finish with another finishing pad on the rotary with M-205. In my opinion LC flat orange pads are too hard for rotary polishing although they work well with the Flex 3401 for heavy defect removal with very little to clean up after in the finishing step.

There are a lot of variables to consider when polishing paint and having a clear understanding of how your products react during their use and how your pads actually interact with the different areas of the car are very important factors to consider. An example of what I am trying to say is, if you are trying to compound a fender with a hard curve and you're using a stiff/rigid/hard orange flat pad on your rotary with a not so flexible backing plate, a small percentage of the face of the pad will be biting into a small percentage of the curve on the panel because the rigidity of the pad won't allow itself to contour to the surface that you are trying to compound with it. In this situation, the abrasive particles in the compound will take longer to fully break down because the full surface of the face of the pad isn't making even contact with the curve of the panel. You'll still be removing clear as you compound so you will be diminishing your paint defects but if the abrasives aren't breaking down efficiently your stiff pad/heavy compound will be imparting their own deeper scratches into the paint, leaving lots of swirls and holograms to clean up in your swirl removal step.

On the other hand, had you selected a softer pad and more flexible backing plate, more of the surface of the face of the pad would be contouring to the curved panel allowing for more even pressure between the pad and the panel that you are compounding, thus the abrasives would break down faster because there would be more efficient friction there as a higher percentage of the pad would be working against the paint. The end result would be faster correction with less marring and holograms. With less marring and holograms of course your finishing duties would also go faster with better results in the end.

There are mechanics and physics involved here and many folks don't understand what is really going on with them. Instead they're just running a buffer on the paint having watched a few videos and hoping that all works out well in the end. With time and experience, learning and thinking about what is really going on between the pad and the paint you'll be able to finish out better if you can understand the mechanics of it all. The cut of any good compound or polish can be adjusted by selecting the right pad and tool for the job at hand.

The Flex 3401 allows you to take a lot of the needed technique out of it as you can pretty much apply as much pressure as you like (within reason of course) to flatten out the pad on a curved or flat panel to hasten the breaking down of the abrasives in the products that you're using. Try that with a traditional DA and the rotation stops and the frustration level rises making the 3401 a better choice for inexperienced users. It is very easy to achieve stunning results with a Flex 3401 where a rotary can be dangerous and a traditional DA can be a pain in the arse to use. The purchase of my Flex 3401 has rendered my G110V2 a wax spreader.

I've been accused of over thinking things from time to time but I really think that I've got this stuff pretty well figured out. These are my findings and my opinions so take them for what they're worth.

[BobbyG]

Dave,

Great post and a lot of well thought out information.....:props:

[zckid]

Dave,

Great post and a lot of well thought out information.....:props:

I'd say more than that :dblthumb2:

[Mike Phillips]

It is very easy to achieve stunning results with a Flex 3401 where a rotary can be dangerous and a traditional DA can be a pain in the arse to use. The purchase of my Flex 3401 has rendered my G110V2 a wax spreader.





The majority of the correction work we did last night was performed using the Flex 3401 with either 4" pads or 6.5" pads. We did some rotary buffer work on the hood and around the Cat Eye Taillights and then used PC style DA Polishers and also the Flex 3401 to machine apply the wax.

Like Dave said, you can really push the Flex 3401 to it's limit without the risk of causing any harm...

Here's Jeff using a 5" Tangerine Hydro-Tech Pad to polish the white paint in-between the stainless steel trim. This only Jeff's second time using the Flex 3401 and he's already completely mastered the tool...

1959 Chevrolet El Camino - Extreme Makeover - Modeled by Christina (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-autogeek-s-car-week/44228-1959-chevrolet-el-camino-extreme-makeover-modeled-christina.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1339/1959ElCamino023.jpg



:buffing:

[zckid]

Thanks so much Dave for your invaluable insight.:dblthumb2:

From time to time, I do get to work on Honda's and mostly Toyota's. They're mainly cars that my uncle has for sale. But the Honda paint is really very soft. Your advice will help me and others a lot for sure.:props:

The car's paint was flat and plain. So, I just grabbed PG on LC orange pad. This was my mistake. Definitely, I'll not be repeating it. I'll be starting with Menz 203s and a very light pad, inspect and follow based on the outcome.

:nomore:

well, could you please elaborate on "PG being fully broken down"?

Especially, the issue of "stop buffing when residue goes clear", as PG dries very fast. So, any tips to increase its working time?



To get the full benefit of Power Gloss it should be run until fully broken down. ..... I would venture a guess that the PG is just in the beginning stages of being broken down when you are stopping with that part of the defect removal and that there are a lot of marring or buffer swirls left behind by the PG when you begin your swirl removal step causing you to do more work than necessary.



