How to use Menzerna on a Black car?

[chalkupanother1]

So I received my order, and was hoping someone could clarify a few things...I've read so much in these forums, and a lot of it is rather conflicting.

I have the PCxp 7424--hydro pads, and LC flat pads---Mezerna P083----po106fa--po85rd.

I was planning on starting my 2007 black charger with the po83, and an orange 5.5inch lc pad---how much product do I use on the pad to prime, then how much for each 2x2 area? Is that the same if I need to use a cyan hydro pad?

And how much po106fa-with white....and 85rd with a blue---do I use for prime, then use for all the rest of the panels??

And it terms of passes...on a 2 x 2 area with these---I work the polish slowly up and down, then left to right---that's one pass--do I typically do that 6 passes for each section--wipe down--inspect--and repeat if necessary?

Any input would be appreciated....thanks!!!!

[tw33k2514]

To prime my pads I usually put an X of product across the pad. I then spread it around with my finger.

After the pad has been primed you will only need 2-3 pea sized dots for a 2x2 section.

I like to do 3 section passes, and then inspect. From there I will decide how many more I need.

[LegacyGT]

I have found that Menzerna polishes take more passes to completely break down, I usually end up in the 5-6 range on the DA. They should turn almost transparent (but still pass the swipe test) when they are ready.

Make sure to clean your pad often (brush or cleaning on the fly with a terry towel / compressed air).

2x2 is the right area, don't be tempted to push it too big or your polish will start drying out on you.

I prime pads by making a cinnamon bun swirl of product and gently pushing in with my finger, then 2-3 pea sized dots per section.

Make sure to do a test spot and do the whole process, then strip with Eraser or 20% IPA and check your results in the sun before doing the whole car.

Post some pictures of the surface if you can, SIP may or may not be more aggressive than you need, that's where the test spot comes in. I would try SIP on HT Tangerine first depending on the condition of your paint.

[Mike Phillips]

how much product do I use on the pad to prime, then how much for each 2x2 area? Is that the same if I need to use a cyan hydro pad?

And how much po106fa-with white....and 85rd with a blue---do I use for prime, then use for all the rest of the panels??




How to prime a foam pad when using a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/35292-how-prime-foam-pad-when-using-da-polisher.html)

Priming the pad then adding product to work with

Priming a clean, dry pad is considered the best approach for using a DA Polisher because it ensures that 100% of the working surface of the pad is wet with product and working at maximum efficiency when you turn the polisher on. I originally learned of this technique from my friend Kevin Brown.

Priming the pad also ensures that you don't have any dry portion of the pad working over the paint un-lubricated. This really isn't a risk because since you're just starting out you're going to be removing defects a lot more serious than would be caused by any portion of the pad that is dry and spinning against the paint.

Plus, after just a few passes, the product you apply to specific areas of the face of the pad will migrate over the entire face of the pad and it will do this rather quickly when you're on the higher speed settings.



Priming the Pad - For clean, dry pads
Start with a clean, dry pad and add some fresh product to be spread out to the face of the pad. Using your finger, spread the product out over the pad and then using your finger work it into the pores of the pad. Don't saturate the pad, just use enough product to make sure that 100% of the working face of the pad has product coverage.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad02.jpg


Work the product around the face of the pad and into the pores
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad03.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad04.jpg


Any extra, take and apply to the outer edge until 100% of the working face of the pad is primed with product.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad05.jpg



As an option you can also prime the outer edge. This helps if you're buffing around convex curves or around panels that the edge of your buffing pad may come into contact with, like spoilers, side mirror housings, curved panels etc.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad06.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad07.jpg


Primed and ready to add "Working Product" to.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad09.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad08.jpg




Adding "Working Product" to the primed pad
Some people will recommend 3 to 4 pea size drops of product as the proper amount of product to use and this can be correct for concentrated products or working small sections and if you follow this advice make sure you are not under-lubricating the surface being worked.

Pea size drops of product
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad10.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad11.jpg



For some products and paint conditions, you may want more product on the surface working for you. Here's an example of dime size drops of product.

Dime size drops of product
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad12.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1110/PrimingPad13.jpg



How much product to use after priming

Ample
You want an AMPLE amount of product when first starting out because you pad is dry and some of the product is going to seep into the pad leaving less on the surface to LUBRICATE and ABRADE the paint

Cut down on the amount of product AFTER pad is broken-in...
After your pad is broken in with product, clean your pad after each section pass and when you apply fresh product you can cut down on the amount of product you actually apply to the face of your pad.


Too Little Product
Under-using product reduces lubricity and will make it more difficult for your pad to rotate efficiently.

Too Much Product
Using too much product will hyper-lubricate or over-lubricate the pad and will interfere with the abrasives ability to abrade the paint.


Keep in mind that you want enough product on the surface so you have,


Abrasives working for you.


A lubricating film between the paint and the pad.
Often times if you don't have enough product to work with you'll end up buffing to a dry buff. When you lose lubrication, friction increase and this can lead to micro-marring or hazing.





And it terms of passes...on a 2 x 2 area with these---I work the polish slowly up and down, then left to right---that's one pass--do I typically do that 6 passes for each section--wipe down--inspect--and repeat if necessary?

Any input would be appreciated....thanks!!!!


Show Car Garage Video: How-To do a "Section Pass" when Machine Polishing with a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-videos/24074-video-how-do-section-pass-when-machine-buffing.html)


Copyright ©PBMA - AutogeekOnline.net® All Rights Reserved

Here's how to do a "Section Pass" when trying to remove swirls, scratches and other below surface paint defects.


How to do a Section Pass

- How to do a "Section Pass"...


Visit Autogeek's YouTube Channel for more YouTube Videos (http://www.youtube.com/autogeek)



When talking about machine polishing on discussion forums or even in detailing classes, the below questions always comes up,

What's a pass?
How many passes do I make?
What's a section pass?


The definition of a pass
There are two definitions of the word pass as it relates to machine polishing with any type of machine.


Single Pass
A single pass is just that. It's when you move the polisher from one side of the section you're buffing to the other side of the section you're buffing. That's a single pass.


Section Pass
A section pass is when you move the polisher back and forth, or front to back with enough single overlapping passes to cover the entire section one time. That's a section pass.

In most cases if you're removing any substantial below surface defects you're going to make 6-8 section passes to the section you’re working before you either feel comfortable you've removed the defects or you're at the end of the buffing cycle for the product you're using.


Buffing Cycle
The buffing cycle is the amount of time you are able to work the product before the abrasives have broken down, (if you’re using a product that uses diminishing abrasives), and/or the product begins to dry and you lose the lubricating features of the product. Different products have different buffing cycles depending upon the type of abrasives used in the formula and the different ingredients used to suspend the abrasives and provide lubrication.


Factors that affect the buffing cycle include,

Ambient temperature
Surface temperature
Size of work area
Type of machine
Type of pad material
Humidity
Wind or air flow surrounding the car
Amount of product used
Technique


Wet buffing technique
Most compounds and polishes should be used so that there is enough product on the surface to maintain a wet film while the product is being worked. The wetness of the product is lubricating the paint as the abrasives abrade the paint and cushion or buffer the abrading action so the abrasives don’t simply scour the finish leaving behind swirls and scratches.


Dry Buffing Technique - Buffing to a dry buff
There are some products on the market where the manufacture recommends buffing the product until it dries. As the product dries you’ll tend to see some dusting as the product residue becomes a powder and the paint will have a hard, dry shine to it.

Although some manufactures recommend this, it’s important to understand what’s taking place at the surface level as you buff to a dry buff. As the product dries, in essence you are losing the lubricating features of the product and as this happens friction and heat will increase. As friction and heat increases, so does the risk of micro-marring the paint or instilling swirls either by the product residue or the pad material and/or a combination of both.

While we trust that the manufacture knows their products best, when we take a close look at what it means to buff on a delicate surface like an automotive clear coat, it doesn’t make sense to run a buffing pad on top of the paint without some kind of wet film to lubricate the paint at the same time. We always recommend that you follow the manufacturer's recommendations and use your own judgment.

Everyone new to buffing wants to be told some easily identifiable sign that they can use to tell when it's time to stop buffing and it's not that simple, so here's an indicator I've always used and taught to others,

Wet film behind your path-of-travel
As you're making a single pass with the polisher, the paint behind the path of travel of the buffer should have a visible wet film on it. If the paint behind the pad is dry and shiny, you've run out of lubrication and you're dry buffing. Turn the polisher off. Wipe the residue off and inspect using a Swirl Finder Light to make sure you didn't dull or mar the paint, you usually won't cause any harm, but pay attention when your running the polisher and don't buff to a dry buff. If you do, you can quickly re-polish that section by cleaning your pad and adding a little fresh product and making a few new section passes.


UMR
Remember, in most cases the goal is UMR or Uniform Material Removal. The reason for this is so that you remove an equal amount of paint over each section and in turn over the entire car. In order to do this you need a method that you can control and duplicate and for most people following a back and forth, side-to-side pattern works because it’s easy to remember, easy to do and easy to duplicate.


Resources
The above video segment is a 4 minute clip filmed during the extended version of How To Remove Swirls using any Dual Action Polisher like the Meguair's G110v2 (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-dual-action-polisher-g110.html) and the Griot's Garage ROP (http://www.autogeek.net/griots-random-orbital-polisher.html) and all models of he Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher, including the PC7424XP (http://www.autogeek.net/dual-action-polishers.html), PC7424, PC7336, G100


How to Remove Swirls using the Porter Cable 7424XP or any D.A. Polisher (http://www.palmbeachmotoring.net/ascg-videos/porter-2-20-10.html)


:)

[Mike Phillips]

2' x 2" is really too large of an area for removing defects using a tool with a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly.

You'll remove swirls and scratches faster by working smaller areas.

You can tackle as large an area as you like when applying a finishing wax by machine but not when removing below surface defects.

As to your questions "how many "Section Passes" to make?

The first thing you want to do is called a Test Spot and it's when you do the test spot that you find out how many section passes you have to make before you get the results you want and expect.


Test Spot - The story behind the story... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/24043-test-spot-story-behind-term.html)


The big picture idea is to test out the products, pads and process you're thinking of using over the entire car to just one small section and make sure you can make one small section look GREAT and if you can then you'll have proven your system and this will give you the confidence to duplicate the process over the rest of the car.

If you process worked to one small section, then it will likely work over the rest of the car and the results will be a show car sine the first time.

If you run into any problems with your test spot, then simply come back to the forum you're reading this on and share what you're seeing in your test spot and the members here will be happy to help you tweak your technique until we help you dial-in a proven approach and see you through to success in your garage!


I recommend using a tape-line when doing a test spot like you see us doing here,

1977 Can Am Corvette - Modeled by Amy and Janna - Pictures and Video! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-autogeek-s-car-week/41292-1977-can-am-corvette-modeled-amy-janna-pictures-video.html)

Robert is my "Test Spot Guy", he's very good at dialing in the pad, product and process for the paint system at hand...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1261/CanAmCorvette028.jpg


Here's he's using the new Optimum Hyper-Compound with a Flex PE14 Rotary Buffer and a Hydro-Tech Cyan Foam Cutting Pad
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1261/CanAmCorvette029.jpg




and here,

1954 Ford F-100 - Extreme Makeover - Process and products used (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-autogeek-s-car-week/42270-1954-ford-f-100-extreme-makeover-process-products-used.html)


Doing a Test Spot
Here's Robert spraying Hyper-Polish onto a brand new, clean Optimum Microfiber Pad on a Porter Cable 7424XP

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1290/54Ford71.jpg


Note that Robert is using some painter's tape to make a tape-line on a horizontal panel and then only buffing on one side of the tape line. By doing this he will make it real easy to inspect the results on other side he's buffing on and compare it to the "control" side to gage the effectiveness of this combination of pad, product, tool and of course his expert technique.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1290/54Ford72.jpg

and here,

1972 Corvette Stingray - Extreme Makeover - Process and Products Used (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-autogeek-s-car-week/42500-1972-corvette-stingray-extreme-makeover-process-products-used.html)

Here's Kyle using a tape-line to do his Test Spot

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1294/1972Corvette072.jpg


and here,

1957 Chevrolet Bel Air - Remove Swirls - Modeled by Kristin (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-autogeek-s-car-week/42954-1957-chevrolet-bel-air-remove-swirls-modeled-kristin.html)


Test Spot
After claying next we wanted to test and see what ti would take to remove the majority of the swirls, scratches and water spots. For this we used the Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover with a Lake Country 6.5" CCS Orange Cutting Pad on a Flex 3401. The tape-line is to make it easy to judge the results between before and after.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1308/1957BelairExtremeMakeover025.jpg


Before I start, here's the swirls as captured by the flash of my camera...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1308/1957BelairExtremeMakeover026.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1308/1957BelairExtremeMakeover027.jpg


Here's the swirls as captured by the Brinkmann Swirl Finder Light...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1308/1957BelairExtremeMakeover028.jpg


At the time I started the test spot we didn't know the paint was single stage, it can be hard to tell between single stage and basecoat/clearcoat just by looking at the car, the best way it to do a test like I outline on page 10 and 11 of my how-to book, either the print version (http://www.autogeek.net/art-of-detailing-paperback-book.html) or the e-book version (http://www.autogeek.net/art-of-detailing-e-book.html).

Another way to test for a single stage or basecoat/clearcoat is to do a test spot... start buffing on the paint and then turn your buffing pad over and inspect...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1308/1957BelairExtremeMakeover029.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1308/1957BelairExtremeMakeover030.jpg



Yep... we're working on red single stage paint as you can see by the red pigment transferring to the face of the buffing pad.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1308/1957BelairExtremeMakeover031.jpg



After working the Test Spot for about 6-8 Section Passes here's the results... about 95% correction... there were some deeper RIDS everywhere in the paint throughout the car but we don't focus on removing each and every single scratch because we don't know the history of the paint job. Too much risk.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1308/1957BelairExtremeMakeover032.jpg


I removed the painter's tape and used the flash of my camera to light up the paint...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1308/1957BelairExtremeMakeover033.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1308/1957BelairExtremeMakeover034.jpg



The hundreds of thousands of scratches in the paint dulls the appearance by giving the finish a hazy appearance. By removing the swirls, scratches and oxidation will restore the full richness of color with a high gloss shine...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1308/1957BelairExtremeMakeover035.jpg




A Tape-line makes it real easy to gauge your progress by making it visually apparent to check the before side condition with the after side results from polishing.

For most paint systems, you're going to do around 8 Section Passes to each section to remove the swirls and scratches to an acceptable level.

Note that after you remove the thousands of shallow scratches what will be left are any deeper defects as these will now stand out like a sore thumb.


RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/24045-rids-definition-rids-story-behind-term.html)


RIDS = Random Isolated Deeper Scratches

RIDS
Random Isolated Deeper Scratches. These type of scratches come from normal wear & tear and there is no pattern to them. RIDS are like Tracers in that they are deeper scratches that show up after the shallow scratches have first been removed through a machine or hand buffing process, usually with a compound or paint cleaner. After the shallow swirls and scratches have been removed, any deeper scratches that remain will now show up like a Sore-Thumb to your eyes because there are no longer thousands of lighter, more shallow scratches camouflaging them.



:)

[Mike Phillips]

I strongly recommend reading the below before starting... it's also in my how-to book..


DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/37769-da-polisher-trouble-shooting-guide.html)



And you're going to need to read this too...

Why it's important to clean your pads often... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/28755-why-s-important-clean-your-pads-often.html)


:xyxthumbs:

[chalkupanother1]

Thanks Mr. Phillips...you answered my questions, and then some! I'm looking forward to starting this weekend, and will take plenty of before/after pics on the black Charger.

[dougaross]

So I received my order, and was hoping someone could clarify a few things...I've read so much in these forums, and a lot of it is rather conflicting.

I have the PCxp 7424--hydro pads, and LC flat pads---Mezerna P083----po106fa--po85rd.

I was planning on starting my 2007 black charger with the po83, and an orange 5.5inch lc pad---how much product do I use on the pad to prime, then how much for each 2x2 area? Is that the same if I need to use a cyan hydro pad?

And how much po106fa-with white....and 85rd with a blue---do I use for prime, then use for all the rest of the panels??

And it terms of passes...on a 2 x 2 area with these---I work the polish slowly up and down, then left to right---that's one pass--do I typically do that 6 passes for each section--wipe down--inspect--and repeat if necessary?

Any input would be appreciated....thanks!!!!

you described 2 passes. see Mike's video above.

[chalkupanother1]

Thanks Doug...that saved me a lot of double work!

[Bunky]

I have not had any luck priming the pad as shown (some called the Kevin Brown method). I guess I never get it to soak in enough. I end up with an over primed pad so the first work section takes forever to break down. I just use about 2x, spread into pad, and then go after it. If I over prime Menzerna, it takes forever to break down.