Help me! Can't get rid of hazing and bird etching...

[DaC]

Guys yesterday I was polishing a black Fiat Punto and wasn't able at all to avoid hazing...
Neither a lot of birds poop's that had etched the paint... I actually couldn't get corrected almost any of this type of defect on neither of the 4 cars I already polished....
BTW this car is:
- Only washed once a month
- Factory paint is defective with a lot of tiny holes
- Paint was very very coarse before claying, after it came just smooooooth....


About the hazing...
I spent 2 hours testing the hood trying to find something that did a clean job, so I tested:
- Meg's MF Both Finishing and cutting disc with D301/D300..... hazed!
- M86 with LC tangerine low profile flat pad...... hazed!
- M205 with LC tangerine low profile flat pad...... hazed!
- M205 with with LC crimson low profile flat pad...... hazed! (but less than any of the previous combination)

M205 + crimson pad is the least aggressive combination I have in hands for now...

In the end I decided to go with the Meg's MF kit..... I'll explain:I wouldn't be able to get rid of hazing anyway and this car needed some serious correction because of some scratches and etching...

BUT! Even using Meg's MF kit with GG 6" ROP (speed 5 and a good amount of pressure) I couldn't get rid of most etching.....


I'm pretty confused at this moment... was I working on a very soft or on a very hard paint type ?
I think it was extremely soft because anything hazed it......... but in the other hand... not even Meg's MF Cutting disc + D300 was able to get rid from etchings and some other defects which led me thinking it could be a hard paint....

Pictures.... terrible hazing and on the last one you can see just a small spot from poop's among many others..... sorry for the poor quality, but light condition was just terrible where the car was....

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7307/dsc06398mini.jpg
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6098/dsc06399mini.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5633/dsc06400mini.jpg

:awman: :help::help:

[CEE DOG]

I'm thinking soft paint. Did you vary your pressure with the mf pads to make sure you were using the right amount of pressure? Maybe you used too much pressure with them? They aren't like foam pads if I understand correctly and shouldn't be bare down on the same way. Did you try a cyan HT pad to remove the bird poo, etc?

I see Dave reading this. Hopefully he can pipe in with some experience with those pads. I haven't used the mf.

Could you have overworked the polish and dry buffed?

When finishing with the lc crimson did you let off on the pressure you were applying until the last couple passes had nearly no weight?

If that doesn't work, try finishing with a super soft pad like a gray or blue or gold regular lc.

[CEE DOG]

Pros, Diego is asking for help and giving all the info he can to aid in that process. Give him a minute of your time to share what thoughts you have.

Diego, I think they are all sleeping from their drunken sat. nights or else in church. I'm sure you'll get some additional feedback later today.

[DaC]

I'm thinking soft paint. Did you vary your pressure with the mf pads to make sure you were using the right amount of pressure? Maybe you used too much pressure with them? They aren't like foam pads if I understand correctly and shouldn't be bare down on the same way. Did you try a cyan HT pad to remove the bird poo, etc?

Although I had in hands I didn't tried the M105 + Cyan HT pads I also had some 6.5" Yellow CCS pads.... I admit I should but people here tend to say that the MF cutting disc with D300 is already very abrasive....
I didn't tried it because I thought hazing would go crazy with it specially with the yellow pad...
Well... I do was using a good amount of pressure but taking care not to overdo it....
Also I was using MF pads according to Meg's direction..... 3 passes with more pressure and slow arm speed and + 2 passes with light pressure and faster (but not fast) arm speed....

As a side note I really love the way the MF discs with the S6BP backing plate conforms the car curves.... it does huge most of it despite being very low profile...



I see Dave reading this. Hopefully he can pipe in with some experience with those pads. I haven't used the mf.

Could you have overworked the polish and dry buffed?I guess not... I was taking good care cleaning the pad every or every two sections... and as I was not hitting with much passes each section, I'm pretty sure I wasn't buffing it dry...



When finishing with the lc crimson did you let off on the pressure you were applying until the last couple passes had nearly no weight? I did 4 moderated pressure passes + 2 light pressure but haven't gone to no weight....
Alone M205 + crimson didn't do a thing to heavier defects...



If that doesn't work, try finishing with a super soft pad like a gray or blue or gold regular lc.These are making to my next shopping cart along with po85rd suggested by you... I'm just waiting for a free shipping or black friday promo.... :dblthumb2:
Does AG even makes a black friday promotion ?



Pros, Diego is asking for help and giving all the info he can to aid in that process. Give him a minute of your time to share what thoughts you have.

Diego, I think they are all sleeping from their drunken sat. nights or else in church. I'm sure you'll get some additional feedback later today.
Haha I hope so!! Thank you very much for your help!
I realized AG guys are more likely to type at night..... =]

[CEE DOG]

Thanks for all the answers. That helps to eliminate and narrow down the possibilities.




Does AG even makes a black friday promotion ?



I must be getting old! For some reason I couldn't remember but google is my professor. I found this from 09. It was 15% off and free shipping over 75$.




Haha I hope so!! Thank you very much for your help!


My pleasure :)






I realized AG guys are more likely to type at night..... =]

LOL! Im the MAN

[PAR Detailing]

Do you have an orange pad? If so try 205 and an orange pad. That is what I used on a red mustang that had hazing after the compounding step. The lesser aggressive combinations wouldn't remove it.

So you might have an issue where you aren't going aggressive enough... Or everything you have is too aggressive because the paint is really soft.

Just some ideas

[slickooz]

Maybe you can get some Menzerna po85rd, I haven't used it yet but everyone says it finish down nicely.

[tuscarora dave]

The areas where the bird droppings have etched the paint have gone beyond just etchings. They have become what some refer to as checking. That is where the acidic nature of the bird droppings have etched into the paint to the point that the clear becomes fractured or just all cracked up.

It kind of resembles the ground where a drought has dried up what was once a body of water such as in the image below.

http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/tuscaroradave/220px-Drought.jpg

I have done testing on similar checking where a bird dropping eventually causes the paint to fracture like this by wet sanding to see just how far down the fracturing goes into the paint. It has been my findings that the fracturing/checking/cracking (whatever you want to call it) typically goes clean through the clear and well into the base or color paint with some even going through the base paint clean into the primer.

In short, there is nothing that you can do by compounding or polishing to make it go away. It is time to have the vehicle repainted or just learn to deal with it. As far as dealing with it goes, I have done this. After you have gotten the hazing (which if more than just hazing) worked out and you are satisfied with the rest of the finish, work to get all of the polishing residue out of the fractures/cracks/checking to make the area less noticeable.

Sometimes in detailing the best we can do in a situation like this is to "deceive the eye". What "the eye" really sees in this situation is the contrast of the white polish residue crammed down onto the cracks against the backdrop of a black paint finish. Remove the white and all you see in the black regardless of the checking. A trained eye or a very close inspection of the area will always reveal the defect but it can be made to be much less noticeable.

What I do to get rid of the polish residue in bird dropping checking is to first repolish that area with M-205 on a small pad such as a 4 inch pad, you can even do this by hand. The purpose of repolishing is not to try to improve the looks at all because you really can't improve it by polishing, rather just to allow the polishing oils in the M-205 to rehydrate and soften up the dried polish residue that is in between the tiny cracked up sections of paint in the area with the checking. You essentially could use baby oil on a cotton ball for this as well but m-205 is oily so it will work too. Keep the area wet with polish then once you're reasonably sure that the residue has been rehydrated and softened up wipe off the excess residue and before the residue in the cracks has a chance to dry up apply some APC to the effected area to break down or dissolve the oily residue then blast the broken down or dissolved residue out of the cracks using a hose nozzle that concentrates a thin stream of water such as the one in the image below.

http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/tuscaroradave/hose_nozzle.jpg

you may need to repeat this process until all of the residue is removed as it can sometimes be stubborn.

Now that all of the white polish residue has been thoroughly cleaned out of the checking you'll need to apply a "clear" LSP such as Opti-Seal or UPGP.

http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/tuscaroradave/index.jpg

If you use Carnauba paste wax or anything with carnauba in it, it will look good now but rest assured it will dry with a light colored residue and the checking will reappear as a white residue against the backdrop of black paint and all of this would be for nothing.


The hazing issue looks to me to be the result of contamination in your pads whether it be dirt or abrasives from a more aggressive compound previously used with the pads you are using to try to finish with. It could very well be a piece or pieces of clear that may have flaked off from the checking and have gotten imbedded into your pad. Try a brand new finishing pad with M-205 in an area that has no checking and see if this clears up the issue. You could have simply got some dust on your work area and picked it up with the pad as well. Work as clean as you possibly can. Try a known clean pad and wipe the area clean with a QD immediately before polishing that area and see if that helps you to get the finish that you are after.

[DaC]

I must be getting old! For some reason I couldn't remember but google is my professor. I found this from 09. It was 15% off and free shipping over 75$.

Well... if they do it again this year, it's good enough and my shopping cart can finally go empty on more time... :dblthumb2:


Do you have an orange pad? If so try 205 and an orange pad. That is what I used on a red mustang that had hazing after the compounding step. The lesser aggressive combinations wouldn't remove it.

So you might have an issue where you aren't going aggressive enough... Or everything you have is too aggressive because the paint is really soft.

Just some ideas
I don't have any orange or open cell pad but the yellow one... they're in my cart right now waiting for a free shipping....



Maybe you can get some Menzerna po85rd, I haven't used it yet but everyone says it finish down nicely.

Yes, I'll try that as soon a free shipping pops... =]


The areas where the bird droppings have etched the paint have gone beyond just etchings. They have become what some refer to as checking. That is where the acidic nature of the bird droppings have etched into the paint to the point that the clear becomes fractured or just all cracked up.
Ouch! I was fearing this....
But I already warned my friend as he's selling the car to buy a new one.... I said "As soon as you buy the new car, bring it to me so I can wax it, I won't charge a thing! And please don't take 1 month to wash your car even because it's parked outside all the time"

He had the type of thought: "well it's gonna rain so I won't wash or wax the car because it will get dirty anyway" :bash: :doh: :bash:
But I think as this one was his first car, it was already enough so he can learn the lesson......



I have done testing on similar checking where a bird dropping eventually causes the paint to fracture like this by wet sanding to see just how far down the fracturing goes into the paint. It has been my findings that the fracturing/checking/cracking (whatever you want to call it) typically goes clean through the clear and well into the base or color paint with some even going through the base paint clean into the primer.

In short, there is nothing that you can do by compounding or polishing to make it go away. What D heck these damn birds eat man ?!?!?!?
I mean... a little poop and it goes through the clear........
Thank you so much for sharing this info... I had no idea poops could go that deep into the paint...



As far as dealing with it goes, I have done this...
...Very nice tip! :dblthumb2: :dblthumb2:
My friend's car was so full of checking in every panel that I wouldn't dare to do this... it would take tons of time..... lol....



The hazing issue looks to me to be the result of contamination in your pads whether it be dirt or abrasives from a more aggressive compound previously used with the pads you are using to try to finish with. It could very well be a piece or pieces of clear that may have flaked off from the checking and have gotten imbedded into your pad. Try a brand new finishing pad with M-205 in an area that has no checking and see if this clears up the issue. You could have simply got some dust on your work area and picked it up with the pad as well. Work as clean as you possibly can. Try a known clean pad and wipe the area clean with a QD immediately before polishing that area and see if that helps you to get the finish that you are after.Well... the car was washed in a car wash, then I went to his garage and washed again the car.... and it was clayed very carefully...
My MF kit was brand new.... as my crimson... tangerine pads were my 2nd time using them...
The hazing was there even in the first test spot where there wasn't any checking.
The garage I was working is pretty clean and inside a building.
I really don't believe it was a matter of contamination.... but just to be sure, I'll double check when washing my pads....

[fredcandetail]

You have soft paint amigo
I did a jeep the other day and the same thing .. I went from orange pad 105 to MF 105 to Surbuf to 105 and then wool and 105 and it just kept getting worse ... So then I tested another panel with a yellow megs pad and 105 mix (9oz + 3 oz 205) and it was the key
Sometimes we think all paints are going to require a ton of effort and an aggressive plan of attack ... In this case it didnt
Step it down in abrasiveness and pad

[AeroCleanse]

I am working on my mothers car that has very soft paint, I have tried lots of combos, and what I found worked for me at least is CG V38 on a grey LC Compressor pad

[DaC]

You have soft paint amigo
I did a jeep the other day and the same thing .. I went from orange pad 105 to MF 105 to Surbuf to 105 and then wool and 105 and it just kept getting worse ... So then I tested another panel with a yellow megs pad and 105 mix (9oz + 3 oz 205) and it was the key
Sometimes we think all paints are going to require a ton of effort and an aggressive plan of attack ... In this case it didnt
Step it down in abrasiveness and pad
Thanks for sharing.... I need another shopping session as m205 + crimson was my least aggressive...
And as 07 z-oh-6 (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/members/07-z-oh-6.html) has already commented in another post, he says that HT pads won't finish well in soft paints, that's why I'm jumping on some open cell pads as well for my next cart...
So how's this combination of m105 + m205 working ?

[DaC]

I am working on my mothers car that has very soft paint, I have tried lots of combos, and what I found worked for me at least is CG V38 on a grey LC Compressor pad
Very nice!

I'll give m205 another try with crimson pad next time I have this problem
Tips to acheive a flawless finish with M205 and a DA polisher - Autopia Forums - Auto Detailing & Car Care Discussion Forum (http://www.autopiaforums.com/forums/polishing-da-polisher/36891-tips-acheive-flawless-finish-m205-da-polisher.html)
I'll take a good look at this thread
and make sure I keep it in mind next time I find this issue... :dblthumb2:

[addr6]

Finish with a black pad and sonax paint cleaner using a PC medium pressure speed 3.