I've been accused of over thinking things from time to time but I really think that I've got this stuff pretty well figured out. These are my findings and my opinions so take them for what they're worth.

Your opinion and findings count a lot, not only for me but for others who read it as well. :xyxthumbs:Actually, you are spot on.:dblthumb2:

Thanks a lot

Zaid

[tuscarora dave]

Thanks so much Dave for your invaluable insight.:dblthumb2:
You are quite welcome, I try to do my part here.:xyxthumbs:




The car's paint was flat and plain.
Yes it was but it looks great now even with the flaws that can be seen in the sun.




well, could you please elaborate on "PG being fully broken down"?

Especially, the issue of "stop buffing when residue goes clear", as PG dries very fast. So, any tips to increase its working time?

Well, abrasive polishes and compounds of course all have abrasive particles in them. I really doubt that the manufacturers are willing to give out much information regarding the specific hardness, density or actual size of these abrasive particles other than to say that they are either S.M.A.T. or D.A.T. see this article by Mike Phillips.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23561-smat-pack-everything-you-ever-wanted-know-about-meguiar-s-smat-products.html
Some of what I understand about the abrasives used in polishes and compounds are that some abrasive particles are larger than others, some are harder than others, some are pretty "crude and rude" and some are finely milled and of a very high quality.

Some compounds have finely milled, very hard synthetic abrasives that cut and cut until you turn off the machine. Some have high quality abrasives that are not quite as hard as the synthetic abrasives that need to be worked until the size of the abrasives break down into smaller sized abrasives. A better way to say it may be that the abrasives in some compounds diminish in size as they're worked between the pad and the paint.

Some compounds have a combination of finely milled super hard synthetic abrasives and softer diminishing abrasives both. The synthetic abrasives in these compounds will cut fast on any paint and the diminishing abrasives will "crumble down" or "break down" in size as they are worked against the paint and aid in leaving the paint nice and glossy. The combination of the two theoretically will cut fast and finish well.

Then you have the "Crude and Rude" super duty compounds which are commonly referred to as "Rocks in a Bottle" and for the most part are more a part of history more so than commonly used other than by boat detailers and hacks that don't realize that betters stuff exists. I do have some and do use it from time to time on things like rough cutting severely oxidized gel coat (boats) or severely F.U.B.A.R.'d head light lenses. There is a time and a place for rocks in a bottle. I draw a skull and crossbones on the bottle so any helpers that I might have working with me will ask "What is this stuff?" rather than mistakenly pick it up and use it on the fender of a Bentley.


I believe (and someone may correct me if I'm wrong) that Power Gloss uses a semi hard and rather large abrasive particle that was designed for working with harder paints to remove heavy swirls and RIDS via rotary polisher. I believe that the Power gloss actually relies on the hardness of the paint to efficiently diminish the size of the abrasive particles in it. So on hard paint you get good cutting action with your first pass or two than with each additional pass it breaks down rather quickly by crunching and rolling between the hard paint and the pad and as the abrasives break down into smaller pieces they begin to polish more so than cut. With the rather short working time, the abrasives don't really diminish enough to finish out LSP ready so a swirl remover is used afterward and then a finishing polish if needed or desired.

If I am correct in my thinking that PG relies on the hardness of the paint to aid in the diminishing of it's abrasives then it stands to reason that when working it against soft Honda paint that the soft paint being more pliable or perhaps malleable may be a better word, the abrasives might be kind of just rolling and scraping around against the paint and not really breaking apart or diminishing by the time the liquid carrier dries up. So you'd in essence be making a mess of things rather than creating a glossy defect free finish.

I am no compound/polish guru or formulator or chemist so what I am writing is just the way I envision things in my mind. I have put a lot of thought into what is happening when I put the pad to the paint and I have spent years worth of long nights reading on these forums to try to know all that I can about the subject of paint correction so again take it for what it's worth.








Your opinion and findings count a lot, not only for me but for others who read it as well. :xyxthumbs:Actually, you are spot on.:dblthumb2:

Thanks a lot

Zaid
Thank you Sir.

[zckid]

The majority of the correction work we did last night was performed using the Flex 3401 with either 4" pads or 6.5" pads. We did some rotary buffer work on the hood and around the Cat Eye Taillights and then used PC style DA Polishers and also the Flex 3401 to machine apply the wax.

Like Dave said, you can really push the Flex 3401 to it's limit without the risk of causing any harm...

Here's Jeff using a 5" Tangerine Hydro-Tech Pad to polish the white paint in-between the stainless steel trim. This only Jeff's second time using the Flex 3401 and he's already completely mastered the tool...:buffing:

Thanks a lot Mike :xyxthumbs: